The Atrocities of Your National Heritage... This is a Fun Thread! :D

[Hazy992]

Provisional IRA (1969?present)
Official IRA (1969?2007)
Irish National Liberation Army (1974?present)
Irish People's Liberation Organisation (1986?1992)
Continuity IRA (1986?present)
Real IRA (1997?present)
Óglaigh na hÉireann (Continuity IRA splinter group) (2006?2009)
Óglaigh na hÉireann (Real IRA splinter group) (2006?present)

..what the hell. I don't even know who my friends were referring to anymore.
EDIT:

]And a great number of people in the southern states wanted to succeed from the Union, but it doesn't mean that the Union let them become their own country.

That's not even remotely comparable. Northern Ireland is a part of the UK already and wants to stay that way, the Confederacy wanted to splinter off from the US. Comparing the two situations is either ignorant of just disingenuous.

And you still havent answered my question. Why do you want NI to be part of Ireland when they don't want to be? I want an actual reason why you think this is best and why NI's wishes don't matter.

I wasn't comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK. I was comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK.

What? I think you've messed that one up mate cause you just contradicted your first sentence with the second

And you still haven't answered my question

lol, my bad.

I meant to type.... "I wasn't comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK. I was comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and Ireland."

Still not comparable as NI is part of the UK. It isn't trying to secede from Ireland.

And you still haven't answered my question

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Like I said to another person, the border is not far from no matter where you are and the republic is 5x bigger than the north. They can go south if they want to be free from the UK.

No that is a fucking terrible argument. I could easily say anyone who wants to be part of the Union can go off an live in Britain but that is hardly a right and fair thing to do now is it? Seriously, god fucking awful logic there.

It really is, the border is not far and if you hate british oppression SO MUCH to the point where you are going to start bombing shit over it then you can just pack up and leave to the much bigger and much more heavily populated part of the island.

It really is god awful logic. Why should people have to move from where they were born just not to be oppressed heavily? answer no they shouldn't and I am appalled you would bring that up. You are now making this about some violent fucking twats and not about who matters with that. It also isn't that much an effort for Unionists to hope on a both to that other island they love so much. It is still fucking wrong of me to say that and have them move from their home.

For one thing, the british government doesn't oppress us. If someone somehow felt they did, do you think that this is a good attitude?

"I'm not happy with the country so I want the whole thing to be merged into another nation even though the majority are against this.

I could move to the nation where I want to live in but I would rather have a massive political upheaval instead just so I don't have to move"

You weren't talking about now you were talking about The Troubles. All main IRA splinters have already ceased armed operations and thrown their guns into a big pit that was cemented over. Right now that that is out of the way we know from that comment and the context of what you were talking you were talking about the IRA in the Troubles as you were talking about stuff by the PIRA and the RIRA among others. Right? Yes I'm certain I am. Now during this time the British Government was oppressive and did such crap as the Birmingham 4 and the Guildford 6.

Right so in this time you think it is fair for someone to uproot their whole life to escape an oppressive state? No if the states is at fault there should be change which there was. Saying some Nationalist at the time should just move to Rep is just as bad as saying all Unionists should go to Britain since they both fucking love their respective areas so much.

In your line of posting I was referring to the present day, despite your assumptions.

Want to talk about the troubles? Fine, I'll type out a bit of history.

IRA Factions terrorise Ireland, next to nothing is achieved.

People peacefully protest and through various means fight for reform. It works.

Taking up arms was/is just a bad course of action.

You weren't because there is no armed IRA in the present day. As I said the IRA splinters got rid of their arms and anyone that wasn't happy formed successor groups that aren't called the IRA but the have the "same" goal.

Well I disagree with you fully. I have no sympathy for the IRA of that era, they were terrorists, plain and simple.

Like I said to another person, the border is not far from no matter where you are and the republic is 5x bigger than the north. They can go south if they want to be free from the UK.

How is that in anyway talking about active organisations or the state of current affairs of this century. So yes saying stuff like "that era" and referring to Bobby Sands does indicate you are not talking about current affairs. I never once said I wanted to talk about the Troubles. I am talking about your faulty logic that people should have to move just because they disagree with the current establishment.

That is not history by any stretch that is a short biased account. No more right than me saying

British Government continues racial oppression through sectarian means,
Rights are oppressed local elections rigged along with heavy handed "riot" control tactics, nothing is achieved.
People stop being idiots and talk.

That is hardly any less biased than yours.

Now if we can drop the superfluous crap here and talk about you said.

You said people should leave the North and to go the Republic. This was directed at extremists and other Nationalists and this is an awful attitude to have. This is no better than some idiot saying the Proddies should all fuck off to England. The only difference is you said it with less vulgar language. If people do not like their current government they should protest, vote and use other proper channels for change but not up and move country.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

All main IRA splinters have already ceased armed operations and thrown their guns into a big pit that was cemented over.

This deserves another post. Don't be so naive, of course they didn't get rid of all their guns, there are bound to be a stockpile or 2 set aside "just in case".

They won't leave themselves 100% defenseless.

Don't be naive yourself a couple of zealots with guns =/= the group as a whole. You talk as someone who is unwilling to trust "the other side". You can't have peace talks without a bit of trust something you seem sorely lack.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Provisional IRA (1969?present)
Official IRA (1969?2007)
Irish National Liberation Army (1974?present)
Irish People's Liberation Organisation (1986?1992)
Continuity IRA (1986?present)
Real IRA (1997?present)
Óglaigh na hÉireann (Continuity IRA splinter group) (2006?2009)
Óglaigh na hÉireann (Real IRA splinter group) (2006?present)

..what the hell. I don't even know who my friends were referring to anymore.
EDIT:

]And a great number of people in the southern states wanted to succeed from the Union, but it doesn't mean that the Union let them become their own country.

That's not even remotely comparable. Northern Ireland is a part of the UK already and wants to stay that way, the Confederacy wanted to splinter off from the US. Comparing the two situations is either ignorant of just disingenuous.

And you still havent answered my question. Why do you want NI to be part of Ireland when they don't want to be? I want an actual reason why you think this is best and why NI's wishes don't matter.

I wasn't comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK. I was comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK.

What? I think you've messed that one up mate cause you just contradicted your first sentence with the second

And you still haven't answered my question

lol, my bad.

I meant to type.... "I wasn't comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK. I was comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and Ireland."

Still not comparable as NI is part of the UK. It isn't trying to secede from Ireland.

And you still haven't answered my question

It is comparable and it answers your question, the Union didn't want the Confederacy to be separate from them, the Union used violence to achieve this, used extreme measures [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March], and forced the Confederacy to join them knowing full well that a great number of people in the southern states did not want to be part of the Union.

You mentioned Bobby Sands, well just understand this. You do not get involved with a terrorist organisation without cracking a few skulls. He was suspected of an awful lot, but never convicted because of lack of evidence (no DNA stuff back in those days.) Eventually he was caught with a gun that had been used in a shooting against police, and I think there were a few other charges when they got the ball rolling. He was caught with several handguns, and involved in a few shootings, those are not the actions of an innocent man.

So contrary to what was said about him earlier, there doesn't seem to be any proof that he killed anybody.

 

[Hazy992]

And you still haven't answered my question

Sure sounds like R&P in here...

Give it a few more laps around the Debate-Ring. After that it might be time to pull over for a pit stop.

I'm not giving up, I'm gonna keep pressing until he answers I really want to know why a United Ireland is best for NI if you guys don't even want it

 

[gim73]

America!

We profited off of Europe's world war, then about 10 years later, we crashed the economy!

Then we got out of debt by profiting off of Europe's second world war, then about 70 years later, crashed the economy again!

Also, Scientology. Didn't those guys try to get into Europe?

Wow, somebody has an inflated view of americas net worth on the entire world! The world economy was kinda wonky even before our stock market crash. Many countries had worthless money. The league of nations had no real power. Socialist countries were looked up to because they could effect change and get people back on their feet.

And that second line is just pure BS. We spent massive amounts of money getting our machines of war ready, sending aid and troops to Europe, and fighting OUR side of the war in the Pacific. Our only profit was becoming a world leader, going away from isolationist policies, and becoming a target for the soviets in a cold war that led to the rapid development of weapons, technology and ideas that eventually made the modern world. Oh, and again the world economy isn't dependent on our will. If our country collapsed into the Conservative states of America tomorrow, most of the world would go on just fine. Japan and South Korea might get overrun, but most people would be just fine. Oh yeah, except for Israel being attacked from all sides and the rain of nuclear missiles hitting all the middle east cities, but other than that, everything would be fine.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

All main IRA splinters have already ceased armed operations and thrown their guns into a big pit that was cemented over.

This deserves another post. Don't be so naive, of course they didn't get rid of all their guns, there are bound to be a stockpile or 2 set aside "just in case".

They won't leave themselves 100% defenseless.

Don't be naive yourself a couple of zealots with guns =/= the group as a whole. You talk as someone who is unwilling to trust "the other side". You can't have peace talks without a bit of trust something you seem sorely lack.

How is that naive?? You really expect terrorist organisations to give up all their weapons?

You're just going to take their word for it? Riiight.

It is naive because you seem to think a couple of boogie men thugs make a terrorist organisation funnily enough they don't. A couple of renegade thugs that aren't willing to follow what their head office says when they declare a ceasefire are mavericks and not part of that organisation. You talk like someone who wants to keep a strong(height of the troubles) British army presence in NI. That is not progress.

Anyway this is over now and does not need to go further.

 

[DirtyJunkieScum]

Like I said to another person, the border is not far from no matter where you are and the republic is 5x bigger than the north. They can go south if they want to be free from the UK.

No that is a fucking terrible argument. I could easily say anyone who wants to be part of the Union can go off an live in Britain but that is hardly a right and fair thing to do now is it? Seriously, god fucking awful logic there.

Maybe we could just give all the green bits back to Eire, then both of those arguments would be a lot more valid.

I don't see how breaking up Counties into smaller pieces is really going to help anything at all.

While a referendum might look a bit different than that, another vote on staying in the UK or rejoining Eire should get some people to shut the fuck up. Voted for by a current majority should reflect current divisions better than the 1922 division. Or maybe we'll get a protestant minority in the newly Irish parts bombing Dublin (again) because they want to be part of the UK.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Like I said to another person, the border is not far from no matter where you are and the republic is 5x bigger than the north. They can go south if they want to be free from the UK.

No that is a fucking terrible argument. I could easily say anyone who wants to be part of the Union can go off an live in Britain but that is hardly a right and fair thing to do now is it? Seriously, god fucking awful logic there.

Maybe we could just give all the green bits back to Eire, then both of those arguments would be a lot more valid.

I don't see how breaking up Counties into smaller pieces is really going to help anything at all.

While a referendum might look a bit different than that, another vote on staying in the UK or rejoining Eire should get some people to shut the fuck up. Voted for by a current majority should reflect current divisions better than the 1922 division. Or maybe we'll get a protestant minority in the newly Irish parts bombing Dublin (again) because they want to be part of the UK.

If people want to vote on it that is fine and how it should be done the out come of which I have no influence as I am not a citizen of NI. If a majority wish to become part of a "united" Ireland again that is all well and good if not we continue as we are.

 

[Hazy992]

Provisional IRA (1969?present)
Official IRA (1969?2007)
Irish National Liberation Army (1974?present)
Irish People's Liberation Organisation (1986?1992)
Continuity IRA (1986?present)
Real IRA (1997?present)
Óglaigh na hÉireann (Continuity IRA splinter group) (2006?2009)
Óglaigh na hÉireann (Real IRA splinter group) (2006?present)

..what the hell. I don't even know who my friends were referring to anymore.
EDIT:

]And a great number of people in the southern states wanted to succeed from the Union, but it doesn't mean that the Union let them become their own country.

That's not even remotely comparable. Northern Ireland is a part of the UK already and wants to stay that way, the Confederacy wanted to splinter off from the US. Comparing the two situations is either ignorant of just disingenuous.

And you still havent answered my question. Why do you want NI to be part of Ireland when they don't want to be? I want an actual reason why you think this is best and why NI's wishes don't matter.

I wasn't comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK. I was comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK.

What? I think you've messed that one up mate cause you just contradicted your first sentence with the second

And you still haven't answered my question

lol, my bad.

I meant to type.... "I wasn't comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK. I was comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and Ireland."

Still not comparable as NI is part of the UK. It isn't trying to secede from Ireland.

And you still haven't answered my question

It is comparable and it answers your question, the Union didn't want the Confederacy to be separate from them, the Union used violence to achieve this, used extreme measures [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March], and forced the Confederacy to join them knowing full well that a great number of people in the southern states did not want to be part of the Union

again no it's not. The only way this would be comparable was if NI seceded from Ireland. This obviously didnt happen so its not comparable.

Ignore this really arbitrary point though and answer my actual question; why is a United Ireland the best solution when the people of NI want to remain part of the UK?

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

All main IRA splinters have already ceased armed operations and thrown their guns into a big pit that was cemented over.

This deserves another post. Don't be so naive, of course they didn't get rid of all their guns, there are bound to be a stockpile or 2 set aside "just in case".

They won't leave themselves 100% defenseless.

Don't be naive yourself a couple of zealots with guns =/= the group as a whole. You talk as someone who is unwilling to trust "the other side". You can't have peace talks without a bit of trust something you seem sorely lack.

How is that naive?? You really expect terrorist organisations to give up all their weapons?

You're just going to take their word for it? Riiight.

It is naive because you seem to think a couple of boogie men thugs make a terrorist organisation funnily enough they don't. A couple of renegade thugs that aren't willing to follow what their head office says when they declare a ceasefire are mavericks and not part of that organisation. You talk like someone who wants to keep a strong(height of the troubles) British army presence in NI. That is not progress.

I don't want a strong army presence but I really doubt that they would get rid of them all. I know you keep bringing it back to "yeah, but it's not the majority" but you don't know that.

The only thing we have to go on is their word and I don't think we can just take it at face value. Before you jump on the whole "you want the army back" shit, I reckon the police do a good enough job and that we don't need the army on the streets or anything. If it ever did escalate to those levels again it wouldn't take much to get the troops back again anyway but I doubt we will reach the heights of the troubles again.

Well you can't have progress or peace without giving their word a chance and given how the Queen's visit went I would say some slow progress has been made by taking this at face value. I also have to say you do not know it is the majority either they have an idea of how much was smuggled in and they know how much was cemented into that pit. I agree that thinking there aren't a few with weapons around is ludicrous but I think it is counter productive to not give the majority group a try with their end of their armed campaign.

 

[DirtyJunkieScum]

If people want to vote on it that is fine and how it should be done the out come of which I have no influence as I am not a citizen of NI. If a majority wish to become part of a "united" Ireland again that is all well and good if not we continue as we are.

That was the general idea, I just assumed people would realise that, green bits being republican areas and red being unionist. If people maintained their voting habits and we kept it along the divisions of voting areas for the NI assembly then it would be comparatively simple...except for that bit of Belfast. Repartition along the green line and everyone is happy and has cake and ice cream and no one ever brutally murders anyone again for the crime of not being from the right community and anyone complains can simply be told STFU, majority rules, we voted for this shit last Thursday.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Provisional IRA (1969?present)
Official IRA (1969?2007)
Irish National Liberation Army (1974?present)
Irish People's Liberation Organisation (1986?1992)
Continuity IRA (1986?present)
Real IRA (1997?present)
Óglaigh na hÉireann (Continuity IRA splinter group) (2006?2009)
Óglaigh na hÉireann (Real IRA splinter group) (2006?present)

..what the hell. I don't even know who my friends were referring to anymore.
EDIT:

]And a great number of people in the southern states wanted to succeed from the Union, but it doesn't mean that the Union let them become their own country.

That's not even remotely comparable. Northern Ireland is a part of the UK already and wants to stay that way, the Confederacy wanted to splinter off from the US. Comparing the two situations is either ignorant of just disingenuous.

And you still havent answered my question. Why do you want NI to be part of Ireland when they don't want to be? I want an actual reason why you think this is best and why NI's wishes don't matter.

I wasn't comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK. I was comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK.

What? I think you've messed that one up mate cause you just contradicted your first sentence with the second

And you still haven't answered my question

lol, my bad.

I meant to type.... "I wasn't comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK. I was comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and Ireland."

Still not comparable as NI is part of the UK. It isn't trying to secede from Ireland.

And you still haven't answered my question

It is comparable and it answers your question, the Union didn't want the Confederacy to be separate from them, the Union used violence to achieve this, used extreme measures [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March], and forced the Confederacy to join them knowing full well that a great number of people in the southern states did not want to be part of the Union

again no it's not. The only way this would be comparable was if NI seceded from Ireland. This obviously didnt happen so its not comparable.

Ignore this really arbitrary point though and answer my actual question; why is a United Ireland the best solution when the people of NI want to remain part of the UK?

I don't know if it is best for the people of NI, just that I compare it to US history in that even though getting rid of slavery wasn't in the best economic interest of the Southern states, the Union still fought for the idea of the United States.

I don't want a strong army presence but I really doubt that they would get rid of them all. I know you keep bringing it back to "yeah, but it's not the majority" but you don't know that.

The only thing we have to go on is their word and I don't think we can just take it at face value. Before you jump on the whole "you want the army back" shit, I reckon the police do a good enough job and that we don't need the army on the streets or anything. If it ever did escalate to those levels again it wouldn't take much to get the troops back again anyway but I doubt we will reach the heights of the troubles again.

So he is wrong to assume that their actions of a violent few are not representative of the majority, but you somehow know more than him? What exactly do you know that Glademaster doesn't?

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

You danced around Hazy's question for ages then gave a really pithy answer at the end.

I have three people asking me questions, forgive me for taking my time to answer all of you. As for my answer, it stands for itself.

 

[Hazy992]

Provisional IRA (1969?present)
Official IRA (1969?2007)
Irish National Liberation Army (1974?present)
Irish People's Liberation Organisation (1986?1992)
Continuity IRA (1986?present)
Real IRA (1997?present)
Óglaigh na hÉireann (Continuity IRA splinter group) (2006?2009)
Óglaigh na hÉireann (Real IRA splinter group) (2006?present)

..what the hell. I don't even know who my friends were referring to anymore.
EDIT:

]And a great number of people in the southern states wanted to succeed from the Union, but it doesn't mean that the Union let them become their own country.

That's not even remotely comparable. Northern Ireland is a part of the UK already and wants to stay that way, the Confederacy wanted to splinter off from the US. Comparing the two situations is either ignorant of just disingenuous.

And you still havent answered my question. Why do you want NI to be part of Ireland when they don't want to be? I want an actual reason why you think this is best and why NI's wishes don't matter.

I wasn't comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK. I was comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK.

What? I think you've messed that one up mate cause you just contradicted your first sentence with the second

And you still haven't answered my question

lol, my bad.

I meant to type.... "I wasn't comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and the UK. I was comparing the Confederacy and the Union to NI and Ireland."

Still not comparable as NI is part of the UK. It isn't trying to secede from Ireland.

And you still haven't answered my question

It is comparable and it answers your question, the Union didn't want the Confederacy to be separate from them, the Union used violence to achieve this, used extreme measures [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March], and forced the Confederacy to join them knowing full well that a great number of people in the southern states did not want to be part of the Union

again no it's not. The only way this would be comparable was if NI seceded from Ireland. This obviously didnt happen so its not comparable.

Ignore this really arbitrary point though and answer my actual question; why is a United Ireland the best solution when the people of NI want to remain part of the UK?

I don't know if it is best for the people of NI, just that I compare it to US history in that even though getting rid of slavery wasn't in the best economic interest of the Southern states, the Union still fought for the idea of the United States

If it's not the best solution and if the people of NI don't want it why do you? You still haven't given a reason