The $16 million drama between CDPR and Andrzej Sapkowski (and stubborn gaming industry stigmas)

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Kerg3927

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CaitSeith said:
Kerg3927 said:
Silentpony said:
To me its more like you bought a used car from someone, and then after seeing you've driven it happily for 10 years to a well paying job, they're now demanding more money.
Yeah, except scale that up by a factor of tens of thousands. You sell your used car for $10,000. Then later it's discovered that it is an ultra rare model, and it's the only one of its kind in existance and worth $300 million. Is there anyone in this thread who wouldn't feel at least a little bit like they got screwed? Is there anyone here who honestly would be too proud to ask for a small cut of that?
"Asking" is one thing. Taking legal action to get your cut is something entirely different (and pretty low).
But that's how things usually work in the business world. Rarely does a company voluntarily give money away without legal action or the threat of legal action. Those CDPR executives have a duty to their shareholders to maximize profits, which means parting with as little money as is legally possible.

Like they say in the Godfather movies, this is business, not personal.

The outcome will be determined mathematically. CDPR will try to assign a monetary value to the risk of litigation. What is the probably of losing a lawsuit if it proceeds to trial? If that probability is say 10%, then they'll likely settle for around 10% of the asking price, which would be $1.6M in this case.

I say let the court system sort it out. That's what it's there for.
 

Xprimentyl

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It?s easy to sympathize with Sapkowski; anyone who so severely undersold rights to a property, intellectual or otherwise, would wish to recoup what they lost (well, ?missed out on,?) but he ultimately deserves nothing. Had CDPR paid him the amount agreed upon, and the Witcher games gone on to flop, would it be reasonable think CDPR could ask for some of their money back from Sapkowski? Of course not. I could understand if CDPR had somehow had precognitive knowledge of their inevitable, rampant success and intentionally underbought the rights from Sapkowski, but that?s neither the case nor possible. It was CDPR?s gamble and effort; Sapkowski shared none of the risk, pocketed what he deemed was a fair price and eschewed residuals? Yeah, there?s no question here. If CDPR ends up legally obligated to give him anything, I?ll be shocked; it?d set an uncomfortable precedent that creators who buy rights from anyone should beware that the seller can simple show up with their hands out for more when the creator has seen any level of success with what they rightfully bought.
 

CaitSeith

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Kerg3927 said:
CaitSeith said:
"Asking" is one thing. Taking legal action to get your cut is something entirely different (and pretty low).
But that's how things usually work in the business world.
No. That's what happens in the business world when negotiations go wrong (or when one part doesn't want to negotiate at all). Did he attempt to re-negotiate the deal before legal action? CDPR seemed pretty eager to give him a fair share in the past; so what happened now?
 

CaitSeith

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Addendum_Forthcoming said:
If I could legally claim all the money I didn't make from all the business risks I didn't take, I'd be so filthy rich I could buy any damn building in the World.
I'm sorry ... since when did risk determine validity of ownership and creative patronage?
Since never. The validity comes from the deals you make. But he now wants the validity from the deal he didn't make too. That's like if you took the low-risk investments only, and a few years later, seeing how better the high-risk performed, you demand to your broker the money you would had made from that investment too.
 

Kerg3927

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CaitSeith said:
Kerg3927 said:
CaitSeith said:
"Asking" is one thing. Taking legal action to get your cut is something entirely different (and pretty low).
But that's how things usually work in the business world.
No. That's what happens in the business world when negotiations go wrong (or when one part doesn't want to negotiate at all). Did he attempt to re-negotiate the deal before legal action? CDPR seemed pretty eager to give him a fair share in the past; so what happened now?
Isn't that what he's doing now? I don't think he's sued yet. Negotiating pre-suit is all part of the legal process. That letter was to get CDPR to come to the table to negotiate. If those pre-suit negotiations break down, then a suit will likely be filed, and then there will be further negotiation as they try to reach a settlement. They will come to a settlement at some point.

Again, I doubt that CDPR's or Sapkowski's lawyers are taking this personally. We shouldn't, either.
 

Terminal Blue

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Bilious Green said:
Given that Sapkowski ripped off Michael Moorcock's Elric, I hope CDPR fights it all the way and he gets to eat a bag of dicks.
The weird thing about the whole Moorcock issue is that if Sapkowski just came out and said "yeah, I was inspired by Moorcock" noone would care. Derivative fantasy is fine. In fact, fantasy is almost by definition a derivative genre. GRR Martin rips off Moorcock all the time, but he's also made it clear he's fully aware of what he's doing and is doing it to signpost one of his inspirations. Heck, Moorcock himself has always been very openly about his inspirations. The problem with the Witcher is that Sapkowski outright denies any connection, which isn't plagiarism but kind of makes you an asshole. Combined with this incident, it doesn't paint a great picture of his character.

Unfortunately, the law doesn't care if you're an asshole, so the chances are he'll be fine. They'll probably settle out of court, because I don't think either actually wants this to proceed to court. Sapkowski's case sounds pretty sketchy, but at the same time it is a case and having it go to court would probably hurt CDPR financially more than just kicking a little money.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

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evilthecat said:
Bilious Green said:
Given that Sapkowski ripped off Michael Moorcock's Elric, I hope CDPR fights it all the way and he gets to eat a bag of dicks.
The weird thing about the whole Moorcock issue is that if Sapkowski just came out and said "yeah, I was inspired by Moorcock" noone would care. Derivative fantasy is fine. In fact, fantasy is almost by definition a derivative genre. GRR Martin rips off Moorcock all the time, but he's also made it clear he's fully aware of what he's doing and is doing it to signpost one of his inspirations. Heck, Moorcock himself has always been very openly about his inspirations. The problem with the Witcher is that Sapkowski outright denies any connection, which isn't plagiarism but kind of makes you an asshole. Combined with this incident, it doesn't paint a great picture of his character.

Unfortunately, the law doesn't care if you're an asshole, so the chances are he'll be fine. They'll probably settle out of court, because I don't think either actually wants this to proceed to court. Sapkowski's case sounds pretty sketchy, but at the same time it is a case and having it go to court would probably hurt CDPR financially more than just kicking a little money.
The only 'weird' thing is that accusation itself. These are grossly different writing styles of books and characters. The only common thing is character's general appearance traits... However Michael Moorcock was an unknown author in this part of the world and first translation and publication of his works showed up half a decade... after Witcher.
One of the many reasons why when this whole train wreck was dragged to court they were laughed at back to doors. It just doesn't hold any merit except disgruntled Moorcocks salty fans feelings and maybe author's pride (accusations surfaced only after CDPR made Witcher famous). Earlier nobody cared. If you read both and are surprised there are similarities, sit down and for next week try to come up with your own idea that you are sure nobody else came up with ever before. Then google it for instant reality check (or maybe authors should be obligated to add numbers like with 'original nicknames 'the white wolf_2387' aka Jon Snow ;) ).
 

Satinavian

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Agree with Jamcie.

Moorcock was pretty much completely unknown in Poland at the time the Witcher was written. It is still not well known. And the similarities are pretty superficial.
Sapkowski is probably telling the truth here.
 

Terminal Blue

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Jamcie Kerbizz said:
The only 'weird' thing is that accusation itself. These are grossly different writing styles of books and characters. The only common thing is character's general appearance traits... However Michael Moorcock was an unknown author in this part of the world and first translation and publication of his works showed up half a decade... after Witcher.
Even discounting unofficial (fan) translations, there have been Polish translations of the first Elric book since the mid-80s, and however well known they were in Poland it shouldn't really be weird to believe that a fantasy author would be a fan of the fantasy genre and seek out and read other people's work. Heck, we know that Sapkowski reads a lot of fantasy, because he wrote a encyclopedia of the fantasy genre, which includes references to the Elric setting.

And the similarity goes far beyond the character's appearance, and are too blatant to be coincidental. Just a random example, in the Witcher there is a historical event called the "conjunction of the spheres", where different worlds of the multiverse came together, resulting in the various creatures of we find in the Witcher setting being found in the same place. In the late 70s, Moorcock included a reference to an event called the "conjunction of a million spheres" in an Elric short story. Again, an event in which the various planes in the multiverse come together, causing reality to be altered.

And again, this is not a bad thing. Virtually any fantasy story with a burned out, antihero protagonist who doesn't fit into society is in some way inspired by Moorcock and the Elric series to some degree. Drizzt' do Urden is inspired by Elric, and he's a totally different character because he has black skin instead of white skin. The entirety house Targaryen (and also Brynden Rivers in particular) from a song of ice and fire are one big Elric reference (they are albinos who literally come from a lost magical kingdom with draconic associations which once ruled much of the world using sorcery but has collapsed). These are fine because they are knowing and deliberate references by authors who understand that fantasy is a self-referential genre, not something they single-handedly created. Again, Martin in particular has been very open about his influences.

And again, there is no obligation to acknowledge your influences, it's just kind of assholish to deny any connection to people you clearly were inspired by.

Jamcie Kerbizz said:
One of the many reasons why when this whole train wreck was dragged to court they were laughed at back to doors.
It never went to court. Moorcock has stated publicly that he feels Sapkowski crossed a line, but the line wasn't borrowing from his work or writing similar characters or ideas (plenty of people have done that, and Moorcock has his own stable of inspirations), the line was refusing to acknowledge having done so. Legally there is no doubt that Sapkowski is within his rights. As mentioned, the question is not whether he plagiarised, the question is whether he was unfair in failing to acknowledge his references, which just based on simple professional courtesy and kindness I think he was.

That's the irony here. Noone would care if he'd just said "it was a homage" or "it was a reference" or even "it was critique/parody". What bothers people is the discourtesy of not acknowledging your inspirations.

Jamcie Kerbizz said:
Then google it for instant reality check (or maybe authors should be obligated to add numbers like with 'original nicknames 'the white wolf_2387' aka Jon Snow ;) ).
Right, again though, the reason noone cares about Jon Snow is because GRR Martin cites Moorcock as an influence. Martin's writing is incredibly metatextual and full of references to other fantasy authors and their work, but he's doing it on purpose and acknowledging that he's doing it. Often, the references are fun easter eggs for people who read a lot fantasy which he does because he's a fan of fantasy himself, that's why he writes it. He's not pretending its his own original ideas and denying having been influenced by any of the people he references.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

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evilthecat said:
And the similarity goes far beyond the character's appearance, and are too blatant to be coincidental. Just a random example, in the Witcher there is a historical event called the "conjunction of the spheres", where different worlds of the multiverse came together, resulting in the various creatures of we find in the Witcher setting being found in the same place. In the late 70s, Moorcock included a reference to an event called the "conjunction of a million spheres" in an Elric short story. Again, an event in which the various planes in the multiverse come together, causing reality to be altered.
As I said if you believe that this idea is original and belongs to Moorcock you should start googling. Try Russian and Asian authors as well.
 

Terminal Blue

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Jamcie Kerbizz said:
As I said if you believe that this idea is original and belongs to Moorcock you should start googling. Try Russian and Asian authors as well.
No. I don't. I don't think you're reading what I'm saying.

I don't think any fantasy is original. It is by definition a derivative genre, and that's fine. It's okay to be derivative. If it wasn't, then Tolkien's estate would be suing everyone, before being sued itself by a bunch of dead Anglo-Saxons and Scandinavians.

The problem is not a problem of ownership or intellectual property, it's a problem of professional courtesy.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

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evilthecat said:
Jamcie Kerbizz said:
As I said if you believe that this idea is original and belongs to Moorcock you should start googling. Try Russian and Asian authors as well.
No. I don't. I don't think you're reading what I'm saying.

I don't think any fantasy is original. It is by definition a derivative genre, and that's fine. It's okay to be derivative. If it wasn't, then Tolkien's estate would be suing everyone, before being sued itself by a bunch of dead Anglo-Saxons and Scandinavians.

The problem is not a problem of ownership or intellectual property, it's a problem of professional courtesy.
Ok if you agree these are not Moorcock original ideas, why would another author need to mention him? Especially if he was asked if he drew inspiration from Moorcock books and declined?

Like I mentioned in initial post, I know that Sapkowski is a giant douche. That doesn't mean free reign on accusing him of any asshattery and it's true by default. Especially when it is something so unbelievably far reaching.

I hope you realize that in 70-80s he lived in country which he was not allowed to leave, that had police shooting workers protesting on the streets (to point of introducing Martial Law and police hour), no internet (hell no phones at all for the most part except party dignitaries...) and smuggling of any materials from 'the west' was a crime without any clear classification and punishment. You could end up in prison, being tortured or killed, if materials were deemed 'western propaganda' or just goons that 'investigated' you had a worse day and beat you to death instead of teaching you a lesson and forcing you to work for them and rat out others for something, anything.
Hardly a place where you were free to get acquaint with your preferred selection of 'recent' literature from the other side of the world over a glass of red wine.
Besides as I mentioned, if Moorcock books were popularized (unofficially) and deemed good in Poland they'd just get straight out pirated and published. They weren't.

Anecdotes of his lawyers getting laughed at trying to file a suit in Poland (thus officially never have managed to do so) are as credible as assumption that Sapkowski got a hold of illegal, second hand copy of his books and decided to plagiarize it.
I'd go with both of them dipping into same pool of folklore, superstitions and legends and cooking out of it similar heroes. Story, style of writing and theme of books themselves are clearly different even though it is fantasy setting in both cases.

If you still believe that Sapkowski owes Moorcock honorary mentions, just as well Japanese could drag out whichever author included in fantasy Kuji-Goshinjutsu first and accuse Sapkowski of ripping that off as witcher magic signs. They should be careful though, Greeks might accuse them of ripping Kintaro off their Hercules. Sad thing is that old bastard probably would be able to tell us which modern author was first to put in Kuji-Goshinjutsu in his book and that in eyes of his detractors would be a damming evidence.
 

Satinavian

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evilthecat said:
The problem is not a problem of ownership or intellectual property, it's a problem of professional courtesy.
Only if it actually happened, which is very unlikely.
 

Terminal Blue

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Jamcie Kerbizz said:
Ok if you agree these are not Moorcock original ideas, why would another author need to mention him? Especially if he was asked if he drew inspiration from Moorcock books and declined?
Well, because elements of the ideas are clearly Moorcock's, and the similarities once you add them all up may be superficial, but they are too coincidental to be an accident. Again, the point was not that the "convergence of (million) spheres" is an original concept of Moorcock, but translation aside he removed one word from the Moorcock's in-universe technical term. Seriously.

And it's not really a question of needing to mention someone so much as don't come out and deny that someone was not an influence on your writing when they clearly were. It's particularly baffling because Sapkowski has never denied reading the Elric series and has (and I went and looked this up) actually cited it in interviews as one of the things that got him into fantasy. Pretending that it had no bearing on the Witcher books is bizarre, because at this point crediting the inspiration would cost literally nothing. Noone would care if he wrote a work of derivative fantasy, that's normal.

But, and I'm going to bring the Witcher games back in, Sapkowski clearly doesn't see it that way, and has made it clear that he sees derivative fiction as lesser or inferior, because that is how he talks about the Witcher games. To him, the Witcher is his unique creation and a story noone else can tell. To someone who thinks like that, I can see why admitting that elements of your story were inspired by someone else could be seen as reducing the value of that story, but it's a weird, unreasonable and ultimately egotistical way to think about writing and creativity which denies others the credit they deserve.

Jamcie Kerbizz said:
I hope you realize that in 70-80s he lived in country which he was not allowed to leave, that had police shooting workers protesting on the streets (to point of introducing Martial Law and police hour), no internet (hell no phones at all for the most part except party dignitaries...) and smuggling of any materials from 'the west' was a crime without any clear classification and punishment. You could end up in prison, being tortured or killed, if materials were deemed 'western propaganda' or just goons that 'investigated' you had a worse day and beat you to death instead of teaching you a lesson and forcing you to work for them and rat out others for something, anything.
Me and fantasy, it was love at first sight. I remember reading Tolkien for the first time, in the sixties ? Tolkien was published in Poland in the early sixties, practically at the same time as in the United States.

I was utterly enchanted. Then Ursula Le Guin with Earthsea, Roger Zelazny with Amber, Michael Moorcock with Elric of Melnibone, Jack Vance with Lyonesse, Stephen R. Donaldson with Thomas Covenant, Marion Zimmer Bradley with The Mists of Avalon. In 1985, when ?Fantastyka?, then the only Polish SF magazine, announced a literary competition, I decided ? till today I don?t know why ? to take part and write a short story. A fantasy short story, of course. And so it started.
That's Sapkowksi, describing how he became a fantasy writer.

Satinavian said:
Only if it actually happened, which is very unlikely.
See above.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

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evilthecat said:
Jamcie Kerbizz said:
Ok if you agree these are not Moorcock original ideas, why would another author need to mention him? Especially if he was asked if he drew inspiration from Moorcock books and declined?
Well, because elements of the ideas are clearly Moorcock's, and the similarities once you add them all up may be superficial, but they are too coincidental to be an accident. Again, the point was not that the "convergence of (million) spheres" is an original concept of Moorcock, but translation aside he removed one word from the Moorcock's in-universe technical term. Seriously.

And it's not really a question of needing to mention someone so much as don't come out and deny that someone was not an influence on your writing when they clearly were. It's particularly baffling because Sapkowski has never denied reading the Elric series and has (and I went and looked this up) actually cited it in interviews as one of the things that got him into fantasy. Pretending that it had no bearing on the Witcher books is bizarre, because at this point crediting the inspiration would cost literally nothing. Noone would care if he wrote a work of derivative fantasy, that's normal.

But, and I'm going to bring the Witcher games back in, Sapkowski clearly doesn't see it that way, and has made it clear that he sees derivative fiction as lesser or inferior, because that is how he talks about the Witcher games. To him, the Witcher is his unique creation and a story noone else can tell. To someone who thinks like that, I can see why admitting that elements of your story were inspired by someone else could be seen as reducing the value of that story, but it's a weird, unreasonable and ultimately egotistical way to think about writing and creativity which denies others the credit they deserve.

Jamcie Kerbizz said:
I hope you realize that in 70-80s he lived in country which he was not allowed to leave, that had police shooting workers protesting on the streets (to point of introducing Martial Law and police hour), no internet (hell no phones at all for the most part except party dignitaries...) and smuggling of any materials from 'the west' was a crime without any clear classification and punishment. You could end up in prison, being tortured or killed, if materials were deemed 'western propaganda' or just goons that 'investigated' you had a worse day and beat you to death instead of teaching you a lesson and forcing you to work for them and rat out others for something, anything.
Me and fantasy, it was love at first sight. I remember reading Tolkien for the first time, in the sixties ? Tolkien was published in Poland in the early sixties, practically at the same time as in the United States.

I was utterly enchanted. Then Ursula Le Guin with Earthsea, Roger Zelazny with Amber, Michael Moorcock with Elric of Melnibone, Jack Vance with Lyonesse, Stephen R. Donaldson with Thomas Covenant, Marion Zimmer Bradley with The Mists of Avalon. In 1985, when ?Fantastyka?, then the only Polish SF magazine, announced a literary competition, I decided ? till today I don?t know why ? to take part and write a short story. A fantasy short story, of course. And so it started.
That's Sapkowksi, describing how he became a fantasy writer.

Satinavian said:
Only if it actually happened, which is very unlikely.
See above.
You do realize that this counters your own points?

(1) I could argue Sapkowski does give Moorcock the mention you so hard press for...
(2) Author mentions when and how his fascination with fantasy started. With Tolkien (and he tells that as a question unsure of the timeframe... intervoew is almost half century after that) and 'Fantastyka'.

Look up what was written in 'Fantastyka'... There is no timeline here you try to impose on the author. He said he started with Tolkien which was indeed published. He also lists all of the authors he appreciates and read later on (there's nothing mentioned that it was in time you try to frame it in... just cause that would be convenient to your narrative).

Why would he have to deny that he read the author? You really push inquisitorial style of justice: mere conjecture of committing the crime, equals guilt until proven innocence, denial is just heretic being stubborn.

Cobbling up 'facts' from out of context pieces of what author said in interview 30 years later is unsightly.
Earlier in this piece Sapkowski even declares directly he takes from already established folklore and reuses it. Just like that. Doesn't invent it, doesn't claim it belongs to him. Apparently something you try to do in Moorcock's name.