Team Fortress 2 and snipers

[BonsaiK]

They have this concept in golf. It's called a "handicap".

When I start playing a game, I strangely don't enjoy being pounded into a pulp by people who have already been playing it for years. I also am a busy person and don't necessarily have the time available to sit there and learn how to be as awesome at a game as an unemployed 18 year old who gets to play for 14 hours a day. If I spend money on a game, I actually want to enjoy myself when playing with others, and getting repeatedly headshotted by someone way better than me with skills I can never hope to match is something that eventually gets old and will inevitably force me to put down the game and play something a bit more noob-friendly.

It's relatively simple to implement such a concept in golf, though, because everyone's playing (effectively) independently towards the same objective, with a clear and universal metric of how close they are to reaching that objective - you can even the playing field in such instances simply by setting the "win" criteria on that measure at different levels for different people. This is not viable in a game where such progress is based on the interactions between all of the players - particularly when the number and skill distribution of those players varies wildly with time.

For practical terms in TF2, the quickest of the practical solutions is to simply leave the server and find one in which you are not so outmatched.

I won't comment on the "I'm a busy person and don't have time to get as good as a not-busy person with an extensive play background" argument here beyond noting that as a competitive athlete and an engineering student at a university known for its academic rigor (working a part-time job on the side), I'm a busy person too.

I would also like to point out that your emphasis on making everything fair for everyone makes any investment in the game utterly meaningless. Many players, myself included, found that they were being outmatched and decided to take advantage of the resources at their disposal to learn how to change the situation in the context of the game, practiced for a given period to internalize what they'd read, and then returned to standard play able to perform more effectively. Punishing players for their decision to improve themselves rather than forcibly deprive others of their advantages seems extraordinarily selfish. If those other players voluntarily accept handicaps, that's their decision, but such a scenario should not be the default.

Read the post above yours about CounterStrike's "reverse gungame". This allows noobs a fair chance but it also allows pro players to flex their skills by forcing them to get tricky kills in order to succeed, thus rewarding them for their "skill investment".

A game shouldn't be an "investment" anyway. I already "invested" in the fucking thing when I paid for it at the store (or on Steam, which is where I tend to buy them now). Now that I've got the fucking game, I want to have some fun now, I don't want to have to struggle for months with a massive difficulty curve as I gradually work out how to beat experts. I want the option of either playing with players at my own level, or having those experts handicapped in some way so I have a hope in hell. That's why they have "divisions" in sport, and it's why your local soccer team doesn't bother to go up against the Brazilian national team - it'd be a slaughter and fun for nobody. Someone excels in your team of noobs? Fine, they get moved up a division, you don't play with them anymore.

 

[blankedboy]

What pisses me off most is that the Sydney Sleeper doesn't apply Jarate with noscopes.
AND I GOT ONE BECAUSE NOSCOPE WOULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING!

 

[arsenicCatnip]

The new gear does what any gear does: open up a class to a different style of playing. I've actually noticed me being killed less by snipers since the update, since headshots aren't instakill.

The thing we should all be complaining about: What trading has done to the chat window and voice chat. Seriously, it's so damn annoying seeing/listening to people spamming messages about "I have Item A and want Item B" or "Anyone have a spare key?"
Kill trading immediately.

Agreed. Jesus. I'm already sick of it, and I haven't been playing for more than about 2 weeks.

When I start playing a game, I strangely don't enjoy being pounded into a pulp by people who have already been playing it for years. I also am a busy person and don't necessarily have the time available to sit there and learn how to be as awesome at a game as an unemployed 18 year old who gets to play for 14 hours a day. If I spend money on a game, I actually want to enjoy myself when playing with others, and getting repeatedly headshotted by someone way better than me with skills I can never hope to match is something that eventually gets old and will inevitably force me to put down the game and play something a bit more noob-friendly.

This is kind of how I feel right now. I'm learning to play TF2, and consider myself semi-decent with a couple of classes. But whenever I try to pick up a new class, I end up getting my tail handed to me no matter where I go because the 'hardcore' players beat the crap out of me. I actually had someone ask me "arsenicCatnip, could you GET any worse?" while I was playing with a group of experienced guys. I'm sorry for being new, but I'm the one who saved your sorry ass when that Heavy was coming after you.

Ugh, sorry for the rant, but it's frustrating, and I think the new rifle might encourage me to play Sniper a bit more than I have been (I'm not very good with Sniper, but I still love him).

 

[jonnosferatu]

Read the post above yours about CounterStrike's "reverse gungame". This allows noobs a fair chance but it also allows pro players to flex their skills by forcing them to get tricky kills in order to succeed, thus rewarding them for their "skill investment".

I did; that's what my final paragraph was in response to.

A game shouldn't be an "investment" anyway. I already "invested" in the fucking thing when I paid for it at the store (or on Steam, which is where I tend to buy them now). Now that I've got the fucking game, I want to have some fun now, I don't want to have to struggle for months with a massive difficulty curve as I gradually work out how to beat experts.

Then take the time to find places where you are not ultimately alone in this mindset. The game's obligation ends at providing the vehicle for your amusement. If you do not find it amusing, you can either:
A) Stop playing
or
B) Find a means of making it amusing

There are usually a wide variety of these means, and you've already demonstrated that there are servers for other, similar games that employ them. That does not mean that the default option for the entire game should be to cater to those whose choice of means was something other than "Get better."

I want the option of either playing with players at my own level, or having those experts handicapped in some way so I have a hope in hell.

You have this option - as I stated above, you can simply leave the server you're playing on and join another, or even just wait for an opening and switch teams. When the server I play on is populated primarily by the ~1% of that server's other players who are definitively and overwhelmingly better than me, I play until I decide I've had enough and go do something else - and I play a class that can reasonably have this issue against anyone who can play their class effectively. It was quite rare for the situation to come up when I played Sniper, even before I reached a reasonable level of skill.

That's why they have "divisions" in sport, and it's why your local soccer team doesn't bother to go up against the Brazilian national team - it'd be a slaughter and fun for nobody. Someone excels in your team of noobs? Fine, they get moved up a division, you don't play with them anymore.

Unfortunately, this is not a viable approach when the means of hosting the game is through independent servers rather than a central hub, and the game itself is played between large teams. I actually do agree quite strongly with having this method as an option (albeit not a mandatory one) if one can work out the issues with it, but in its absence did the next best thing and just found a server I considered balanced and stopped playing on any others, but it's very possible that there are other TF2 groups running multiple servers reserved for players with specific play histories.

However, notice that this approach does not rely on handicapping your opponents. I have no objection to your desire for newbies to enjoy a game - I do, however, object to the idea that one should be handicapped by default as "punishment" for being good.

 

[jonnosferatu]

What pisses me off most is that the Sydney Sleeper doesn't apply Jarate with noscopes.
AND I GOT ONE BECAUSE NOSCOPE WOULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING!

Now imagine how you'd feel if you were one of the people who dropped $17.50 on the Sniper's Set Hat because it advertised "Headshot Immunity," only to discover that all that means is that you can't die from a headshot unless you're already at 1HP.

I can't say I'm impressed with Valve's handling of the information surrounding this update - I (as a Soldier) was mildly annoyed when I read the description for the Sleeper because I felt that it would cause a significant imbalance, but now I'm mildly annoyed because Valve didn't bother to tell anyone what the conditions were for the description to actually be true.

The thought occurs that perhaps they should give it Jarate on a quickscope headshot, actually. That I can see being a concrete positive to the community.

Agreed. Jesus. I'm already sick of it, and I haven't been playing for more than about 2 weeks.

I've never really seen a whole lot of trade chatter during rounds, but it does get extremely annoying during setup. It'd probably have worked better if Valve had set the trading server up as entirely separate from the game environment, though, or made some kind of want-ad system so you could advertise what you had for sale and just have people PM you.

This is kind of how I feel right now. I'm learning to play TF2, and consider myself semi-decent with a couple of classes. But whenever I try to pick up a new class, I end up getting my tail handed to me no matter where I go because the 'hardcore' players beat the crap out of me. I actually had someone ask me "arsenicCatnip, could you GET any worse?" while I was playing with a group of experienced guys. I'm sorry for being new, but I'm the one who saved your sorry ass when that Heavy was coming after you.

I had a lot of similar experiences when I was starting with Soldier, and found that people tended to be very helpful if I responded with something to the effect of "Sorry, I'm still learning [class]. Got any advice?"

However, again, my method of getting past issues with unpleasant peers was to simply find a server with a good community and never play anywhere else.

 

[BonsaiK]

What pisses me off most is that the Sydney Sleeper doesn't apply Jarate with noscopes.
AND I GOT ONE BECAUSE NOSCOPE WOULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING!

Now imagine how you'd feel if you were one of the people who dropped $17.50 on the Sniper's Set Hat because it advertised "Headshot Immunity," only to discover that all that means is that you can't die from a headshot unless you're already at 1HP.

I can't say I'm impressed with Valve's handling of the information surrounding this update - I (as a Soldier) was mildly annoyed when I read the description for the Sleeper because I felt that it would cause a significant imbalance, but now I'm mildly annoyed because Valve didn't bother to tell anyone what the conditions were for the description to actually be true.

The thought occurs that perhaps they should give it Jarate on a quickscope headshot, actually. That I can see being a concrete positive to the community.

Agreed. Jesus. I'm already sick of it, and I haven't been playing for more than about 2 weeks.

I've never really seen a whole lot of trade chatter during rounds, but it does get extremely annoying during setup. It'd probably have worked better if Valve had set the trading server up as entirely separate from the game environment, though, or made some kind of want-ad system so you could advertise what you had for sale and just have people PM you.

This is kind of how I feel right now. I'm learning to play TF2, and consider myself semi-decent with a couple of classes. But whenever I try to pick up a new class, I end up getting my tail handed to me no matter where I go because the 'hardcore' players beat the crap out of me. I actually had someone ask me "arsenicCatnip, could you GET any worse?" while I was playing with a group of experienced guys. I'm sorry for being new, but I'm the one who saved your sorry ass when that Heavy was coming after you.

I had a lot of similar experiences when I was starting with Soldier, and found that people tended to be very helpful if I responded with something to the effect of "Sorry, I'm still learning [class]. Got any advice?"

However, again, my method of getting past issues with unpleasant peers was to simply find a server with a good community and never play anywhere else.

I didn't actually say that bit that's quoted to me.

 

[arsenicCatnip]

Agreed. Jesus. I'm already sick of it, and I haven't been playing for more than about 2 weeks.

I've never really seen a whole lot of trade chatter during rounds, but it does get extremely annoying during setup. It'd probably have worked better if Valve had set the trading server up as entirely separate from the game environment, though, or made some kind of want-ad system so you could advertise what you had for sale and just have people PM you.

The want-ad system would be difficult to set up, but it would be MUCH nicer than the "ne1 got hatz 2 trade? lololol" that I found on a couple servers I was wandering through.

[post="18.240325.8670219"]This is kind of how I feel right now. I'm learning to play TF2, and consider myself semi-decent with a couple of classes. But whenever I try to pick up a new class, I end up getting my tail handed to me no matter where I go because the 'hardcore' players beat the crap out of me. I actually had someone ask me "arsenicCatnip, could you GET any worse?" while I was playing with a group of experienced guys. I'm sorry for being new, but I'm the one who saved your sorry ass when that Heavy was coming after you.

I had a lot of similar experiences when I was starting with Soldier, and found that people tended to be very helpful if I responded with something to the effect of "Sorry, I'm still learning [class]. Got any advice?"

However, again, my method of getting past issues with unpleasant peers was to simply find a server with a good community and never play anywhere else.

The servers I've been playing on are said to be 'good communities', and are still filled with people who are better and punish new players for being new. Even saying "I'm learning this class, can you give me any advice?" ended with me being laughed at.

If you have a server you recommend, I'd love to hear it. I'm really sick of the ones I've been playing on.

 

[Ashcrexl]

i've always hated snipers. but now i can be covered in PEEEEEE while hating snipers. that's pretty cool.

but seriously, i love the sydney sleeper. the thing i hated most about snipers was how they could insta-kill you BUT NOW THEY CANT!

 

[jonnosferatu]

I didn't actually say that bit that's quoted to me.

Sorry; I clipped things incorrectly when I was snipping the quote. It's intended for the other guy...sec.

If you have a server you recommend, I'd love to hear it. I'm really sick of the ones I've been playing on.

http://www.theville.org/forums/portal.php

There'll usually be spaces on 24/7 Dustbowl, 24/7 Warpath, or one of the Full Rotations. The 32-player Full Rotation has been completely empty recently, though (might work somewhat better if it were 24-person - 16 per team tends to immensely crowded on conventional maps).

 

[smithy_2045]

Read the post above yours about CounterStrike's "reverse gungame". This allows noobs a fair chance but it also allows pro players to flex their skills by forcing them to get tricky kills in order to succeed, thus rewarding them for their "skill investment".

I played quite a bit of gungame and I can guarantee you that the noobs have no chance against the skilled players no matter what gun they're forced to use. Grenades are the sole exception to this rule, since they can't kill in a single hit even with a perfect throw. It's impossible to win a map of gungame without being skilled.

 

[LightningBanks]

2. Levelling the playing field between skilled players and noob players is something that I wholeheartedly support, in all games.

So you're saying that being better at something should not make you better at it?

Even ignoring the impossibility of ever actually implementing this, I find this mindset somewhat hard to take seriously.

They have this concept in golf. It's called a "handicap".

When I start playing a game, I strangely don't enjoy being pounded into a pulp by people who have already been playing it for years. I also am a busy person and don't necessarily have the time available to sit there and learn how to be as awesome at a game as an unemployed 18 year old who gets to play for 14 hours a day. If I spend money on a game, I actually want to enjoy myself when playing with others, and getting repeatedly headshotted by someone way better than me with skills I can never hope to match is something that eventually gets old and will inevitably force me to put down the game and play something a bit more noob-friendly.

The problem still stands that the weapons that help are generally NOT avalible to new players, unless they purchase or get really lucky ( I didnt get my first item till about 10 hours of play)

 

[arsenicCatnip]

I didn't actually say that bit that's quoted to me.

Sorry; I clipped things incorrectly when I was snipping the quote. It's intended for the other guy...sec.

If you have a server you recommend, I'd love to hear it. I'm really sick of the ones I've been playing on.

http://www.theville.org/forums/portal.php

There'll usually be spaces on 24/7 Dustbowl, 24/7 Warpath, or one of the Full Rotations. The 32-player Full Rotation has been completely empty recently, though (might work somewhat better if it were 24-person - 16 per team tends to immensely crowded on conventional maps).

Thank you I really appreciate it.

 

[jonnosferatu]

The problem still stands that the weapons that help are generally NOT avalible to new players, unless they purchase or get really lucky ( I didnt get my first item till about 10 hours of play)

The drop rates were increased with this update, though it's still kinda schizophrenic. I personally think that the entire loadout should be made universally available (excluding the non-set Hats), but now that the microtransactions have been put in it'd be a huge dick move for Valve to do that. Having the microtransactions in also makes it possible for them to maintain the TF2 team now that sales have dropped off, so it's probably the lesser of two evils.

That said, only the Pyro has update weapons that are required to play the class well - everyone else is fairly viable with the default loadout, though different selections will obviously complement different playstyles. The Shovel (Soldier) and Bonesaw (Medic) are the only two items (besides Pyro loadout) that are so weak relative to their upgrades that you'd be stupid to use them after getting the alternatives.

 

[Cazza]

First thing I though when I saw it

"Valve are retards! Who in their right mind wants to promote bad sniping?"

That gear + medic = immpossible to kill sniper.


also it's been out for awhile now.

 

[CruentusMist]

The SS is definatly a tool with limited functionality compared to the regular sniper rifle.

However, (on 2 fort anyway...) with the rest of the set, it does have one good use as far as I can tell, and that is allowing new players to avoid getting instant killed by verteran snipers.

I dont see that as a bad thing.

As long as there are good snipers, new snipers will want to get better. The Sydney sleeper isnt going to hold anyone back. Those looking to get really serious will get there anyway.

 

[IRaithI]

"Wah, bodyshots are for noobs! Snipers should only headshot!"

A kill is a kill. Find ways to avoid them, adapt and fight back, or stop playin'.

Your opinion my good man. Valve are just impowering the weak imo.

No they're empowering the skilled. You have to play alot to unlock that new gear remember, or at least pay about $30 for it.

What!? Dude I crafted the new sniper rifle the moment it came out...

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well I haven't played in a really long time so I wouldn't know anything about this exact update.

But personally I dislike the gap bridge tactics companies put in place to reward incompetence.
I think if you suck at a game you need to get better, and not rely on training wheels to get you along.

 

[IRaithI]

So Valve made a dick move here with the new gear. A full kit that prevents you being killed by a headshot and a sniper that kills with just one body shot (but you cant get a headshot with it) and it takes less time for it to charge up a shot. So basicaly you can kill a heavy with just one charged body shot.

Whoever thought all of this would be a good idea should be burned alive because now scrub snipers are made into descent ones because they dont have to aim for the head to get a kill nore do they have to worry about getting killed by a headshot. Great...

So what do you guys think?

1. You're wrong, that's not how it works at all.

2. Levelling the playing field between skilled players and noob players is something that I wholeheartedly support, in all games.

1.Yes I'm probably wrong but...

2.If you're making noob players better with the weapon arent you giving an even more powerful tool to the better ones aswell?

Dont know really. Balance is something hard to achieve. All it boils down to is who can get the new fancy toy firs.

 

[BonsaiK]

2.If you're making noob players better with the weapon arent you giving an even more powerful tool to the better ones as well?

Potentially yes, but that's only one possible way out of several to level the playing field.

 

[IRaithI]

2.If you're making noob players better with the weapon arent you giving an even more powerful tool to the better ones as well?

Potentially yes, but that's only one possible way out of several to level the playing field.

In my eyes an unfair to both sides way. Why must developers hold the hands of all the crappy players? Either get better or get lost.

I'm probably saying this for the millionth time: I know I'm most definetly wrong but still I stick to what I say.