Teaching Kids to be Dumb Adults
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Welcome to the new way of government. Ignorant, dogmatic subjects are easier to control than thinking citizens, and control is the means to profit.
True that, but i would argue that a college education is almost required to get any decent job. There are jobs, but unfortunately for the vast numbers of art history and other likewise majors, there arent. Nobody told them that they won't get a job as an appraiser or museum curator when they graduate if they have no connections. But they also didn't look at the job market for their particular field of study either. Computer science and software related jobs are in high demand right now. If those people had done some very basic market research when deciding their field of study, maybe they would have realized that their major wouldn't get them anywhere other than into debt. My case is not quite as extreme, but I switched from studying aerospace engineering to civil engineering because of the job opportunities. None of my friends who were aerospace engineers have work in that industry, and the ones who are working are lab assistants or doing graduate research.Deshara said:
tldr: there are all sorts of stupid things wrong with everything
The issue is a real one. Education teaches kids what to think, and how to think about it. To cite one example, for my Design and Technology class your main project is to design and build anything you want. But they outright tell you the motive you ought to have - in this case, marketing and profitability. They often railroad you into a particular mode of thinking. They also instil conformity in behaviour and attitudes, and discourage asking questions. It's just a fact about how the education system works.
I wouldn't necessarily be that cynical, although it depends on where you live. I am convinced that the world is run by the incompetent more than the malicious - although there is definitely both there. It's more stupidity in leaders, and not authoritarianism, that leads to these things.spartan231490 said:
Whoah, there is a hell of a lot of posturing in this thread.
Trying to prove how superior your developed capacity for abstract thinking is compared to children, and how woefully underprepared teachers and substitutes are to handle the incredibly difficult task of teaching children how to think in a critical manner?
Ironic that such posturing is happening while the original post provides opening discussion about a lack of development in children relating to critical thinking. Maybe "Teaching kids to be dumb adults" is more than just 'dumb adults' Mmm?
Even going as far as to example a trick question which is as much a riddle as it is a test. Answering it towards minimums in logic demands an inability to analyse the question, failing to see that the question misses information relating to it's answer. To answer 'correctly' you need to either assume the missing information and substitute your assumption as the answer, or recall verbatim the answer already given to you. Both approaches finalises the question without understanding the context, which paves the way for a natural tendency towards disregard for critical thinking.
Answering the trick question by either dismissing it, or answering with a question relating to the missing information, can be considered a 'failure' which as a child is generally frowned upon by it's teachers. Surely, everyone knows that a teacher frowning upon a child is usually a bad experience for the child? Pity all those harsh feelings mask the true damage done to the child; Answering incorrectly will have a very high chance of making the child feel shame for their will to question, making them prefer the 'correct' choice over the 'incorrect' choice.
See the problem with this?
Oh, wait, no you don't. I see some political rambling going on in this thread too. Well, it is all pointless in the end if you are going as far as to mash politics in with schooling, right? As much as it can be true that the road to politics starts in school, assuming that school functions by politics is a rough deal indeed, as the reality is more insidious than may be imagined.
My own experience of being schooled was a hilariously harrowing affair for not only myself, but my teachers as well. My ceaseless will to question always made me 'incorrect' and a 'failure' more times than was really needed and resulted in me excelling in what I wasn't good at, and utterly failing in what I was good at. Sure was confusing when my teachers didn't get what they expected, hah.
As such, any standpoint that asserts that the schooling system for many parts of the world is too standardised to properly handle those children that fall outside of the expected norms is an assertion that I entirely support. I would recommend not focusing on how the schooling system fails though, I'd instead like attentions to be focused on shortcomings of the system and how it can be improved. Attempting to overhaul such an extensive system in a half-assed way is entirely the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.
Trying to prove how superior your developed capacity for abstract thinking is compared to children, and how woefully underprepared teachers and substitutes are to handle the incredibly difficult task of teaching children how to think in a critical manner?
Ironic that such posturing is happening while the original post provides opening discussion about a lack of development in children relating to critical thinking. Maybe "Teaching kids to be dumb adults" is more than just 'dumb adults' Mmm?
Even going as far as to example a trick question which is as much a riddle as it is a test. Answering it towards minimums in logic demands an inability to analyse the question, failing to see that the question misses information relating to it's answer. To answer 'correctly' you need to either assume the missing information and substitute your assumption as the answer, or recall verbatim the answer already given to you. Both approaches finalises the question without understanding the context, which paves the way for a natural tendency towards disregard for critical thinking.
Answering the trick question by either dismissing it, or answering with a question relating to the missing information, can be considered a 'failure' which as a child is generally frowned upon by it's teachers. Surely, everyone knows that a teacher frowning upon a child is usually a bad experience for the child? Pity all those harsh feelings mask the true damage done to the child; Answering incorrectly will have a very high chance of making the child feel shame for their will to question, making them prefer the 'correct' choice over the 'incorrect' choice.
See the problem with this?
Oh, wait, no you don't. I see some political rambling going on in this thread too. Well, it is all pointless in the end if you are going as far as to mash politics in with schooling, right? As much as it can be true that the road to politics starts in school, assuming that school functions by politics is a rough deal indeed, as the reality is more insidious than may be imagined.
My own experience of being schooled was a hilariously harrowing affair for not only myself, but my teachers as well. My ceaseless will to question always made me 'incorrect' and a 'failure' more times than was really needed and resulted in me excelling in what I wasn't good at, and utterly failing in what I was good at. Sure was confusing when my teachers didn't get what they expected, hah.
As such, any standpoint that asserts that the schooling system for many parts of the world is too standardised to properly handle those children that fall outside of the expected norms is an assertion that I entirely support. I would recommend not focusing on how the schooling system fails though, I'd instead like attentions to be focused on shortcomings of the system and how it can be improved. Attempting to overhaul such an extensive system in a half-assed way is entirely the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.
It's not cynical. The incompetent could not accomplish what world leaders have done against their people. You think incompetence is the reason governments keep getting bigger and bigger, keep leading the world into war after war, ect out of incompetence? Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while, but never politicians . . . that's a hell of a coincidence streaming from incompetence.Annihilist said:
The Patriot Act. Unbelievable that they called it that. You are not a PATRIOT if you don't support the PATRIOT act. It's just so in your face and not subtle at all. I'd argue No Child Left Behind is worse in the long term. They are waging a war on true intelligence and brilliance. Look at Steve Jobs. He said, I quote "they almost beat it out of me", referring to his curiosity. But he was lucky enough to have some teachers, back when it was a more respected position, when there were more people who actually wanted to teach. There are some fine teachers today, don't get me wrong.EternallyBored said:
But the job is made extremely stressful when you don't hire enough of them. There are a lot of kids in our country, we need more people, and I mean significantly more people attending to them. Fire some people to make room for the good ones, the unions are the worst thing to ever happen to the education system.
In fact I want to go beyond that. I want to dramatically cut spending on stupid bullshit like more nuclear bombs and other weapons and create a thousand new programs for kids, and aid to young people in getting their lives started. In France, they have babysitters for new mothers, paid for by the state. That's just one thing that Americans would think "That is fucking crazy".
But the system here isn't built like that. It's a rigid, no tolerance environment, and people get exposed to that very early and until they die.
It forces people to do horrible things to survive, specifically in the poorer urban areas of america, selling drugs or doing other illegal activity. The worst thing about the system is that it crushes the desire of some people to follow their true dreams. Unless your true dream is to become a star quarterback for the PATRIOTS.
You create a depressing environment where learning things isn't cool, because fuck this I'm not good at this. So someone who is good can kiss my ass. That is the attitude it breeds when you don't allow people to pursue what they are naturally passionate about.
That is so fucking true.Bad Jim said:
At the same time it needs to be paid for so everyone can have the same opportunities.
I never understood that line of "reasoning" either. Incompetence? They are the most competent at accumulating power and keeping that power, they are doing everything they can to keep that power.spartan231490 said:
When 9/11 happened, you'd be forgiven for asking for what the fuck happened. If you were even a little bit skeptical, you were marginalized immediately. People said "you must be dumb to think that the government is competent enough to orchestrate a *SHOCK* conspiracy" as if the very idea of a conspiracy was such a purely hypothetical fantasy that could never happen.
From wikipedia "The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States was established on November 27, 2002, by President George W. Bush and the United States Congress, with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger initially appointed to head the commission.[2] However, Kissinger resigned only weeks after being appointed, because he would have been obliged to disclose the clients of his private consulting business.[3] Former U.S. Senator George Mitchell was originally appointed as the vice-chairman, but he stepped down on December 10, 2002, not wanting to sever ties to his law firm.[4] On December 15, 2002, Bush appointed former New Jersey governor Tom Kean to head the commission.[5]"
The man gets to appoint everyone. Even the guys who are meant to do the investigation. They're all buddy buddy, you don't fuck with powerful people, you kiss their ass and maybe they'll throw you a bone.
The entire educational system is a war on human independence. If you aren't dependent on them, then they can't truly control you.
Oh, hell no. Compulsory schooling was the one of the best things to happen to modern society. Why? Because if school is voluntary, regardless of how "worthwhile" it is, some kids just won't go. Firstly, look at the history. When compulsory schooling was established, literacy rates shot up (as did the number of people who could do arithmetic, etc.) Without compulsory school you get a population who can't read, can't do even the basic day-to-day math, and can't even find the US on a map, much less understand issues that affect them or the world. In short you get a stupid, easily manipulated populace that can't compete on a global scale. What's more, poor kids are historically most likely to avoid school, and if the poor are uneducated, they have no realistic social mobility.Bad Jim said:
"But," you say, "If school was voluntary, schools would improve so everyone would attend." This is a pipe dream, with two huge problems. First of all, some people still wouldn't go, as I said above. What's more, for this to happen schools would need an incentive to gain attendance-- no institution does anything if it doesn't help sustain itself. The only feasible incentive is competition for money, like colleges, which would not simply create a quality gap between bad, less-funded schools and better ones-- just like colleges and providing no real advantages over today's schools. Does the education system need a lot of improvement? Yes, absolutely. But voluntary school does not and will not work.
This was a great article that I really enjoyed, it rings so true, and is backed up by hard evidence. It also happens to be written flawlessly.Westaway said:
Every problem you just said is here today, and getting worse. Literacy going down? Check. Pockets of deep segregation, check. Easily manipulated populations? DOUBLE CHECK. Can't find the us on the map, cant figure out what 76 + 1682 is, don't know how a bill passes into law, check check check.Platypus540 said:
As the educational system grows, your dependency grows, your alternatives go away. If you were talented at music, why does this person need to master algebra? If you're talented and passionate about math, why do you need to learn how to throw a ball into a hoop?
This reminds me of a great question they asked a bunch of kindergartners and adults:Phrozenflame500 said:
http://www.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bus.jpg
Which way is this bus going?
Apparently, 90%+ of the kindergartners got it right, while only 60% of the adults did. Abstract thinking is either something kids do well, or something we beat out of people.