The American Civil War

[UtopiaV1]

So, I love history, and I especially like to study war, and recently I downloaded the Blue and the Grey mod for Empire Total War. I decided to read up on this civil war, because I had already seen a couple of films (Gods and Generals, and Gettysburg) previously, and yesterday I read this article on Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

How accurate is this article? I was under the impression from other sources that slavery hadn't been abolished in the North until about mid-way through the war, as part of a recruitment drive. Is that untrue? Also, I thought that the Confederates wanted the British to rule the American Colonies again, in conjunction with the would-be newly-established Confederate government. Is this also bollocks?

It's difficult getting an unbiased view of history, because the victors write the history books, and all sources (from either side) seems to have an agenda! Anyway, tell me what you were taught in school, and please tell me if I'm wrong, because I really wanna find out exactly what happened (as in the causes of, and politics of, the US civil war).

 

[kikon9]

The confederates didn't want to be ruled by Britain again, they wanted to become their own country just like the Union did way back when.

 

[JoJo]

I don't live in the US so I never learned this in detail but I thought that most of the Northern states of the US abolished slavery in their own state some time before the American Civil War. And no, they wouldn't have wanted the British to rule them, for one thing slavery had been banned by the British for several decades at that time.

 

[RebelRising]

I can't stay for long, but from what I know, the relationship between the South and Britain was purely one of economic interests; the South did have a huge cotton trade. Relinquishing any land back to them wasn't in the plans, and the South merely wanted to secede from the North so they could retain their states rights, including that of slavery.

Oh, and a little bit of trivia: the Confederate Consititution basically copied most the U.S. Consitution word for word, as well as a ban on secession.

 

[Worgen]

nah the confeds had no intention of being ruled by Britain. Slavery was a big issue but the big rallying cry that the confeds loved was one of the same ones we here now, big government, they thought states should have the right to treat certain citizens like shit while the govt thought they shouldnt be able to... well thats a fantastic simplification of it but you get the idea, states rights

 

[Arkvoodle]

From what I remember in history class, the Civil War arose due to conflicts about the rights of each state- while some places would have you believe the war was for the freedom of slaves the "true" issue at play was the question of whether or not officials have the right to decide what is best for the states under their control.

 

[crazyguy668]

many northern states had previously banned slavery, but it was not national law until the Emancipation Proclamation, after Gettysburg i believe

lincoln has been qouted as saying that he just wanted to preserve the Union. Public approval was toward small government and states rights, so freedom of slaves was more to unify the north under a cause

 

[Exterminas]

History of reasons why something happened is never accurate, you always have to judge things. You can base your judgement on evidence, but what evidence is reliable is up to you.

In school I was tougth that the main reason for the civil war was the incresing cultural and economical diversity between the north and the south, that eventually collided over some tax for the export of ressources (cotton etc) that forced the south to sell it's goods to the north, boosting their economy, instead of selling it to the british, for bigger profit. Don't pin me down on the exact details, but I remember it was supposed to be a tax thing.

But that's the thing about history. None of us was there, neither were historians. They have to base their judgement on the stuff they have accesible today, which unfortinately isn't always guaranteed to provide an accuarte picture. Furthermore almost no historical event has ONE cause. Things have to come together for things to start happening.

As for the whole slavery thing. I believe back in thos times things varried a lot more from stete to state. Some nothern states abolished slavery earlier than others. Again, I'm not really sure about that. I just wanted to mention that history is neither always an exact science, free of any matters of interpretation, nor a game of domino. You know, before people start throwing fire at eachother, because someone said good old Abe wasn't all about freedom for slaves, or something like that.

 

[Xpwn3ntial]

many northern states had previously banned slavery, but it was not national law until the Emancipation Proclamation, after Gettysburg i believe

That proclamation was a symbol, not a law. It had no weight until after Lincoln's death and the Constitution was amended to make it official.

OT: I learned in school that the true cause of the Civil War was whether the national government or the states had the right to make important decisions, since technically the Constitution said little concerning the issue at hand (whether a vote by population or a statute would decide the fate of a territory's ascension tot state).

 

[IronDefender410]

The Confederacy didn't want Britain to rule, only to help them them win. The North was a bit hypocritical because they did still have slaves (like you said) untill about 3 years into the war. I'm surpised that you want to learn more on this subject, with you not living in the US and all.

 

[electric discordian]

According to a book I have recently read the whole of the American Civil war was due to Vampires.

It was in a book so it must be true!

in seriousness I did once read that Lincoln sent a letter to the Prince Regent which had to be so heavily censored that it was covered in Black ink except for the dear sir and yours A Lincoln!

I used to be obsessed with the A.C.W. until I found out how dull re-enacting that period is! Marching fire rifle, march, fire rifle. etc

My love switched to the Norsemen and I never looked back, its also easier to find Viking sites within an hours drive. As not many battles took place in Manchester! Though we had loads of mills producing the cotton products which were fed raw materials by slaves from the Americas!

 

[DarthLurtz]

Most of the Northern States had banned slavery prior to the war.

The Emancipation Proclamation only said that states defeated in war would have to give up slaves.

The South hoped the British would assist them due to the cotton trade; unfortunately for them, the British were having fun in India, and found cotton would grow there quite well.

 

[CarpathianMuffin]

The Confederacy didn't want Britain to rule, only to help them them win. The North was a bit hypocritical because they did still have slaves (like you said) untill about 3 years into the war. I'm surpised that you want to learn more on this subject, with you not living in the US and all.

This. I mean it's an interesting war, but I don't know anybody outside the US who wants to learn about it.

The whole thing had been brewing for years, especially in the recent Midwest states. Before then, the slave states and Northern states had the right to choose whether they wanted slaves or not. It was pretty even until... I think it was Kansas, came into the union. Both the slave states and free states flooded it with people who'd vote either for or against the slaves. This led to a miniature Civil War in of itself, where the slave and free towns led raids on the other. With some other anti/pro slavery shenanigans going on in the other states, things become tense until Lincoln got elected.
That's part of where the misconception comes that it was fully about slavery. The southern states were worried that if the free states outnumbered them, any bill proposed to weaken their rights to have slaves would be passed with little resistance.
Then when Lincoln got elected, the southern states were all "Fuck this shit" and seceded.
It was fully about states' rights, with slavery being just one of the issues, albeit the backbone of both sides' platforms.

The British sent very little assistance, mostly due to Union interference.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Lincoln, and many abolitionist, actually believed Slavery would die on its own if left be. This is what happened in the North. Before and during the War, certain states banned slavery. There was really no 'Federal banning' of slavery until the Emancipation Proclamation, and that only applied to Confederate States.

As for British rule... the PEOPLE of Britain actually support the American Union, especially after the Emancipation Proclamation. The leaders of Britain supported the Confederacy... not so much to get the land back (They had given up on this by this point), but to prove that the US had been WRONG. The Confederates only attempted to ally with Britain so that the Southern blockade could be broken once and for all (Though cutter ships frequently broke through the blockade of the South, they never could get enough through for a steady influx of war winning material.

EDIT: Also, a very large party of Democrats of the day in the Union actually supported the right to own slaves. Anyone else find this... suspicious? Or just kind of funny?

 

[SadakoMoose]

Parts of the Confederacy believed that the British would back them up because of their dependence on American cotton.
The Southern Secession was primarily the initiative of wealthy plantation owners and aristocrats who wanted to protect their trade. The American South had missed the industrial revolution because of our awful roads and ultra slow mail delivery system. As a result, they 80% agricultural and had convinced themselves, over the years, that they required slave labor to power their highly profitable cotton and tobacco industry.
Most southerners were, as a result, dirt poor and had been subsistence farmers for generations. They couldn't own slaves, and in many cases, lived in conditions that were almost as bad as the slaves.
This created a very divided South, with most people opposed to the idea of going to war with their own national government. But since they weren't the ones with the money, they didn't get a choice.
As a matter of fact, just after the South seceded, areas WITHIN the South seceded FROM the Confederacy. Such as the Republic of Winston County.
Missouri and Kansas were initially neutral, but were later invaded by both the Union and Confederacy.
What really pushed the matter to war had to do with the addition of states.
This was during a period of time when the US was expanding rapidly.
More and more territories in the west were being cut out into their current shapes and made into full states. In the mid 19th century, we added Texas (who had initially wanted to be a part of Mexico, until the Mexican government abolished slavery). This ruined the balance of power between representatives from Abolition states vs Slave states in the congress and caused greater tension in the slavery debate. Then we added California and Oregon, two abolition states. The problem with this move, however, was the size of the Oregon territory.
We had initially hoped to set Oregon so that it ended on 54 longitude 40 latitude North, where British Columbia is today. We ended up setting it much farther down in order to avoid war with Great Britain, however. This, combined with other disputes over how states would decide over whether or not they'd allow slavery and an increasingly bloody civil war in Kansas (referred to Bleeding Kansas at the time) created the perfect environment for a Civil War.
Oh, also, Britain was caught manufacturing semi submersible gunboats for the confederacy.
Ultimately, Prime Minister Palmerston and Foreign Secretary Russell decided that the war wouldn't have been worth the cost, and that they would lose their American trading partners.
After the war we demanded a settlement for the damage that the British made ships caused during the war, and received 15 million American dollars for the trouble on behalf of Prime Minister William Gladstone, who wanted us to be allies in the future.
Hope that helps.

 

[Megalodon]

many northern states had previously banned slavery, but it was not national law until the Emancipation Proclamation, after Gettysburg i believe

That proclamation was a symbol, not a law. It had no weight until after Lincoln's death and the Constitution was amended to make it official.

A damn effective symbol, as it put an end to any chance that Britain (and France) would join the war on the side of the Confederacy. The people would not stand for entering a war if it looked like they were defending slavery. Without the Proclamation European involvement was highly likely, especailly as Britain almost got involved in 1861 if not for Prince Albert, who died later that year.

 

[Xpwn3ntial]

many northern states had previously banned slavery, but it was not national law until the Emancipation Proclamation, after Gettysburg i believe

That proclamation was a symbol, not a law. It had no weight until after Lincoln's death and the Constitution was amended to make it official.

A damn effective symbol, as it put an end to any chance that Britain (and France) would join the war on the side of the Confederacy. The people would not stand for entering a war if it looked like they were defending slavery. Without the Proclamation European involvement was highly likely, especailly as Britain almost got involved in 1861 if not for Prince Albert, who died later that year.

Hmm, I didn't know that. Well, this is the new thing I learned today.

 

[UtopiaV1]

Thanks everyone for a little confirmation on the subject. So the wiki article isn't just Northern propaganda then!

The Confederacy didn't want Britain to rule, only to help them them win. The North was a bit hypocritical because they did still have slaves (like you said) untill about 3 years into the war. I'm surpised that you want to learn more on this subject, with you not living in the US and all.

I love learning about all warfare across all nations, and civil wars particularly. Imagine fighting not a foreign enemy, but your own neighbors, friends, even family! You're fighting someone who can actually beg for their life in your own language, it humanizes the enemy. Ask any general, he'll say that's a bad thing! It must be a particularly hurtful thing, to fight your own countrymen.

I first read up about the Korean civil war, sparked by the film 'Brotherhood'. Then I read about the Chinese civil war (1950's one at first, not any of the dozens of the other civil wars they had til later eg. yellow turban rebellion, war of three kingdoms etc!) because it wasn't that far to go . Then, because I'm British, I read about the English civil war (it's something I should've really known in the first place), so now i'm heading further west!

I used to be obsessed with the A.C.W. until I found out how dull re-enacting that period is! Marching fire rifle, march, fire rifle. etc

My love switched to the Norsemen and I never looked back, its also easier to find Viking sites within an hours drive. As not many battles took place in Manchester!

The warfare of the period really interests me, but I can see how the individual might find it boring at re-enactments (the order and discipline of it all was really to make it easier for the generals). Know any good re-enacts in the Lancashire area, cos I wouldn't mind seeing a couple!

 

[UtopiaV1]

Parts of the Confederacy believed that the British would back them up because of their dependence on American cotton.
The Southern Secession was primarily the initiative of wealthy plantation owners and aristocrats who wanted to protect their trade. The American South had missed the industrial revolution because of our awful roads and ultra slow mail delivery system. As a result, they 80% agricultural and had convinced themselves, over the years, that they required slave labor to power their highly profitable cotton and tobacco industry.
Most southerners were, as a result, dirt poor and had been subsistence farmers for generations. They couldn't own slaves, and in many cases, lived in conditions that were almost as bad as the slaves.
This created a very divided South, with most people opposed to the idea of going to war with their own national government. But since they weren't the ones with the money, they didn't get a choice.
As a matter of fact, just after the South seceded, areas WITHIN the South seceded FROM the Confederacy. Such as the Republic of Winston County.
Missouri and Kansas were initially neutral, but were later invaded by both the Union and Confederacy.
What really pushed the matter to war had to do with the addition of states.
This was during a period of time when the US was expanding rapidly.
More and more territories in the west were being cut out into their current shapes and made into full states. In the mid 19th century, we added Texas (who had initially wanted to be a part of Mexico, until the Mexican government abolished slavery). This ruined the balance of power between representatives from Abolition states vs Slave states in the congress and caused greater tension in the slavery debate. Then we added California and Oregon, two abolition states. The problem with this move, however, was the size of the Oregon territory.
We had initially hoped to set Oregon so that it ended on 54 longitude 40 latitude North, where British Columbia is today. We ended up setting it much farther down in order to avoid war with Great Britain, however. This, combined with other disputes over how states would decide over whether or not they'd allow slavery and an increasingly bloody civil war in Kansas (referred to Bleeding Kansas at the time) created the perfect environment for a Civil War.
Oh, also, Britain was caught manufacturing semi submersible gunboats for the confederacy.
Ultimately, Prime Minister Palmerston and Foreign Secretary Russell decided that the war wouldn't have been worth the cost, and that they would lose their American trading partners.
After the war we demanded a settlement for the damage that the British made ships caused during the war, and received 15 million American dollars for the trouble on behalf of Prime Minister William Gladstone, who wanted us to be allies in the future.
Hope that helps.

Actually yeah, that's really interesting! I thought British Columbia was in Canada? That's a pretty far north border for Oregon, it even goes through the state of Washington! And it's well above the 41st parallel.

Anyway, thanks for all the info. Can you cite your sources, reading material etc?