It's a form of media like any other. If you want to write it off just like that, be my guest. I'd argue, however, that people do the same with games. "You play them, so they're all the same" type of thing.
The appeal of Anime
- Thread starter ClockWork
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First things first, I should mention that I got into anime in the mid 90s, heyday of shows such as Sailor Moon and Ranma 1/2.ClockWork said:
At that time, anime was this strange, alien thing that was unlike any of the boring crap on American TV. My teenaged self was enraptured - particularly by shows featuring ass-kicking women doing cool stuff.
For me, anime peaked in 1997-2003, with shows like Revolutionary Girl Utena, Noir, Escaflowne, and a few others.
The last five years or so, I've only found a one or two that I like, and none as much as those shows from the previous decade. Also, many Western shows in the 2000s adopted the best, most interesting parts of anime (such as Joss Whedon, the creators of Power-Puff Girls, and others) thus eliminating the need for importing them directly.
I think it was just something different. As Movie Bob points out, the 90s kind of sucked. Very boring and drab compared to the decades surrounding it. Meanwhile, Japan was hopping with all sorts of cool artistic ideas. Now, ten years later, America, England, Canada, Australia (not to mention Europe) are producing interesting stuff, and Japan is, well, kind of dull. Much of the more recent animes are rehashes of older, better shows.
Also, back in the 90s, only the very best animes got exported to the west (based, of course, on the particular biases of those doing the exportation). Now, pretty much everything comes over, good or not.
So, while I'm still an anime fan, I don't watch much of the new stuff coming out. I stick to my older series and enjoy them, and I watch western shows inspired by anime, and... yeah.
tldr: I think Anime was better when it was new and different. Now that it's been incorporated into western culture, much of what made anime special has been subverted by western authors. Which is a good thing, because it attempts to preserve the best parts of anime while getting rid of the bad bits. Not that everyone agrees on which is which all the time....
Edit: if you actually want to get into anime, try something older. 80s or 90s older. You'll find some of the best stuff then (including fan favorites like Cowboy Bebop).
It's like all things in life, you gotta swim through the shit and the best-sellers to find the good stuff. Try anything that people here have already mentioned: Cowboy Bebob or Samurai Champloo. Personally I'm a fan of Death Note, Gurren Laggan, Claymore, Code Geass and the like. Sure the plots could be deeper and better, but that would be asking too much, after all their creators tend to be more preoccupied with sales than artistic merit or critical reception. But I do not deny any of your points. I'm a literature mayor so I can be preety picky and critical when it comes to the plot and although I do have criticism for all the anime I've mentioned that hasn't stopped me from enjoying them. After reading Don Quijote or George Orwell, watching some mindless action or not-so-deep plots really takes the edge off.
You are wrong, and shall now be corrected, as per your request.FoOd77 said:
Sailor Moon is about a bunch of 15 year old girls. With breasts. Because apparently puberty happens several years earlier in Japan. Although, to be fair, they're like 17 by the time the show ends.
Edit: Ah, ninjaed. With the same info. ^^;;
Card Captor Sakura is the one with flat-chested 12 year olds. Ick. I could never get into that one - it just sort of creeped me out.
True dat!FoOd77 said:
I'll watch an episode of DBZ over ghost in the shell any day, even if I love both.
To me the appeal has always been that there is this level of comedy that most american animation couldn't reach, It's also that they went into subject matters that american T.V. shows (even live action ones) wouldn't dare go into. An example i like to use is Now and then, Here and there
which quote wikipedia
Although it may seem like it at first, this is not a lighthearted series. Much of the series deals with serious moral issues relating to war, the consequences of war, rape, democide, human brutality and the exploitation of children.
and thats from an anime.
It's also worth stating that most main stream anime's do fall under the points that the OP mentioned but there are literally hundreds and almost all of them are genuinely unique, which is why its widely believed that there is an anime for everybody despite your opinions on anime
which quote wikipedia
Although it may seem like it at first, this is not a lighthearted series. Much of the series deals with serious moral issues relating to war, the consequences of war, rape, democide, human brutality and the exploitation of children.
and thats from an anime.
It's also worth stating that most main stream anime's do fall under the points that the OP mentioned but there are literally hundreds and almost all of them are genuinely unique, which is why its widely believed that there is an anime for everybody despite your opinions on anime
I like my anime, though I try to stay away from animes where nothing happen, like Inuyasha, or where fights go on for nine episodes, like DBZ. I honestly prefer light-hearted animes like Lucky Star, or Ouran High School Host Club, though I do revisit my favorite animes like Tenchi and Kenshin. I ramble though, the appeal of anime to me is just the same as the appeal of cartoons to children, I like the aestetics and occasionaly and surprised by how deep the anime can be :3
For me, I don't like most anime usually because popular anime tends to be overly melodramatic and over-the-top with regards to dialog.
I'm also tired of any anime (or show at all, really) that uses the word "forces" or "power" in it.
The only anime that I have found that I like is anime that is based on realism. (totoro is probably the only exception to this)
As dark as this movie is, I like this anime movie because I can take it seriously, and because it is actually emotionally moving. Few cartoons, regardless of whether they're western or eastern can do that to me.
Warning, graphic content:
I'm also tired of any anime (or show at all, really) that uses the word "forces" or "power" in it.
The only anime that I have found that I like is anime that is based on realism. (totoro is probably the only exception to this)
As dark as this movie is, I like this anime movie because I can take it seriously, and because it is actually emotionally moving. Few cartoons, regardless of whether they're western or eastern can do that to me.
Warning, graphic content:
The thing is, when you say something like that it would probably help to say what shows you've seen. There are genres, demographics[footnote]Basically, any anime adapted from a manga will have been printed in a magazine intended for a certain audience. This doesn't necessarily define the show, but you'll see certain genres and tropes in some demographics that you won't see in others (and they will often have their own). There are exceptions, and it isn't all-defining unless it's Shonen Jump anime, in which case you probably really are watching the same thing happen an infinite number of times.[/footnote], subgenres and so on, so the things you're describing may be more common or exclusive to a specific type of anime.FoOd77 said:
For example, a common complaint is that whole "ZOMG THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP! OH SHEESH Y'ALL" thing. This is something that will usually only pop up in Shounen anime. Okay, that's not completely true[footnote]Obviously fantasy shows and magical girl shows will feature that, even if there's a stunning lack of non-romance Shoujo right now.[/footnote] but I'll assume it for the sake of the argument. If you've somehow had the misfortune to only watch this type of show, or only had this type of show recommended to you, you can be forgiven for thinking that represents the entire medium. Okay, that's also not completely true, but it's understandable.
Simply put: Know what you're getting into, and realize there's a variety of anime outside of the most obvious mainstream shows. If those tropes annoy you, consider the possibility that there is anime that *gasp* doesn't feature it.
Let me know if you find out. I have yet to see one that wasn't at best painful to sit through and trash at worst, but I think even getting past the aesthetics might be an insurmountable challenge. The fans certainly don't help.
It seems to have become a lot more mainstream in the past 15 years, so maybe I'm just too old to have caught onto the appeal.
It seems to have become a lot more mainstream in the past 15 years, so maybe I'm just too old to have caught onto the appeal.
What? If you don't like anime, don't watch it. i understand, I personally can't stand american cartoons, with one or two exceptions. I don't understand everyone complaining about how they don't get it, if you don't get it, don't watch.ClockWork said:
OF: Aesthetically, they do not look alike. Check out a clip of Mononoke Hime, then compare to a clip of gundam seed, then compare to a clip of Berserk. Also, why is this relevant? do you watch live action movies, cuz they all look aesthetically similar as well. If you say they don't, anime takes place in all kinds of settings as well, so there you go.
Dialogue complaints: watch better anime, and stop seeing it as a cartoon? I find this argument hard to understand tbh, I just don't see it. The dialogue fits the situations. I suggest code geass and buso renkin. both very good anime, with solid dialogue.
Stories don't make sense? Anime stories are often complex, because of the time involved, but this is usually a positive point. As for the teens with their own flavor of angst, that depends on how you define angst, and your problem with it. All stories are driven by conflict, and usually the negative emotions derived there from, so I don't get it. Is emotional conflict suddenly bad because it comes from a teenager? I mean, V for vendetta, Avatar, Inception, Wheel of Time, and Harry Potter, just to name a few, are all very popular movies or books which are at least partially driven by conflict with negative emotions, very much like anime, and no one complains about their angst? This argument doesn't make sense to me, and I have no idea what to say.
I like anime, and i can consider myself a devout fan of several known and unknown titles,
at the same time , once you reach that stage in which you can easily poke fun and make mockery of the various cliches attributed to the medium (and trust me there are hundreds of "patterns" that seem repeat themselves in all various types of anime) is when you can fully appreciate the several anime that are self-aware of such patterns, and thus exploit it...
so in the end even if many of them might seen badly written and cliched, you learn to appreciate some of the familiarity.
in all honestly even American television has started to emphasize in its very own formulas (example:"the Mulder & Scully" partnership type, there are several police/detective drama that consist one professional/fairly competent (often kiddish) male protagonist with couple bumps in the past and a strong/yet sometimes sentimental female, also with some emotional baggage, ..and noticed how always these to leads seem emotionally/romantically involved, but their professional lives sway em from ever consummate their true feelings)
truth be told in all media you can always find a "pattern" but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the different form of delivery.
also keep in mind, i believe (own personal hypothesis) that in order to "like" a medium in this case a hobby like watching anime, is important to surround yourself with people that also share said common interest, in my own personal psyche i relate the word "anime" with an image of my close circle of friends (since nearly all of em share the same interest) here i'm combining the personal with the collective, of course i'm not saying that just because one of your friends likes it u should like it too, but is fundamental to have micro-society to share the interest with, otherwise is most certainly not as fulfilling of an experience.
at the same time , once you reach that stage in which you can easily poke fun and make mockery of the various cliches attributed to the medium (and trust me there are hundreds of "patterns" that seem repeat themselves in all various types of anime) is when you can fully appreciate the several anime that are self-aware of such patterns, and thus exploit it...
so in the end even if many of them might seen badly written and cliched, you learn to appreciate some of the familiarity.
in all honestly even American television has started to emphasize in its very own formulas (example:"the Mulder & Scully" partnership type, there are several police/detective drama that consist one professional/fairly competent (often kiddish) male protagonist with couple bumps in the past and a strong/yet sometimes sentimental female, also with some emotional baggage, ..and noticed how always these to leads seem emotionally/romantically involved, but their professional lives sway em from ever consummate their true feelings)
truth be told in all media you can always find a "pattern" but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the different form of delivery.
also keep in mind, i believe (own personal hypothesis) that in order to "like" a medium in this case a hobby like watching anime, is important to surround yourself with people that also share said common interest, in my own personal psyche i relate the word "anime" with an image of my close circle of friends (since nearly all of em share the same interest) here i'm combining the personal with the collective, of course i'm not saying that just because one of your friends likes it u should like it too, but is fundamental to have micro-society to share the interest with, otherwise is most certainly not as fulfilling of an experience.
it's a comparatively cheap way to have fantastical plot lines... it lets some truly wacky inner-nerd shine through that you wouldn't see in non-anime stuff
On top of these, I can't recommend Mushishi enough. A collection of stories based in the same universe and around the main character. It is completely absent of angsty teens going to school, overwrought dialogue, and fanservice.mireko said:Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (and Mamoru Oshii's Ghost in the Shell movie, but not the second one).ClockWork said:
Kino no Tabi/Kino's Journey
Haibane Renmei
Paranoia Agent
Serial Experiments Lain (although I should warn you that this one is slightly incomprehensible)
I could also point out that there are loads of non-melodramatic, non-angsty comedy series. I'm assuming that's not the kind of recommendation you're looking for, though, since that list would take forever.
There's an expanded version of that with genres here.GIJames said:ClockWork said:I haven't seen everything on this chart but most of them are solid suggestions. I would recommend starting with Ghost in the Shell; it was the first real anime I watched and I loved it. Haibane Renmei and Serial Experiments Lain are also excellent. Higurashi is one of my personal favorites, but I'd hesitate to recommend it to someone as their first anime series.
Not that I agree with absolutely all the recommendations on it (I really don't).
Otherwise, anime is a medium that has many types of shows/movies. Formulaic crap will keep coming out season after season. You just have to find the good ones, or at least ones you enjoy. The same could also be said for every other type of entertainment.
not necessarily true in anime. Orihime is supposed to be a freshmen: http://www.absoluteanime.com/bleach/orihime%5B3%5D.jpgFoOd77 said:
Kagome from that list is also a freshmen in highschool. Most girls from anime are supposed to be teenagers, but they are drawn like very well endowed adult women. it's kinda wierd.
That was... A very informative and non fanboy-ish reply, thank you.mireko said:
The extent of the anime I've seen is either the stuff I used to watch on Adult Swim, and the stuff I've seen as a result of my brother's puzzling recent obsession with anime, I'll list all the ones I can remember, if I can remember their names, if you'd like.
Ghost in a Shell, Akira, Cowboy Bebop, Berserk, Inuyasha, Dragonball Z/Dragonball, Bleach, some iteration of Gundam, ("Gundam Wing" maybe? Not sure) Blue Gender, Macross something or other, FLCL (I think thats what its called, it was really, really weird.) and thats about all I can think of off the top of my head.
I've seen Akira all the way through, but most of them, excluding Dragonball Z, I've only seen a few episodes of, but wasn't really impressed. Granted all of this I've seen just because I either caught it on TV or came upon a friend watching it and stuck around. Maybe there's some magnificent anime that seems almost as if it was made specifically for me, but I wouldn't know, as I haven't really gone out of my way to find it, you understand.
Also, there's Princess Mononoke, which I adore, one of my favorite animate films, easily. So I don't hate it all.