Well...for looking at wide trends, not getting discussions going, but certainly not for evaluating individual movies, yeah.NihilSinLulz said:
The Bechdel Test and "Y:The Last Man"
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The problem I see when it used to evaluate trends is that it ignores the very important factor of genre. Film that focus on or a strong theme of relationships (this would include romance, certain types of drama, film noir, and a number of existential films) are going to have women talking about men and men talking about women. Story framing and running time make it hard for such pieces to pass the Bechdel Test unless the director is especially gifted.thaluikhain said:
As I mentioned, its going for getting discussions going but misleading when used as a evaluative tool.
I don't see that as a problem, myself.NihilSinLulz said:
OTOH, that's contrasted with an implied reversed gender one. You really need that to get the most out of it, IMHO.
Sorry, I'm not sure I understood your reply.thaluikhain said:
I admit, my problem with the Test is how its used by some Hacktivists rather than with the test itself. As I mentioned, it does create an interesting vehicle for discussion.
Well, certain genres will pass or fail more than others, but the test wasn't (I believe) just to show how few movies pass, it's about how few movies aren't male dominated, compared to the ones that are.NihilSinLulz said:
For that, you'd need to run the test again, but swap the genders around (or something along those lines).
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/8695-Blecch-Dull-Tests
The test is ridiculous, it doesn't say anything about the quality or content of a film. It says a little more about those who make and finance films, but even then, not much.
Is Shawshank Redemption feminist friendly? According to the test it's not - it almost doesn't have a single woman in it, and the woman who is in it is a plot device only. However, it's not feminist unfriendly, it just so happens to be a film about a male prison. Women don't feature at all, by virtue of the setting.
The test is interesting for as far as you want to read into the dynamics. Should there be more films with female leads? Yes, probably. However, that doesn't write off the films that currently exist.
The test is ridiculous, it doesn't say anything about the quality or content of a film. It says a little more about those who make and finance films, but even then, not much.
Is Shawshank Redemption feminist friendly? According to the test it's not - it almost doesn't have a single woman in it, and the woman who is in it is a plot device only. However, it's not feminist unfriendly, it just so happens to be a film about a male prison. Women don't feature at all, by virtue of the setting.
The test is interesting for as far as you want to read into the dynamics. Should there be more films with female leads? Yes, probably. However, that doesn't write off the films that currently exist.
Or especially horrible at their job, injecting unimportant scenes into a movie for no good reason. There needs to be a good reason for a scene or conversation to exist in a movie. Run time is extremely limited and if a scene is pointless it should be cut. Shitty sitcoms full of time wasting filler are far more likely to pass the test than a well made film. In fact, the genre that passes the test most often is probably lesbian porn. 2 women definitely not talking about men.NihilSinLulz said:
Excepting that the test is not about whether a film is feminist friendly or not. That has nothing to do with the test at all.Verlander said:
Did you not get the point that the story literally shows how bad the "patriarchy" really is (and then how dangerous extreme feminism can be)? When all males die, except Yorrick and Ampersand, almost all of the world leaders, religious leaders, pilots, standing armies, politicians, infrastructure/ maintenance workers are just gone. The world stops for awhile while the survivors pick up the pieces.TheIronRuler said:
The test has nothing to do with anything. It's the result of a cartoon strip that's used as an arbitrary measure of a film. It tells you precisely nothing about the film, bar a specific type of content that's missing. There are large parts of "What to expect when you're expecting" that fails the test, because despite there being a large female cast, it's nearly all women talking to their partners, parents or doctors. What does the test tell you about that film? Sweet f/a.thaluikhain said:
Again, it's not supposed to say anything about "a" film, it's used to point out a broad trend.Verlander said:
It would become you to learn about the Bechdel test, about the intention behind it, before you complain about its ridiculousness.Verlander said:
Nobody would fault a movie playing in a men's prison for the lack of two female characters talking about something other than a man.
However, if your movie has a couple of women, who talk about nothing else, then yes the Bechdel test is an indicator (and only that) that maybe this movie has a problem with its female characters having no real agency of their own (other than related to men).
...As well as...what. It's a binary measure. The question is "does it pass" and the answer is either "yes" or "no".
Not even that, really. The Bechdel Test is not designed so much for examination of singular films as it is commentary with regards to trends across media. It's not hard to argue that Mulan is one of the more feminist pieces of Disney's canon, but despite this it actually fails the Bechdel Test. And this really is not a mark against the movie nor its treatment of women. A bunch of workaholic (lady) US Marshals who spend a film talking about an escaped (male) convict would fail the Bechdel test and that certainly isn't a mark against their agency. Conversely, a movie depicting a bunch of 'ideal' 50s housewives could pass the test so long as there was a conversation about laundry in there. The Bechdel Test isn't so much a comment on agency as it is the comparative rarity of female characters across a variety of works.CloudAtlas said:
I know more than enough about the test, thank you very much. Perhaps you could heed your own advice, and learn about it yourself? Even Alison Bechdel has admitted that it's a poor judge of a film.CloudAtlas said:
It doesn't judge anything but an arbitrary bit of plot. The portrayal of women in film is important, but the bechdel test teaches us nothing about the representation of the characters.
A flaw in the criteria for the bechdel test is that stories are not often created as "every character has a story and fleshed out personality" but rather "I have a central story to tell and only the parts that contribute to that get in." It mistakes a lack of agency for what is more accurately a lack of screen time, and can easily be flunked due to a desire to keep superfluous conversation down. If the movie is about Hal Jordan growing into Green Lantern, then most cast will be there to aid that story, be it the girlfriend, the best friend, the brother's family, the trainer, the rival, the bosses, or the exposition giver.
For better or worse, y the Last Man is yorrick's story, not the story of the world and how it dealt with the gendercide (even though it was the most interesting part, but what can you do) so characters were placed as per what they wanted Yorrick to go through: who's going to try and kill him, who's going the try and screw him, with parts unrelated to Yorrick's journey not covered in a story that did cover years. I won't say it was the best direction, but it was the direction they took.
For better or worse, y the Last Man is yorrick's story, not the story of the world and how it dealt with the gendercide (even though it was the most interesting part, but what can you do) so characters were placed as per what they wanted Yorrick to go through: who's going to try and kill him, who's going the try and screw him, with parts unrelated to Yorrick's journey not covered in a story that did cover years. I won't say it was the best direction, but it was the direction they took.
Shawshank Redemption could have taken place in a female prison with only very minor tweaks to the story. Such a film would pass the Bechdel test with flying colors. So we would expect half of all prison films to pass the Bechdel test.Verlander said:
Do half of all prison films pass the Bechdel test? If not, why not?
Do none of those women have female doctors? Do none of them ever talk to just their mother? 'Cause that frankly seems bizarre.Verlander said:
Well, the OP apparently missed them enough to make a thread about it, so...yes?Johnny Novgorod said: