That moment you get when a video validates your opinion, it feels good. (God of War thread)

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Is this what confirmation bias is? Because I like it.

The subject of my opinion in question concerns the God of War games and the whole thing regarding the newest game that "God of War has grown up, Kratos is now a deep and complex charcater".......even though Kratos was ALWAYS a deep and complex charcater:


And I to have been a bit perplexed by those statements and I fully remember those games because I own them and play them regularly. But the gaming media and reviewers played this game as if they never even touched the older games or have completely forgotten everything that happened in those games.

Only remembering that the games were bloody violent and gratuitously sexual, completely forgetting the deeper moments.

The video makes a statement that they are perhaps the gaming media and reviewers are doing this by destroying the old to make the newer game on a silver pedestal, infact this is the thing I saw happened to the older Resident Evil games when RE 4 came out, once Resident Evil 4 came out people disregarding the older games as trash, or that Silent Hill did it better and what have you.

I just wish there was more videos like this calling out bullshit when I see it.

Sorry if this was a bit pissy and ranty but I just stumbled across this video and it triggered something in me when I watched it.

 

[sXeth]

Ah yes.

The insertion of the companion character into your action-genre games is prettymuch gaming's answers to the historical period piece Oscar-bait trope.

The other go-to example would be Bioshock : Infinite. Putting aside the gameplay, the mere inclusion of Elizabeth seemingly elevates the gibbering mess of nonsense that makes up the story over the well layed out and somewhat clever mystery of the first game.

Last of Us is an interesting comparison to God of War as well. Mystical setting aside, Joel and Kratos are basically similar characters. Joel doesn't get a whole lot of introspection or backstory though, the intro sets up why he's a broken angry man, but then it time skips and he's a vicious mercenary. And he never really gets an arc in the game, what character arc there is goes to Ellie instead. And while its well-acted and all, its a pretty basic story arc that makes up the tutorial of dozens of other games.

There's a bit to be said for consistent presentation too. Bayek of Siwa (AC : Origins) is a fairly deep character too, but you'd be forgiven for zoning that out because there's 10 hours of sidequests (most with A asks B to solve C problem by kiling D structure and no real character to them) in between any actual character moments, and the storyline gets disjointed as hell by the open world setup.

 

[BrawlMan]

Is this what confirmation bias is? Because I like it.

The subject of my opinion in question concerns the God of War games and the whole thing regarding the newest game that "God of War has grown up, Kratos is now a deep and complex charcater".......even though Kratos was ALWAYS a deep and complex charcater:


And I to have been a bit perplexed by those statements and I fully remember those games because I own them and play them regularly. But the gaming media and reviewers played this game as if they never even touched the older games or have completely forgotten everything that happened in those games.

Only remembering that the games were bloody violent and gratuitously sexual, completely forgetting the deeper moments.

The video makes a statement that they are perhaps the gaming media and reviewers are doing this by destroying the old to make the newer game on a silver pedestal, infact this is the thing I saw happened to the older Resident Evil games when RE 4 came out, once Resident Evil 4 came out people disregarding the older games as trash, or that Silent Hill did it better and what have you.

I just wish there was more videos like this calling out bullshit when I see it.

Sorry if this was a bit pissy and ranty but I just stumbled across this video and it triggered something in me when I watched it.

I never listen to most "professional" game critics or "journalists", but I always felt Kratos was a shallow character at least in the sequels (IV being the exception). By that point he was a one note angry dude who always blamed others for his problems and wasn't much better than the gods he fought. He was always a tool and or a fool played by other deities; especially in III. You did not want him to succeed. I didn't. The prequels made a shallow attempt to humanize him, but that wouldn't matter because the player would know what would happen to him by the time God of War II starts. Even after the 4th mainline game, there are still other characters from similar brawler games that have more depth than Kratos: Asura, Dante (original DMC games barring 2), Gene (Godhand), Bayonetta, Travis Touchdown, and even freaking Ryu Hyabusa. Ok, for that last one, you pretty much have to play the DOA games, and Ryu isn't usually the main focus of that series. If those critics bother you that much, don't listen to them and fuck'em.

P.S - All of the mainline RE games are relevant. Though Code Veronica I have a huge dislike for, RE6 can go fuck itself, and RE7 I barely have interest in.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

In the very first PS2 game I'd agree with you. From what I've gathered about the sequels, baring the most recent one, not so much. Everything I hear about God of War 2 & 3 tells me that he was reduced to a shallow characterture of what he was in the first game. And even in the first game what depth he had wasn't all that deep.

 

[bluegate]

And I to have been a bit perplexed by those statements and I fully remember those games because I own them and play them regularly. But the gaming media and reviewers played this game as if they never even touched the older games or have completely forgotten everything that happened in those games.

Think you might be onto something there, also, sometimes people just like to be part of the popular narrative at that moment and parrot other outlets in a bid to get more views and audience acceptance.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Is this what confirmation bias is? Because I like it.

The subject of my opinion in question concerns the God of War games and the whole thing regarding the newest game that "God of War has grown up, Kratos is now a deep and complex charcater".......even though Kratos was ALWAYS a deep and complex charcater:


And I to have been a bit perplexed by those statements and I fully remember those games because I own them and play them regularly. But the gaming media and reviewers played this game as if they never even touched the older games or have completely forgotten everything that happened in those games.

Only remembering that the games were bloody violent and gratuitously sexual, completely forgetting the deeper moments.

The video makes a statement that they are perhaps the gaming media and reviewers are doing this by destroying the old to make the newer game on a silver pedestal, infact this is the thing I saw happened to the older Resident Evil games when RE 4 came out, once Resident Evil 4 came out people disregarding the older games as trash, or that Silent Hill did it better and what have you.

I just wish there was more videos like this calling out bullshit when I see it.

Sorry if this was a bit pissy and ranty but I just stumbled across this video and it triggered something in me when I watched it.

I never listen to most "professional" game critics or "journalists", but I always felt Kratos was a shallow character at least in the sequels (IV being the exception). By that point he was a one note angry dude who always blamed others for his problems and wasn't much better than the gods he fought. He was always a tool and or a fool played by other deities; especially in III. You did not want him to succeed. I didn't. The prequels made a shallow attempt to humanize him, but that wouldn't matter because the player would know what would happen to him by the time God of War II starts. Even after the 4th mainline game, there are still other characters from similar brawler games that have more depth than Kratos: Asura, Dante (original DMC games barring 2), Gene (Godhand), Bayonetta, Travis Touchdown, and even freaking Ryu Hyabusa. Ok, for that last one, you pretty much have to play the DOA games, and Ryu isn't usually the main focus of that series. If those critics bother you that much, don't listen to them and fuck'em.

P.S - All of the mainline RE games are relevant. Though Code Veronica I have a huge dislike for, RE6 can go fuck itself, and RE7 I barely have interest in.

1. But the context here is what they used to humanize Kratos with, and that was is family issues. He deeply laments for killing his family and wants attonement redemption and in the case of God of War Chains of Olympus, he was willing to forget the whole world just to be with his daughter again. The new God of War game, everyone is praising it for Kratos now being a dad, even though he was already a dad and clearly cared for his wife and daughter, I mean the freaking live action trailer for God of War Ascension demonstrates this clearly:


2. As regards to other characters, Only DMC 3 Dante I agree, DMC 1 Dante was a blank slate, and DMC 4 Dante was just a cool guy while all the character depth went to Nero. Never played Godhand or Asura, Bayonetta I know has a daughter which turns out is herself as a child which is.....weird (I have to play that game someday) I just bought the first No More Heroes game.

3. Code Veronica is pretty much the weakest of the Old School Resident Evil games, but Resident Evil 1 ORIGINAL just barely wins for worst old RE game, I recommend Resident Evil 7, it has issues but I like what it was going for. Resident Evil 6 was fun regardless, if only my PS3 version wasn't borked even with Patches

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

In the very first PS2 game I'd agree with you. From what I've gathered about the sequels, baring the most recent one, not so much. Everything I hear about God of War 2 & 3 tells me that he was reduced to a shallow characterture of what he was in the first game. And even in the first game what depth he had wasn't all that deep.

The funny thing about God of War 2's story progression is that that game was lead and directed by Corey Balrog who is the lead director for the newest God of War game and its story and gameplay.

 

[Saelune]

Only way God of War can narratively redeem itself is if Kratos' Son finds out how fucking horrible his dad is and kills him, then I guess he could become the protagonist of later games.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Last of Us is an interesting comparison to God of War as well. Mystical setting aside, Joel and Kratos are basically similar characters. Joel doesn't get a whole lot of introspection or backstory though, the intro sets up why he's a broken angry man, but then it time skips and he's a vicious mercenary. And he never really gets an arc in the game, what character arc there is goes to Ellie instead. And while its well-acted and all, its a pretty basic story arc that makes up the tutorial of dozens of other games.

He does get an arc. One that shows him thrust into a situation he wants no part of, then taking hestitant responsibilty for his charge, learning to respect this person, admitting to himself that he cares and genuinely opens up, only for the ghosts of his past to consume him, his fear driving him to a desperate act, and ultimately giving up on the world to live a lie. Ellie only gets an arc near the very end.


OT: Kratos at best had some dignity in God of War 1, but he certainly didn't have depth or complexity. He was an asshole who wanted to forget he murdered his family. That was about it. And once the sequels roled out this was shortend to him just being an asshole. GoW2 and 3 did nothing but celebrate Kratos being a murderous shitheel, never once pointing a mirror toward him. And the characters that called him out were countered with 'Fuck you, dis is what Kratos do!' and then promptly murdered, which is then supposed to be accompanied by the player cheering as he goes. Even when he drags a poor slave girl around with her tits hanging out, and jams her into a gear to be brutally crushed. "Aw man, did you see what he just did? Awesome!"

The whole design philosophy behind Kratos at Santa Monica for the previous games was that he never looks back, keeps going, never stops, no matter what or who he might encounter. If you like classic Kratos better, fine, but don't try to claim he ever had any semblance of depth before the new game. Ascension tried to dail it back, but by then it was too late, and seeing as it was a prequel it didn't really matter.

And I like the previous games. Or at least GoW1 and 2.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Only way God of War can narratively redeem itself is if Kratos' Son finds out how fucking horrible his dad is and kills him, then I guess he could become the protagonist of later games.

Knowing how AAA writers think, they'll do another game set in Norse mythology, the son will die defeating Odin, and Kratos will go off to ancient Egypt, get married, have a daughter, the wife will die and the daughter will turn out to be...Isis, Goddess of Magic. And Kratos will have to hack and slash and Dad his way through the Egyptian pantheon because of reasons.

 

[BrawlMan]

Last of Us is an interesting comparison to God of War as well. Mystical setting aside, Joel and Kratos are basically similar characters. Joel doesn't get a whole lot of introspection or backstory though, the intro sets up why he's a broken angry man, but then it time skips and he's a vicious mercenary. And he never really gets an arc in the game, what character arc there is goes to Ellie instead. And while its well-acted and all, its a pretty basic story arc that makes up the tutorial of dozens of other games.

He does get an arc. One that shows him thrust into a situation he wants no part of, then taking hestitant responsibilty for his charge, learning to respect this person, admitting to himself that he cares and genuinely opens up, only for the ghosts of his past to consume him, his fear driving him to a desperate act, and ultimately giving up on the world to live a lie. Ellie only gets an arc near the very end.


OT: Kratos at best had some dignity in God of War 1, but he certainly didn't have depth or complexity. He was an asshole who wanted to forget he murdered his family. That was about it. And once the sequels roled out this was shortend to him just being an asshole. GoW2 and 3 did nothing but celebrate Kratos being a murderous shitheel, never once pointing a mirror toward him. And the characters that called him out were countered with 'Fuck you, dis is what Kratos do!' and then promptly murdered, which is then supposed to be accompanied by the player cheering as he goes. Even when he drags a poor slave girl around with her tits hanging out, and jams her into a gear to be brutally crushed. "Aw man, did you see what he just did? Awesome!"

The whole design philosophy behind Kratos at Santa Monica for the previous games was that he never looks back, keeps going, never stops, no matter what or who he might encounter. If you like classic Kratos better, fine, but don't try to claim he ever had any semblance of depth before the new game. Ascension tried to dail it back, but by then it was too late, and seeing as it was a prequel it didn't really matter.

And I like the previous games. Or at least GoW1 and 2.

Thank you, that's what I've been trying to tell him.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I like his tone for the comical effect, but it is more than a bit pretentious nevertheless. I was one who enjoyed the original Greek thread and Kratos as a character; even though they kind of went off the deep end with him, I generally understood it as a Greek tragedy tale, where even though the presentation and characterization might have been somewhat juvenile, the message behind it was solid and was certainly a step or two beyond most action adventure contemporaries. The Unearthing the Legend [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL956EC179981A90E1] series that I believe is still on PSN greatly justifies and elaborates on this. Also worth a watch is the Director's Live [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUg7PUYOgzo] discussion.

Having said that, yes the presentation and tone of the latest game is definitely more mature, in that it feels more grounded and humanly relatable in a way, with far greater character development. It comes across as something even someone who thinks video games are beneath them might consider observing for the story.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Last of Us is an interesting comparison to God of War as well. Mystical setting aside, Joel and Kratos are basically similar characters. Joel doesn't get a whole lot of introspection or backstory though, the intro sets up why he's a broken angry man, but then it time skips and he's a vicious mercenary. And he never really gets an arc in the game, what character arc there is goes to Ellie instead. And while its well-acted and all, its a pretty basic story arc that makes up the tutorial of dozens of other games.

He does get an arc. One that shows him thrust into a situation he wants no part of, then taking hestitant responsibilty for his charge, learning to respect this person, admitting to himself that he cares and genuinely opens up, only for the ghosts of his past to consume him, his fear driving him to a desperate act, and ultimately giving up on the world to live a lie. Ellie only gets an arc near the very end.


OT: Kratos at best had some dignity in God of War 1, but he certainly didn't have depth or complexity. He was an asshole who wanted to forget he murdered his family. That was about it. And once the sequels roled out this was shortend to him just being an asshole. GoW2 and 3 did nothing but celebrate Kratos being a murderous shitheel, never once pointing a mirror toward him. And the characters that called him out were countered with 'Fuck you, dis is what Kratos do!' and then promptly murdered, which is then supposed to be accompanied by the player cheering as he goes. Even when he drags a poor slave girl around with her tits hanging out, and jams her into a gear to be brutally crushed. "Aw man, did you see what he just did? Awesome!"

The whole design philosophy behind Kratos at Santa Monica for the previous games was that he never looks back, keeps going, never stops, no matter what or who he might encounter. If you like classic Kratos better, fine, but don't try to claim he ever had any semblance of depth before the new game. Ascension tried to dail it back, but by then it was too late, and seeing as it was a prequel it didn't really matter.

And I like the previous games. Or at least GoW1 and 2.

Thank you, that's what I've been trying to tell him.

Did you watch the video mind you?

And I guess I was just more upset at these gaming media people disregarding the older games, I mean one of them said they only ever tried the demo of GOW 3. And I feel this same media has very short memories.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Only way God of War can narratively redeem itself is if Kratos' Son finds out how fucking horrible his dad is and kills him, then I guess he could become the protagonist of later games.

If you recall Kratos wanted to kill himself after his initial grave mistake of submitting to Ares, which ultimately cost the lives of his family, but the Gods had other plans for him. If he was forced into being a pawn of of the Gods, even when he wound up one himself. Forced to constantly relive his past horrors in his head, and realizing the Gods were responsible for not allowing his suffering to end, he chose to end them and anyone who got in his way. It's a gamey take on the classic Greek tragedy, but it worked for the most part.

I find the new game far more interesting by taking a seemingly nonredeemable character and actually making people empathize with him than if they just started with a blank slate nobody. There is nothing challenging or interesting about that, unless it was supposed to be something entirely different in the first place.

 

[sXeth]

Last of Us is an interesting comparison to God of War as well. Mystical setting aside, Joel and Kratos are basically similar characters. Joel doesn't get a whole lot of introspection or backstory though, the intro sets up why he's a broken angry man, but then it time skips and he's a vicious mercenary. And he never really gets an arc in the game, what character arc there is goes to Ellie instead. And while its well-acted and all, its a pretty basic story arc that makes up the tutorial of dozens of other games.

He does get an arc. One that shows him thrust into a situation he wants no part of, then taking hestitant responsibilty for his charge, learning to respect this person, admitting to himself that he cares and genuinely opens up, only for the ghosts of his past to consume him, his fear driving him to a desperate act, and ultimately giving up on the world to live a lie. Ellie only gets an arc near the very end.

Joel's had a susccession of friends and partners that he cares and respects that are met in the game. His brother and Tess being the obvious cases. Latching on to people and being the protective savage is his main mode, and he's still in it at the end of the game. Ellie gets a gradual arc of being a sheltered burden to being exposed to the world firsthand and having to prove herself as an ally or even self sufficient in the penultimate chapters.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I find the new game far more interesting by taking a seemingly nonredeemable character and actually making people empathize with him than if they just started with a blank slate nobody. There is nothing challenging or interesting about that, unless it was supposed to be something entirely different in the first place.

Also, the game has numerous points where it brings up something bad that's similar to Kratos' past, and then does a big camera pan to him or where he implicates himself by remaining silent. And ofcourse there's 'that' moment where he admitts to "himself" that he's a disgusting monster and that he'll never be able to shake that. There's times where he might as well be sitting in the corner wearing a big 'DUNCE' cap.

Kratos himself doesn't even seem to be looking for redemption in the new game, just trying to make sure his son doesn't become as vile a piece of shit as he used to be.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Joel's had a susccession of friends and partners that he cares and respects that are met in the game. His brother and Tess being the obvious cases. Latching on to people and being the protective savage is his main mode, and he's still in it at the end of the game. Ellie gets a gradual arc of being a sheltered burden to being exposed to the world firsthand and having to prove herself as an ally or even self sufficient in the penultimate chapters.

Mmmm, no. Joel is pretty much an emotional retard at the start of the game, just surviving for the sake of it. He cares about Tess, but also keeps himself at too much of a distance in order to truly connect with her. He can't deal with emotions. When Tess is about to die and tells him to leave he has no idea how to react or how to say goodbye, he just kinda walks away. The same is seen with Bill in regards to Frank's death. He keeps his genuine reactions locked inside of him, because he's too emotionally stunted.


Tommy is his brother and knew him before he became what he became post-apocalypse. And by that point his time spent with Ellie has thawed him out quite a bit. There's even a scene that directly shows Tommy realizing his brother is no longer the cynical bastard he knew him as after Sarah died, in his interaction with Ellie. Even earlier during the chapter with Henry and Sam, and Joel is forced apart with Sam from Henry and Ellie, you can tell Joel is a lot more considerate with Sam than he was with Ellie when Tess was still around.

This can be seen as well in his reactions to the various notes. Early on he'll plainly comment on how these people died waiting for back-up or trying to get somewhere, but later on you'll hear him talking about how he wonders how long this person held out with a melancholic tone in his voice.


Ellie is emotionally pretty much the same until after Winter. It's only then that we see the weight of the world really start to bear down on her. And ultimately we see her pretty much being like Joel was at the start of the game; Emotionally drained with no hope for the future. While Joel is all optimistic and outgoing, which he most certainly wasn't starting out.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

In the very first PS2 game I'd agree with you. From what I've gathered about the sequels, baring the most recent one, not so much. Everything I hear about God of War 2 & 3 tells me that he was reduced to a shallow characterture of what he was in the first game. And even in the first game what depth he had wasn't all that deep.

The funny thing about God of War 2's story progression is that that game was lead and directed by Corey Balrog who is the lead director for the newest God of War game and its story and gameplay.

I'm guessing either he personally went into the newest one with a different idea for creative direction than he did GoW2 or, much more likely, the new creative direction was mandated from on high.

 

[BrawlMan]

Last of Us is an interesting comparison to God of War as well. Mystical setting aside, Joel and Kratos are basically similar characters. Joel doesn't get a whole lot of introspection or backstory though, the intro sets up why he's a broken angry man, but then it time skips and he's a vicious mercenary. And he never really gets an arc in the game, what character arc there is goes to Ellie instead. And while its well-acted and all, its a pretty basic story arc that makes up the tutorial of dozens of other games.

He does get an arc. One that shows him thrust into a situation he wants no part of, then taking hestitant responsibilty for his charge, learning to respect this person, admitting to himself that he cares and genuinely opens up, only for the ghosts of his past to consume him, his fear driving him to a desperate act, and ultimately giving up on the world to live a lie. Ellie only gets an arc near the very end.


OT: Kratos at best had some dignity in God of War 1, but he certainly didn't have depth or complexity. He was an asshole who wanted to forget he murdered his family. That was about it. And once the sequels roled out this was shortend to him just being an asshole. GoW2 and 3 did nothing but celebrate Kratos being a murderous shitheel, never once pointing a mirror toward him. And the characters that called him out were countered with 'Fuck you, dis is what Kratos do!' and then promptly murdered, which is then supposed to be accompanied by the player cheering as he goes. Even when he drags a poor slave girl around with her tits hanging out, and jams her into a gear to be brutally crushed. "Aw man, did you see what he just did? Awesome!"

The whole design philosophy behind Kratos at Santa Monica for the previous games was that he never looks back, keeps going, never stops, no matter what or who he might encounter. If you like classic Kratos better, fine, but don't try to claim he ever had any semblance of depth before the new game. Ascension tried to dail it back, but by then it was too late, and seeing as it was a prequel it didn't really matter.

And I like the previous games. Or at least GoW1 and 2.

Thank you, that's what I've been trying to tell him.

Did you watch the video mind you?

And I guess I was just more upset at these gaming media people disregarding the older games, I mean one of them said they only ever tried the demo of GOW 3. And I feel this same media has very short memories.

Nothing against you or the guy in the video, but I do not care. Like I said before, those idiot journalist are not worth upsetting over as they rarely have anything relevant to say.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

1) Pretty much Canadamus said. The sequels were shit and the first game was a solid Greek tragedy told and presented well.

In the very first PS2 game I'd agree with you. From what I've gathered about the sequels, baring the most recent one, not so much. Everything I hear about God of War 2 & 3 tells me that he was reduced to a shallow characterture of what he was in the first game. And even in the first game what depth he had wasn't all that deep.

2) Game criticism is so bad you really shouldn't look into much as the majority view of something in the community. Would there be a video like "Fallout 3 is better than you think" on Youtube if the critical view on games was inline with the majority? Fallout New Vegas has a lower score than Fallout 3 yet what I feel it's the better regarded game from forum talk I've read over the years while also getting a higher user score as well.

3) Video games are inherently different from most other art forms because of the time commitment required to play everything. TV is similar in that regard where it's gotta be hard and probably impossible even professional critics to see everything. How many people in the gaming community have played every single God of War game? Does a critic need to have played everything to have an opinion on the series? I've only played the main games in the series and the sequels were so shitty that I lost interested in the series and couldn't care less about the spinoffs. And the main entries in any series in any art form are going to have the bigger impact of how a series is viewed overall. That's probably the main issue with God of War even assuming the spin offs were amazing games (which I wouldn't know).

4) The new game was definitely a change in tone and that tone just comes off as more serious and grounded so it definitely feels more mature regardless if you can legitimately argue the past games were deeper. That would be the same if this was in a different medium like film similarly like how Logan is seen as something like new God of War when compared to the X-Men movies even if those prior entries explored deeper themes.