Teaching Kids to be Dumb Adults

[Aesir23]

I agree, there have been many times in later school years where I've done something the way I've done it for years which is what I had learned in grade school. only to be told that what I was taught was completely wrong, it's confusing to say the least.

Beyond that, while school does teach useful information in terms of sheer trivia, there were few classes that helped to teach practical skills for life post-high school graduation.

 

[Ironshroom]

Honestly, its all due to society relying on us being conformative. It's unfortunate, but thats the truth.

 

[VanQ]

Ok then, a long cable is currently falling, its bottom end is currently 2 meters above the ground, the cable is not attached to anything else, nor are its movements being impeded by other objects. In which direction is the cable moving?

It is moving down.

That's my answer. Let me see how you misconstrue your own question. Go ahead, I dare you to tell me it's falling up, because you can't assume that everything falls down, even though that's generally what the word fall means in this context. Or that you never specified there was ground, or even a mass large enough to apply gravitational force anywhere nearby. Please, tell me how I answered your question incorrectly. Also, please explain to me how this is relevant to abstract or critical thinking.

Your answer is incorrect based on the information I did not give.

The assumptions you made concerning the contextual definition of the term fall, and that the ground I mentioned represents the only significant gravitational force acting on the cable are both correct. All laws of physics are working as normal, and I am not using any wierd definitions or frames of reference. If you were to pick up a ball and release it next to the cable the ball would move down. Nevertheless, the cable is not moving down. Try again

Except for the level of knowledge required, and the fact that I did not give you a misleading graphic, this is set up exactly like the problem with the bus. Answering it requires making assumptions about information that you are not given. An answer that is wrong according to the person asking the question can easily be completely correct based on the information given. This is not by your own definition a trick question, nor is it one that cannot be answered without more than a bare bones knowledge of the principles involved, all of which should be known to anyone who got past middle school. It is simply a problem with undefined details that requires unusual thinking to solve.

Give me one more decent guess and I swear I will tell you the answer and explain the point of this.

If you tell me the answer is it is moving towards the closest mass large enough to exert gravitational force I'm going to disregard everything you say on the matter. Because then it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand because there aren't many young children that could give that answer, as I was attempting to answer from a mindset that a child could also answer.

If you tell me it's not moving at all because there was never any specified force such as gravity, I will also disregard this entirely. Because then I would say the world "fall" is misleading the question.

Is this a question you made up? With an answer you just made up to prove me wrong?

 

[Heronblade]

snip

My answer and explanation has already been posted. Check the posts immediately following the one you quoted. In particular my exchange with Owyn_Merrilin

As it happens, whether or not a young child would understand is irrelevant. A slightly older child would have been exposed to the concepts involved but few would ever put the concepts together on their own. For that matter, I would have been shocked if anyone on this board had answered "correctly" (no offense). It isn't as if anyone has ever seen a real life example of this occurring, even if, as mentioned, a basic understanding of physics tells us it is possible. Regardless, the point of this discussion concerned the validity of the previous bus problem in terms of testing abstract thought, I'm not suggesting an alternative test here.

As to your final question, yes and no. I have dealt with physics problems involving the situation described there, and if I get the chance I intend to do everything in my power to make something similar a reality, but I have yet to hear anyone ask anything about it that is quite that vague.

Of course, the lack of usable information was kind of the point.

 

[Mersadeon]

I noticed a lot of this thread is VERY US-centric, so let me chime in with a few words from Germany - I give private lessons to almost all ages in most subjects (the only exceptions are those I was horrible at or never had enough of), and I aspire to be a teacher. A lot of my students are from the same school I was in, so I kind of get to see the teaching techniques employed there over the years. And yes, I understand teaching isn't easy - but some new methods just seemingly never arrived in the schools. The older teachers are simply horrible at teaching big amounts of content, especially in history. I feel that a subject that has SO much content to get through just has to be handled differently. Right now, they spend so much time analysing very small situations that they barely even get through the most important parts of history. And don't even get me started on some of the topics! Really, did we need 2 months about California, when you could have had 2 more months to cover, I don't know, more WWII, or for a change something that isn't western civilisation? That focus on Germany and America is becoming quite unhealthy. I mean, I understand that german history in Germany is obviously required, especially considering the... extreme nature of our modern history, but something is wrong when my student comes to me and cannot fathom the idea of anything important happening outside of Europe and North America.


Now, I understand that my complaints are probably tiny compared to the ones I would have in the american educational system - from what I've read and heard from friends on student exchange, it is absolutely broken beyond repair. Especially the multiple choice tests.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The earlier question with Joe and Toms age is much better example of critical reasoning, as it has one easy obvious answer

Unfortunately it is not. It is a straight algebra question.

Heh, I was also wondering if I was the only one to do it this way. Isn't any other way just systematic guessing for a number that fits, and not really critical thinking?

Hmmm...does it count that you know they are only going to use whole numbers?

For the algebra to work, this isn't required. However, you know this is going to be the case. So, this year, Joe's age is an even number, and it's one more than a number divisible by three.

 

[MCerberus]

I'd like to point out that a diamond geometrically refers to a rhombus with either a 45 or 60 degree angle depending on the proper name for the shape your wanting. Either way, rhombus with a right angle = square. all the time. forever. I lay claim to be the first of the geometry nazis!

OT - this is a side-effect of the prison system of education. They treat kids as prisoners to make everything just sort of orderly because it seems right. It's not conductive to learning at all, especially since you need to question and teach to effectively learn. There's a list of a billion things schools are doing wrong.

Like how if kids are staring out the window you close the blinds to stop them from daydreaming. Turns out you make it worse. Kids doodling and not paying attention? Doodling engages a part of the brain that's idle and facilitates taking in the lecture. Don't even get me started about zero-tolerance.

 

[JarinArenos]

It doesn't stop with children. This basically defines technical certifications. CompTIA will force you to refer to a computer's desktop as a "workspace" and deduct points for calling it a desktop. THAT is how pedantic it gets. To say nothing of the blatantly outdated or just plain wrong data they teach. I was told flat out that actively working in networking was the biggest hindrance to getting CompTIA network certification.

 

[TWRule]

Ties into the "you shouldn't focus on the implication" part of the study. Kids tend to answer these questions better since they don't have preconceived societal notions that the question is misleading you to follow.

This reminds me of a great question they asked a bunch of kindergartners and adults:

http://www.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bus.jpg
Which way is this bus going?

Apparently, 90%+ of the kindergartners got it right, while only 60% of the adults did. Abstract thinking is either something kids do well, or something we beat out of people.

I thought it was a trick question and that the bus was coming towards me.

Like the shapes were the lights or something

Now that you mention it, I can see it that way too - nice catch. Either the original question was far more specific that it is being repeated here, or there is no "right" answer, just different perspectives.

The fact that anyone is passing a question like this off as having a "right" answer pretty much sums up what's wrong with education.

I probably would have answered "What bus? That is a collection of shapes?" Or even if we made a LOT of assumptions about what it is supposed to represent, including the stipulation that it is actually a moving bus, if there is no specification that is is an American bus, you can't claim there is a right answer. Are we expecting to culturally indoctrinate children too? "No children, the American bus is the paradigm for all buses - what you see around you is the only way things ever are."

 

[FoolKiller]

Welcome to the new way of government. Ignorant, dogmatic subjects are easier to control than thinking citizens, and control is the means to profit.

I wouldn't necessarily be that cynical, although it depends on where you live. I am convinced that the world is run by the incompetent more than the malicious - although there is definitely both there. It's more stupidity in leaders, and not authoritarianism, that leads to these things.

Actually its because change is hard. School systems came about during the industrial revolution. So schools also ended up working like factories because that is where the students would end up. There hasn't been any real change since.

Here's the question to ask. Why is it that students are grouped based on age?

 

[Heronblade]

Here's the question to ask. Why is it that students are grouped based on age?

Its easier to have a progressive curriculum schedule that way. Grouping them by ability/work ethic would be much more appropriate, but would actually require some flexibility and thought from the schools admin.

 

[Someone Depressing]

The point of the education system isn't to educate, not right now.

It's to keep kids away from the jobs. There just aren't enough for everybody.

 

[HannesPascal]

Has anyone else heard about "lies to children". It's basically teaching the children something that is wrong but they have to understand it before they can understand how it actually is. Kind of like gravity, I bet a ton of you still think gravity is a force because you're dumb idiots because that explanation is way easier to understand (granted "bending the space-time continuum" isn't right per se).

Also the point of basic education is to not make education a question of class like the good old days when the upper class got educated while the filthy lower class children got thrown straight into factory work/agriculture (depending on how long ago) and actually giving people a chance to get some decent education regardless of their class. The reason eduction nowadays contains so much bureaucracy is that it has to be fair and not A) teachers dictating whether or not a student is good enough to be taught and B) students getting different results for the same kind of performance.

Just out of curiosity how many of you that bash the principle of education, calling it brainwashing and such, were what some people would call "good" students and got a lot of A:s (or whatever grade system you use).

 

[Olas]

The point of school isn't to teach, it's to sort out the children by intelligence and work ethic so that we know which ones to give scholarships and recommendation letters to, and which ones to ignore and toss out when they're done.

Part of the problem is the educators.

My brother came to me, stating that most of his colleagues couldn't answer this question.

Last year, Joe was three times the age of his little brother Tom. This year, he is only twice as old as Tom. How old is Tom?

My brother is a substitute teacher. Has colleagues are actual teachers who couldn't figure this shit out. No fucking idea at all. Meanwhile, (God I hope) you can pick that answer out in seconds.

I would guess most people who get the answer "in seconds" did so by mental trial and error with different small numbers, which is hardly a good indicator of mathematical logic, or very useful in situations where the numbers are larger. Actually trying to derive the answer is more complicated than it might seem.

Here's how I'd solve it.

Spoiler

y-1=3(x-1)

y=2x

find x
______________

y-1=3(x-1)


add 1

y=3(x-1)+1

simplify

y=3x-3+1

y=3x-2

plug y value into second equation

3x-2=2x

divide by x

(3x-2)/x=2

simplify

3-2/x=2

subtract 3

-2/x=2-3

simplify

-2/x=-1

multiply by negative 1

2/x=1

multiply by x

2=x

Ya, it's just algebra, but if you're field of study is something unrelated to math and you haven't taken a course in years I could see how you might struggle with it.

http://www.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bus.jpg
Which way is this bus going?

Apparently, 90%+ of the kindergartners got it right, while only 60% of the adults did. Abstract thinking is either something kids do well, or something we beat out of people.

Looks be be at a rest to me, since it doesn't appear to be moving.

What's the correct answer, anyway?

Left. There's no door visible.

Is that a joke? How could you reasonably expect anyone to guess the answer based on that? The bus is drawn so minimalistic that the lack of a door could easily just be seen as an artistic license. If we're going to interpret this puzzle based on things left out of it the correct answer should be "down" because there's no ground below the bus, indicating that it must be floating up in the air somewhere.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Ok then, a long cable is currently falling, its bottom end is currently 2 meters above the ground, the cable is not attached to anything else, nor are its movements being impeded by other objects. In which direction is the cable moving?

It is moving down.

That's my answer. Let me see how you misconstrue your own question. Go ahead, I dare you to tell me it's falling up, because you can't assume that everything falls down, even though that's generally what the word fall means in this context. Or that you never specified there was ground, or even a mass large enough to apply gravitational force anywhere nearby. Please, tell me how I answered your question incorrectly. Also, please explain to me how this is relevant to abstract or critical thinking.

Your answer is incorrect based on the information I did not give.

The assumptions you made concerning the contextual definition of the term fall, and that the ground I mentioned represents the only significant gravitational force acting on the cable are both correct. All laws of physics are working as normal, and I am not using any wierd definitions or frames of reference. If you were to pick up a ball and release it next to the cable the ball would move down. Nevertheless, the cable is not moving down. Try again

Except for the level of knowledge required, and the fact that I did not give you a misleading graphic, this is set up exactly like the problem with the bus. Answering it requires making assumptions about information that you are not given. An answer that is wrong according to the person asking the question can easily be completely correct based on the information given. This is not by your own definition a trick question, nor is it one that cannot be answered without more than a bare bones knowledge of the principles involved, all of which should be known to anyone who got past middle school. It is simply a problem with undefined details that requires unusual thinking to solve.

Give me one more decent guess and I swear I will tell you the answer and explain the point of this.

If you tell me the answer is it is moving towards the closest mass large enough to exert gravitational force I'm going to disregard everything you say on the matter. Because then it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand because there aren't many young children that could give that answer, as I was attempting to answer from a mindset that a child could also answer.

If you tell me it's not moving at all because there was never any specified force such as gravity, I will also disregard this entirely. Because then I would say the world "fall" is misleading the question.

Is this a question you made up? With an answer you just made up to prove me wrong?

He already gave the answer, which was that it was so long that part of it was in the atmosphere, but most of it was orbiting the earth, like a space elevator without the platform at the top. Which is a really far fetched answer, but it's what he decided it should be. Down would probably be correct anyway, it's just falling down in a way that keeps it perpetually falling thanks to its length and its height above the planet.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

In which case almost any answer would be valid. Frankly, I'd be disappointed in my kid if he or she based their answer on the absence of a door in that particular image. There are too many things wrong with it to expect any kind of real world consistency. Even if it was true that all school buses have their doors on the right hand side.

Even if all such assumptions could be made, how do you know the bus is not moving backwards based on the information given? Hell, the ground isn't depicted either, not to mention the shock system and axles connecting the wheels to the vehicle, so why not "its falling down"?

This is why the children end up giving the most logical, reasonable answer possible though. They see a group of shapes that vaguely represent a bus and are told it's a bus and are told that it's moving, then are asked which direction they think it's moving. Off that small amount of information they are able to envision a bus, notice the distinct lack of the door on this side and make an assumption that it's moving forwards since they have very likely never seen a bus in reverse. I don't think I've ever seen a bus reverse, for that matter.

The children process the information they're given, no matter how abstract and come to a logical conclusion. You however, did not come to the same conclusion that you were told was the correct one and try to think of ways to undermine the validity because the image didn't give YOU enough detail to come to the same conclusion that 90% of the children could. There would be no point if they gave you a HD photograph of a bus, on the road, clearly moving forward and asked you the same question.

The children are thinking in a way that allowed them to take an abstract question and come to a logical conclusion. You're thinking in an abstract manner and coming to an abstract conclusion.

Whether or not the children or you are wrong might as well be irrelevant. It's quite clear that you have difficulty thinking critically when presented with an abstract situation. I think the picture of the bus has served its purpose.

On a more personal note... I seriously can't believe you're worried about the illustration being not a 100% accurate depiction of the real thing. Lack of shock absorbers and axles... for the love of... way to miss the point entirely.

Maybe the adults give a different answer compared to the children because the adults have more real world experience.

Both groups are working off the same limited amount of information, but the adult group has more experience to which they can compare the drawing to, therefore the adults get more answers than the children, and they find all those answers reasonable. Therefore, since they have found multiple reasonable answers to the problem, but are told only one correct answer exists they answer "I don't know" because they cannot find an answer that is more correct than the others. On the other hand, because the children have much less life experience with buses, they can only come up with a single answer to the question, and therefore answer the question correctly.

So realistically speaking, the adults are actually better at abstract thinking than the children, because their abstract thinking can lead to multiple solutions to a single problem, whereas the children have a one track mind that railroads them into a single solution.

 

[Eddie the head]

But that's the thing.

The exact question was "this bus is moving, which direction is it going?" and it was an American test.

So "It's going left" is the only reasonable answer. And most adults just said "I dunno. Uh, left/right?"

What if it was backing up? Wouldn't it be going right? It just said it was moving, not moving foreword. The only answer you can say definitely is "towards it's destination."

Maybe I should say short term destination.