The beginning of the end of drug threads and the F.D.A. while I dream of a more reasoned world...

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Captain Blackout

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The FDA in the U.S. have lost their minds. They can't tell the difference between smoked tobacco and vaporized tobacco, nor do they really know how to handle the many food issues.

The Escapist has wonderful threads on drug use, just bring your flame strategy. I personally recommend the simplest, that being the Taoist stance of action through non-action.

Diet in some countries has proven interesting from a purely health standpoint. I don't want to pick on the U.S. again so I'll point at the Japanese practice of eating significant amounts of raw mercury laden fish.

Many classification systems exist but do not work well for all substances. Others are highly complicated and don't provide a simple broad view.

I think I have a way to encapsulate many of the underlying issues across the board. The following ranking system gives us a handle on the most basic things to consider in everything we take in. It can also be used as a tool to decide which substances should be regulated in some way, and which should be left alone. It might even end a few arguments regarding said regulations that happen here. I won't be holding my breath on that last one at all, but to those who hate drug threads wouldn't it be nice to simply say to yourself, "I know what the ratings are for me, the hell with all of you and your silly arguments. I'll ignore those threads and enjoy myself elsewhere."

I considered the typical usage for a given substance for an actual user. Not many will give themselves lethal doses of sodium thiopental but in the cases where it is used one would consider the effects on the patient or inmate.

The categories I see as most needed are:
Health benefit/Detriment (HBD) - A basic overview of whether or not the substance will sustain you or increase your health, or cause harm or kill you. At 0 the substance is not needed at all and provides no benefit, but will never harm you. I suppose nitrogen might be an example. I saw water at optimal intake as a 10. Obviously possibly everything with too high of an intake is lethal, and I used the highest possible intake for water to show how that can change the numbers. Cocaine would have a negative number between 0 and -10. Some wines would have positive numbers, although possibly less than 1 to account for a lethality rating over 1.

The next three all range from 1 to 10 inclusively, with an exception listed under lethality rating.

Lethality rating (LR) - Many substances are eventually or even instantly lethal at rather low doses. At rating of 1 means the substance poses no harm at normal intake levels. A 5 means it will kill you eventually, but the bus with your name on it tomorrow will get you sooner. A 10 means have fun, please write me a letter in about 30 seconds when you get where you're going. Over a ten indicates that you took others with you, or at least killed others while being lucky enough to be alive yourself.

Necessity/Physical addictivity (NP)
The more you need a substance to survive, the higher this number. The stronger the physical addiction the substance creates the higher the number.

Psychological addictivity (PP)
This is almost purely subjective, although we can talk about the average user or the mean rating of a substance. A rating of 1 is the lowest, while a number of people I've loved to have as friends would have to put a 10 for sex.

Composite Rating
By multiplying all the numbers together you can get a quick feel for how different substances compare to each other. Obviously this means you have to be careful in how you assign the HBD. From -1 to 1 gets interesting, which is also useful for scaling back the effects of the other numbers if that's warranted. A 0 cancels out the effects of everything else. If a substance has an LR over 1 you should not assign an HBD of 0.

I listed some examples here. Obviously not everyone is going to agree with some of my ratings but I suspect I'm at least in the ballpark for most here.
*Some of them I gave ranges or various values. While one guy can use meth for months and do fine, sometimes the next guy keels over or drives into a bus. Fat is a needed macro-nutrient but it's clear we have no clue in many cultures how to handle our fat.

Name HBD LR NP PP Composite Rating
Water 10 1 10 2 200
Water (overuse) -10 10 1 1 -100
Marijuana -0.5 1 2 6 -4
Smoked Tobacco -5 5 10 10 -2500
LSD -2 3/10/100* 2 4 -12/-160/-1600
Meth -7 6/10/100 10 10 -4200/-7000/-70000
Fat -0.5/0.5 1 10 4 -20/20
Protein 10 1 10 2 200

I'm curious if others see value in this. More importantly, if enough people do, how quickly do you think we can enlist 4chan in helping to force the FDA in the U.S. to actually think while at work, whether or not I can get anyone to actually use this system?

EDIT: How the hell do I force spaces so the chart is more readable?
 

AvsJoe

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This certainly looks like a good system, giving a nice round easily-readable number and whatnot, but this needs a hell of a lot of refining. You're on to something though, good work.
 

CIA

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Write it in a table in word and then Copy/paste.

I like the system so far, but I need to see the chart more clearly to get a better idea.
 

Captain Blackout

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CIA said:
Write it in a table in word and then Copy/paste.

I like the system so far, but I need to see the chart more clearly to get a better idea.
Thanks. I'll use that next time. I might even fix this chart.
 

Kiutu

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In stupid people terms please? (Take it as a compliment since I just dont understand what you said since it seems too smart)
 

The_ModeRazor

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I... really don't understand all that.
But I guess it's about drugs, and I'm against them. Drowning your sorrow by getting high isn't solving anyhing.
 

CuddlyCombine

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Name
HBD
LR
NP
PP
Composite Rating


Water
10
1
10
2
200


Water (overuse)
-10
10
1
1
-100


Weed
-0.5
1
2
6
-4


Tobacco (smoked)
-5
5
10
10
-2500


LSD
-2
3/10/100*
2
4
-12/-160/-1600


Meth
-7
6/10/100
10
10
-4200/-7000/-70000


Fat
-0.5/0.5
1
10
4
-20/20


Protein
10
1
10
2
200



There's the table format you're looking for. Just quote my post if you want to see the actual code (so that you can copy-paste it). For future reference, you can make basic HTML tables by just using brackets (spaces omitted, of course).
 

Captain Blackout

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Kiutu said:
In stupid people terms please? (Take it as a compliment since I just dont understand what you said since it seems too smart)
The_ModeRazor said:
I... really don't understand all that.
But I guess it's about drugs, and I'm against them. Drowning your sorrow by getting high isn't solving anyhing.
It's about classifying everything we might intake (and some things we might not) using a few widely usable criteria and a somewhat arbitrary but informative derived criteria. The last column in the chart was supposed to be self evident but my chart failed to look nice (My bad) so don't feel stupid for not seeing the basic picture. The F.D.A. loves to argue about healthy food ingredients and half the time have no clear basis for their standards. This concept provides a broad basis for rational decisions regarding regulation. We don't regulate water intake legally, we should do something minor about the fat problem in America, and a system that allows tobacco and alcohol but not marijuana is clearly retarded based on this chart.

And no, this wasn't just about drugs. And no, I don't "drown" my sorrows. I often use for spiritual reasons. Unless you want much flaming, just accept that you don't use and I have good reasons for my usage and we're both fine with that.
 

Captain Blackout

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CuddlyCombine said:
Name
HBD
LR
NP
PP
Composite Rating


Water
10
1
10
2
200


Water (overuse)
-10
10
1
1
-100


Weed
-0.5
1
2
6
-4


Tobacco (smoked)
-5
5
10
10
-2500


LSD
-2
3/10/100*
2
4
-12/-160/-1600


Meth
-7
6/10/100
10
10
-4200/-7000/-70000


Fat
-0.5/0.5
1
10
4
-20/20


Protein
10
1
10
2
200



There's the table format you're looking for. Just quote my post if you want to see the actual code (so that you can copy-paste it). For future reference, you can make basic HTML tables by just using brackets (spaces omitted, of course).
You rock!
 

Sevanum10

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Sep 9, 2009
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While i disagree with some of your given numbers, your process seems very sound, and using highly provable data to produce a generalized rating for substances would maybe, JUST MAYBE bring some rationality to the debate about drugs in the country.

Good idea sir.
 

Mopbucket

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Aug 4, 2009
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You want 4chan to reform the FDA to enforce your completely arbitrary (and incorrect) ratings system? I'm all for decriminalization/legalization of drugs but this seems pretty out there.
 

CuddlyCombine

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Captain Blackout said:
You rock!
Haha, thanks!

In reply to the original post; the only problem I see is that all the values you specified are objective. Getting people to agree on it and attach scientific, measurable worth to it seems like a gargantuan task.
 

Seanchaidh

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The FDA, instead of putting numbers next to things in order to classify what substances need for paternalistic reasons to be outlawed, should confine themselves to evaluating contamination and production processes, warning labels and other publishing of accurate information so that people can make informed choices rather than have their choices made for them. They do not need some pseudo-scientific classification system in order to justify their decisions. For sure they don't need things simplified into one 'composite rating.'

I mean, where's taste and pure awesome on that table? They aren't, nor should they be, but those are both valuable factors in a person's decision. You can't replicate the weighing of those factors in some sterile government administration. You can however leave people to make informed choices for themselves (or uninformed if they don't want the input) because people tend to be better judges of what is best for them than disinterested committees with no genuine stake in the issue. Personal decisions are one place where it is preferable to include the bias of the participant.
 

Captain Blackout

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CuddlyCombine said:
Captain Blackout said:
You rock!
Haha, thanks!

In reply to the original post; the only problem I see is that all the values you specified are objective. Getting people to agree on it and attach scientific, measurable worth to it seems like a gargantuan task.
Not quite. Lethality is easily determined given the scale I set out with the exception of values over 10. The ones I posted were completely arbitrary just to show the effect on the system of using the exception I mentioned way above. Physical addiction/necessity will be easy for many substances, although not all. As I said above psychological dependence is tricky as hell and subjective but invaluable for a full view. However we all know ourselves if we pay attention and we can assign our own individual values based our own proclivities.

That leaves HBD. This one is objective but arguments for particular values can be made both before and after other values are assigned, especially since it ranges from positive to negative in order to produce a more meaningful composite rating. That's the biggest nightmare.

Obviously in many systems simplicity can hide complexity and this system clearly does in value assignment. Still, would you rather have the FDA have rational arguments over complex assignments to simple values rather than the crapola they pull now?

Finally, the openness of the system leaves the option of values for adults vs. children, values for under-, regular and over-use, values for individuals with uncommon physiologies and values based on accumulated data like averages or means. Yes, there is complexity but that complexity brings with it the benefit of openness in the level of tailoring, a worth-while benefit. An individual can make rational choices based on their own experiences and knowledge of themselves and the substances they are considering long before they ever read the FDA's or DEA's value assignments. The beauty of adaptable simplicity!
 

Achiltibuie

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Sep 9, 2009
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Wasn't there some law brought in by some shady beings in your govt. saying that the FDA now have to prove something is bad for you before they ban it or rather disallow it for human consumption.

Sponsored by xxxx drug company ofc.

P.S. They consider fat BAD for you???? o_O
 

Mopbucket

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Aug 4, 2009
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Health benefit/detriment has problems because you can't really rate if something is "healthy". Many drugs cure sick people but kill healthy people. Besides, how could you quantify health anyway? Some drugs treat certain symptoms but cause painful or embarassing side effects, some might add years to a patients life but make them utterly miserable.

Lethality rating has flaws too. The LD50 rating that most clinicians use is better anyway, but rating drugs on lethality in general is tricky waters. Is something less lethal if it has an antidote? What if it only kills people with certain conditions? You have LSD in your chart, it's nigh impossible to die of overdose, but stories abound of idiots thinking they can fly jumping off buildings.

Necessity/addictivity is probably even harder. Is insulin intake necessary for you? Is it necessary for a diabetic? Does that make insulin addictive or no?

I'm sorry, but everyone is different, and I don't think you can just put it in a chart whether a drug is good or bad. Besides, some of the stuff you mention are scheduled drugs, and aren't even regulated by the FDA at all, they are just banned and under the jurisdiction of the DEA. I don't think it would work.
 

Captain Blackout

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Seanchaidh said:
The FDA, instead of putting numbers next to things in order to classify what substances need for paternalistic reasons to be outlawed, should confine themselves to evaluating contamination and production processes, warning labels and other publishing of accurate information so that people can make informed choices rather than have their choices made for them. They do not need some pseudo-scientific classification system in order to justify their decisions. For sure they don't need things simplified into one 'composite rating.'

I mean, where's taste and pure awesome on that table? They aren't, nor should they be, but those are both valuable factors in a person's decision. You can't replicate the weighing of those factors in some sterile government administration. You can however leave people to make informed choices for themselves (or uninformed if they don't want the input) because people tend to be better judges of what is best for them than disinterested committees with no genuine stake in the issue. Personal decisions are one place where it is preferable to include the bias of the participant.
Are you trolling me on purpose? Two of your criteria are purely tangential at best to what I'm after, I listed multiple examples in the opening to the OP to show use far beyond the FDA (they are an example and my personal ***** for this post, given that they clearly want more control than they deserve but won't use it competently), and there are damn good reasons medicines aren't all openly available.

You seem to have a talent for reading my posts, commenting, while ignoring the parts you want to skirt around.


Mopbucket said:
You want 4chan to reform the FDA to enforce your completely arbitrary (and incorrect) ratings system? I'm all for decriminalization/legalization of drugs but this seems pretty out there.
No, I want 4chan to shut down the FDA even if only temporarily if they continue to refuse to try and do their job well at all. It's never going to happen but since posts like this can often use a good question for starting the discussion that was my question. Ok, it was more vicious than good but as a practicing pirate I stand by it.

You may think my proposal is completely arbitrary and incorrect, but the majority of comments so far seem rather positive.

On reading your next comment, I would suggest you read one of my replies. This will never be perfectly precise, but that doesn't change it's usefulness both in the broad application and for individuals. Also, this isn't solely aimed at the FDA. I used to work with material data safety sheets and those could use some standardization and easier reading. This was meant to be simplified in order to use with existing classification systems (or replace when absolutely needed).
 

oppp7

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The system seems good, and I agree with you on the health issues. We let them put too many untested chemicals into... everything. Synergistic effects and all of that.
 

CuddlyCombine

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Captain Blackout said:
Not quite. Lethality is easily determined given the scale I set out with the exception of values over 10. The ones I posted were completely arbitrary just to show the effect on the system of using the exception I mentioned way above. Physical addiction/necessity will be easy for many substances, although not all. As I said above psychological dependence is tricky as hell and subjective but invaluable for a full view. However we all know ourselves if we pay attention and we can assign our own individual values based our own proclivities.
There are so many open factors, though. Tobacco may addict a consumer in one use, or it may take twenty. It could catalyze a harmful reaction and kill them in ten minutes, or never at all. The problem with health ratings and that sort are that it's hard to assign a number to a situation with so many variables.

Of course, that's my opinion. I say that we just educate people and hope that common sense gets them further than seventh grade.

Captain Blackout said:
That leaves HBD. This one is objective but arguments for particular values can be made both before and after other values are assigned, especially since it ranges from positive to negative in order to produce a more meaningful composite rating. That's the biggest nightmare.

Obviously in many systems simplicity can hide complexity and this system clearly does in value assignment. Still, would you rather have the FDA have rational arguments over complex assignments to simple values rather than the crapola they pull now?
Good point. FDA is synonymous with incompetence in my mind, though.

Captain Blackout said:
Finally, the openness of the system leaves the option of values for adults vs. children, values for under-, regular and over-use, values for individuals with uncommon physiologies and values based on accumulated data like averages or means. Yes, there is complexity but that complexity brings with it the benefit of openness in the level of tailoring, a worth-while benefit. An individual can make rational choices based on their own experiences and knowledge of themselves and the substances they are considering long before they ever read the FDA's or DEA's value assignments. The beauty of adaptable simplicity!
True. What control group would you use as the basis of raw data? Or would you just use pre-existing stuff?
 

Seanchaidh

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Captain Blackout said:
Seanchaidh said:
The FDA, instead of putting numbers next to things in order to classify what substances need for paternalistic reasons to be outlawed, should confine themselves to evaluating contamination and production processes, warning labels and other publishing of accurate information so that people can make informed choices rather than have their choices made for them. They do not need some pseudo-scientific classification system in order to justify their decisions. For sure they don't need things simplified into one 'composite rating.'

I mean, where's taste and pure awesome on that table? They aren't, nor should they be, but those are both valuable factors in a person's decision. You can't replicate the weighing of those factors in some sterile government administration. You can however leave people to make informed choices for themselves (or uninformed if they don't want the input) because people tend to be better judges of what is best for them than disinterested committees with no genuine stake in the issue. Personal decisions are one place where it is preferable to include the bias of the participant.
Are you trolling me on purpose? Two of your criteria are purely tangential at best to what I'm after, I listed multiple examples in the opening to the OP to show use far beyond the FDA (they are an example and my personal ***** for this post, given that they clearly want more control than they deserve but won't use it competently), and there are damn good reasons medicines aren't all openly available.

You seem to have a talent for reading my posts, commenting, while ignoring the parts you want to skirt around.
Way to just assume that "what you're after" is desirable. Look, you can make asinine accusations about trolling all you want, or how I'm supposedly 'skirting around' something, but your idea is bad for reasons beyond not achieving "what you're after."

And I said so.