That moment you get when a video validates your opinion, it feels good. (God of War thread)

[Dirty Hipsters]

Is this what confirmation bias is? Because I like it.

The subject of my opinion in question concerns the God of War games and the whole thing regarding the newest game that "God of War has grown up, Kratos is now a deep and complex charcater".......even though Kratos was ALWAYS a deep and complex charcater:


And I to have been a bit perplexed by those statements and I fully remember those games because I own them and play them regularly. But the gaming media and reviewers played this game as if they never even touched the older games or have completely forgotten everything that happened in those games.

Only remembering that the games were bloody violent and gratuitously sexual, completely forgetting the deeper moments.

The video makes a statement that they are perhaps the gaming media and reviewers are doing this by destroying the old to make the newer game on a silver pedestal, infact this is the thing I saw happened to the older Resident Evil games when RE 4 came out, once Resident Evil 4 came out people disregarding the older games as trash, or that Silent Hill did it better and what have you.

I just wish there was more videos like this calling out bullshit when I see it.

Sorry if this was a bit pissy and ranty but I just stumbled across this video and it triggered something in me when I watched it.

I never listen to most "professional" game critics or "journalists", but I always felt Kratos was a shallow character at least in the sequels (IV being the exception). By that point he was a one note angry dude who always blamed others for his problems and wasn't much better than the gods he fought. He was always a tool and or a fool played by other deities; especially in III. You did not want him to succeed. I didn't. The prequels made a shallow attempt to humanize him, but that wouldn't matter because the player would know what would happen to him by the time God of War II starts. Even after the 4th mainline game, there are still other characters from similar brawler games that have more depth than Kratos: Asura, Dante (original DMC games barring 2), Gene (Godhand), Bayonetta, Travis Touchdown, and even freaking Ryu Hyabusa. Ok, for that last one, you pretty much have to play the DOA games, and Ryu isn't usually the main focus of that series. If those critics bother you that much, don't listen to them and fuck'em.

P.S - All of the mainline RE games are relevant. Though Code Veronica I have a huge dislike for, RE6 can go fuck itself, and RE7 I barely have interest in.

1. But the context here is what they used to humanize Kratos with, and that was is family issues. He deeply laments for killing his family and wants attonement redemption and in the case of God of War Chains of Olympus, he was willing to forget the whole world just to be with his daughter again. The new God of War game, everyone is praising it for Kratos now being a dad, even though he was already a dad and clearly cared for his wife and daughter, I mean the freaking live action trailer for God of War Ascension demonstrates this clearly:


2. As regards to other characters, Only DMC 3 Dante I agree, DMC 1 Dante was a blank slate, and DMC 4 Dante was just a cool guy while all the character depth went to Nero. Never played Godhand or Asura, Bayonetta I know has a daughter which turns out is herself as a child which is.....weird (I have to play that game someday) I just bought the first No More Heroes game.

3. Code Veronica is pretty much the weakest of the Old School Resident Evil games, but Resident Evil 1 ORIGINAL just barely wins for worst old RE game, I recommend Resident Evil 7, it has issues but I like what it was going for. Resident Evil 6 was fun regardless, if only my PS3 version wasn't borked even with Patches

Most people are only taking into account Kratos' character arc (if you can even call it that) from the mainline games, God of War 1, 2 and 3. Anything in the portable games or the prequels barely counts since it was created specifically to fix the problem with the character and justify his shitty actions and personality, but it doesn't make them any less shitty.

Really, everything having to do with the furies is a retcon I choose to ignore.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Is this what confirmation bias is? Because I like it.

The subject of my opinion in question concerns the God of War games and the whole thing regarding the newest game that "God of War has grown up, Kratos is now a deep and complex charcater".......even though Kratos was ALWAYS a deep and complex charcater:


And I to have been a bit perplexed by those statements and I fully remember those games because I own them and play them regularly. But the gaming media and reviewers played this game as if they never even touched the older games or have completely forgotten everything that happened in those games.

Only remembering that the games were bloody violent and gratuitously sexual, completely forgetting the deeper moments.

The video makes a statement that they are perhaps the gaming media and reviewers are doing this by destroying the old to make the newer game on a silver pedestal, infact this is the thing I saw happened to the older Resident Evil games when RE 4 came out, once Resident Evil 4 came out people disregarding the older games as trash, or that Silent Hill did it better and what have you.

I just wish there was more videos like this calling out bullshit when I see it.

Sorry if this was a bit pissy and ranty but I just stumbled across this video and it triggered something in me when I watched it.

I never listen to most "professional" game critics or "journalists", but I always felt Kratos was a shallow character at least in the sequels (IV being the exception). By that point he was a one note angry dude who always blamed others for his problems and wasn't much better than the gods he fought. He was always a tool and or a fool played by other deities; especially in III. You did not want him to succeed. I didn't. The prequels made a shallow attempt to humanize him, but that wouldn't matter because the player would know what would happen to him by the time God of War II starts. Even after the 4th mainline game, there are still other characters from similar brawler games that have more depth than Kratos: Asura, Dante (original DMC games barring 2), Gene (Godhand), Bayonetta, Travis Touchdown, and even freaking Ryu Hyabusa. Ok, for that last one, you pretty much have to play the DOA games, and Ryu isn't usually the main focus of that series. If those critics bother you that much, don't listen to them and fuck'em.

P.S - All of the mainline RE games are relevant. Though Code Veronica I have a huge dislike for, RE6 can go fuck itself, and RE7 I barely have interest in.

1. But the context here is what they used to humanize Kratos with, and that was is family issues. He deeply laments for killing his family and wants attonement redemption and in the case of God of War Chains of Olympus, he was willing to forget the whole world just to be with his daughter again. The new God of War game, everyone is praising it for Kratos now being a dad, even though he was already a dad and clearly cared for his wife and daughter, I mean the freaking live action trailer for God of War Ascension demonstrates this clearly:


2. As regards to other characters, Only DMC 3 Dante I agree, DMC 1 Dante was a blank slate, and DMC 4 Dante was just a cool guy while all the character depth went to Nero. Never played Godhand or Asura, Bayonetta I know has a daughter which turns out is herself as a child which is.....weird (I have to play that game someday) I just bought the first No More Heroes game.

3. Code Veronica is pretty much the weakest of the Old School Resident Evil games, but Resident Evil 1 ORIGINAL just barely wins for worst old RE game, I recommend Resident Evil 7, it has issues but I like what it was going for. Resident Evil 6 was fun regardless, if only my PS3 version wasn't borked even with Patches

Most people are only taking into account Kratos' character arc (if you can even call it that) from the mainline games, God of War 1, 2 and 3. Anything in the portable games or the prequels barely counts since it was created specifically to fix the problem with the character and justify his shitty actions and personality, but it doesn't make them any less shitty.

Really, everything having to do with the furies is a retcon I choose to ignore.

The portable games are canon. Kratos enchained Atlas in Chains of Olympus and Kratos meets Atlas again in God of War 2.

Helios in GOW 3 references Kratos and his prior gratitude to him for saving his life.

Hades mentions Persephone.

 

[CaitSeith]

And I guess I was just more upset at these gaming media people disregarding the older games, I mean one of them said they only ever tried the demo of GOW 3. And I feel this same media has very short memories.

1. Generalizing the media by a few accounts isn't a good base for a honest discusion (or a healty opinion for that matter).

2. There is an ugly side of searching for validation: instead of trying to comprehend the arguments you disagree with, you are first searching for reasons to invalidate them (lots of them arbitrary). That's a very unhealty approach.

3. Why are you surprised about the short memory? After all, a lot of veterans in the media left after 2014 (guess why).

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Last of Us is an interesting comparison to God of War as well. Mystical setting aside, Joel and Kratos are basically similar characters. Joel doesn't get a whole lot of introspection or backstory though, the intro sets up why he's a broken angry man, but then it time skips and he's a vicious mercenary. And he never really gets an arc in the game, what character arc there is goes to Ellie instead. And while its well-acted and all, its a pretty basic story arc that makes up the tutorial of dozens of other games.

He does get an arc. One that shows him thrust into a situation he wants no part of, then taking hestitant responsibilty for his charge, learning to respect this person, admitting to himself that he cares and genuinely opens up, only for the ghosts of his past to consume him, his fear driving him to a desperate act, and ultimately giving up on the world to live a lie. Ellie only gets an arc near the very end.


OT: Kratos at best had some dignity in God of War 1, but he certainly didn't have depth or complexity. He was an asshole who wanted to forget he murdered his family. That was about it. And once the sequels roled out this was shortend to him just being an asshole. GoW2 and 3 did nothing but celebrate Kratos being a murderous shitheel, never once pointing a mirror toward him. And the characters that called him out were countered with 'Fuck you, dis is what Kratos do!' and then promptly murdered, which is then supposed to be accompanied by the player cheering as he goes. Even when he drags a poor slave girl around with her tits hanging out, and jams her into a gear to be brutally crushed. "Aw man, did you see what he just did? Awesome!"

The whole design philosophy behind Kratos at Santa Monica for the previous games was that he never looks back, keeps going, never stops, no matter what or who he might encounter. If you like classic Kratos better, fine, but don't try to claim he ever had any semblance of depth before the new game. Ascension tried to dail it back, but by then it was too late, and seeing as it was a prequel it didn't really matter.

And I like the previous games. Or at least GoW1 and 2.

Not forget he killed his family, as in he seeks redemption and wants to move on.

Every day he still remembers vividly him killing his wife and child.

He wants to be rid of his PTSD.

Also NO ONE thought him killing that slave girl was "AW MAN DID YOU SEE THAT, AWESOME" it wasn't even portrayed as such. It just reinfornced the fact that Kratos just doesn't care any more. So fully consumed by hate and vengence while also a tortured soul that his humanity is long since lost.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I find the new game far more interesting by taking a seemingly nonredeemable character and actually making people empathize with him than if they just started with a blank slate nobody. There is nothing challenging or interesting about that, unless it was supposed to be something entirely different in the first place.

Also, the game has numerous points where it brings up something bad that's similar to Kratos' past, and then does a big camera pan to him or where he implicates himself by remaining silent. And ofcourse there's 'that' moment where he admitts to "himself" that he's a disgusting monster and that he'll never be able to shake that. There's times where he might as well be sitting in the corner wearing a big 'DUNCE' cap.

Kratos himself doesn't even seem to be looking for redemption in the new game, just trying to make sure his son doesn't become as vile a piece of shit as he used to be.

Exactly. He doesn?t even want to reveal his true identity until he?s basically forced to, because he wants his son to have a clean slate free and clear of that bs. If he really wanted to avoid all this I guess he shoulda used a rubber or abstained, but this is a red blooded Spartan we?re talking about. Some things you just can?t shake I suppose.

In the very first PS2 game I'd agree with you. From what I've gathered about the sequels, baring the most recent one, not so much. Everything I hear about God of War 2 & 3 tells me that he was reduced to a shallow characterture of what he was in the first game. And even in the first game what depth he had wasn't all that deep.

The funny thing about God of War 2's story progression is that that game was lead and directed by Corey Balrog who is the lead director for the newest God of War game and its story and gameplay.

I'm guessing either he personally went into the newest one with a different idea for creative direction than he did GoW2 or, much more likely, the new creative direction was mandated from on high.

Cory Barlog originally went to SMS?s lead with the idea who liked it, but he still had to pitch the shit out of it to Sony, who was very reluctant to bring the series back so soon. They wanted to let it lie indefinitely after the lukewarm reception Ascension had. There are YouTube videos elaborating on both the pitch and the need for a new direction (basically ?we?ve all grown up and have our own kids now, etc.?)

 

[Avnger]

And I guess I was just more upset at these gaming media people disregarding the older games, I mean one of them said they only ever tried the demo of GOW 3. And I feel this same media has very short memories.

1. Generalizing the media by a few accounts isn't a good base for a honest discusion (or a healty opinion for that matter).

2. There is an ugly side of searching for validation: instead of trying to comprehend the arguments you disagree with, you are first searching for reasons to invalidate them (lots of them arbitrary). That's a very unhealty approach.

3. Why are you surprised about the short memory? After all, a lot of veterans in the media left after 2014 (guess why).

Came in here to make pretty much this same post, but you put it better than I would have.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Not forget he killed his family, as in he seeks redemption and wants to move on.

Every day he still remembers vividly him killing his wife and child.

He wants to be rid of his PTSD.

Also NO ONE thought him killing that slave girl was "AW MAN DID YOU SEE THAT, AWESOME" it wasn't even portrayed as such. It just reinfornced the fact that Kratos just doesn't care any more. So fully consumed by hate and vengence while also a tortured soul that his humanity is long since lost.

Except that slave girl sequence is immediately followed by Kratos being all concerned for Pandora, only adding to the dumbness. And no, that scene was there only for the sake of gratiutous shock value, the same as ripping out Kronos' finger nail, and ripping off Helios' head, since that's what the fans have come to expect. It's not supposed to reflect on Kratos or make us hate him, it's just there for us to go 'OH SHIT!!!! I wonder what other nasty, brutal shit he's gonna do.'

Similar to how the sex mini-games served no purpose other than juvenile indulgence. I even saw a video trying to twist those scenes into having actual depth, by claiming it shows these women having no respect for Kratos and only using him for sex, thereby adding to the tragedy of his character. Yeah... Bull. Shit.

And that PTSD might've been a thing in GoW1, but from that point onward he's on asshole auto-pilot. And whatever the PSP games tried to do, it gets completely ignored by the mainline games.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Exactly. He doesn?t even want to reveal his true identity until he?s basically forced to, because he wants his son to have a clean slate free and clear of that bs. If he really wanted to avoid all this I guess he shoulda used a rubber or abstained, but this is a red blooded Spartan we?re talking about. Some things you just can?t shake I suppose.

Well, have you finished the game? Because there's some implications near the end that... uh, show Kratos wasn't really that in the loop about a lot of things regarding his little wifey.

 

[CritialGaming]

Why does Kratos need to be a deep character? Why can't he just be a video game character?

Remember when we used to play video games and the only story we got was "Go right and jump over/onto shit until you reach the end"? Why can't the previous Kratos be that?

The new God of War takes a different approach to the character and the storytelling aspect of the game as a whole. And while it is technically a sequel, it is also as much of a reboot as it is a sequel. Therefore the previous GoW games and be extension, past Kratos himself, don't matter other than fan servicey references and a breif acknowledgement that the events in those games happened. But we don't need to compare the Kratos from 1-3 to the Kratos from 4.

Now we are in a new land, new pantheon, and have a brand new Kratos. A better Kratos for sure, though not a better game. Storywise the game is fantastic, the set pieces and the world are a wonderful new direction for the series. But the combat is disappointing, because call it whatever you like, you are catering to a fanbase with God 4 War and that fanbase has expectations of combat, a way we liked things beforehand with a combat system that worked perfectly well. The new prespective fucks with spacing and dodge timing, both of which are things the game demands of you. Not to mention there is an rather small amount of enemy variety, leading to a lot of "boss" encounters being with the same rock-man, or teleporty witch-bitches over and over again.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Not forget he killed his family, as in he seeks redemption and wants to move on.

Every day he still remembers vividly him killing his wife and child.

He wants to be rid of his PTSD.

Also NO ONE thought him killing that slave girl was "AW MAN DID YOU SEE THAT, AWESOME" it wasn't even portrayed as such. It just reinfornced the fact that Kratos just doesn't care any more. So fully consumed by hate and vengence while also a tortured soul that his humanity is long since lost.

Except that slave girl sequence is immediately followed by Kratos being all concerned for Pandora, only adding to the dumbness. And no, that scene was there only for the sake of gratiutous shock value, the same as ripping out Kronos' finger nail, and ripping off Helios' head, since that's what the fans have come to expect. It's not supposed to reflect on Kratos or make us hate him, it's just there for us to go 'OH SHIT!!!! I wonder what other nasty, brutal shit he's gonna do.'

Similar to how the sex mini-games served no purpose other than juvenile indulgence. I even saw a video trying to twist those scenes into having actual depth, by claiming it shows these women having no respect for Kratos and only using him for sex, thereby adding to the tragedy of his character. Yeah... Bull. Shit.

And that PTSD might've been a thing in GoW1, but from that point onward he's on asshole auto-pilot. And whatever the PSP games tried to do, it gets completely ignored by the mainline games.

It wasn't the first time Kratos killed an innocent person randomly.

In God of War 1 you see him hurl a lightning bolt at a guy and killed him because in panic he refused to flip a switch to extend a bridge (And some how killing him flipped the switch)

Than he willfully sacrificed a caged man to burn to death with him begging for mercy everytime.

And thirdly the cinematic of him killing people randomly in the name of Ares.

Kratos was never portrayed as a "hero" and I think from the beginning they knew that.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

In the very first PS2 game I'd agree with you. From what I've gathered about the sequels, baring the most recent one, not so much. Everything I hear about God of War 2 & 3 tells me that he was reduced to a shallow characterture of what he was in the first game. And even in the first game what depth he had wasn't all that deep.

The funny thing about God of War 2's story progression is that that game was lead and directed by Corey Balrog who is the lead director for the newest God of War game and its story and gameplay.

I'm guessing either he personally went into the newest one with a different idea for creative direction than he did GoW2 or, much more likely, the new creative direction was mandated from on high.

Cory Barlog originally went to SMS?s lead with the idea who liked it, but he still had to pitch the shit out of it to Sony, who was very reluctant to bring the series back so soon. They wanted to let it lie indefinitely after the lukewarm reception Ascension had. There are YouTube videos elaborating on both the pitch and the need for a new direction (basically ?we?ve all grown up and have our own kids now, etc.?)

Well I did say it was either he grew out of the shallow mindless violence of GoW2 or the new direction was mandated. Guess it was the first one.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Exactly. He doesn?t even want to reveal his true identity until he?s basically forced to, because he wants his son to have a clean slate free and clear of that bs. If he really wanted to avoid all this I guess he shoulda used a rubber or abstained, but this is a red blooded Spartan we?re talking about. Some things you just can?t shake I suppose.

Well, have you finished the game? Because there's some implications near the end that... uh, show Kratos wasn't really that in the loop about a lot of things regarding his little wifey.

I haven't had time yet. Still only at the part with the spinning rings puzzle in Tyr's Temple.