The Best Explanation for why FF 13 was a Terrible Game

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nullplan

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That dissection is quite off the mark sometimes - we do get a bit of backstory for Sazh and Dahj later (why do Fantasy authors always need to make names incredibly hard to write?). But yeah, another bit of nonsense added in: "Dad, let's do something together!" - "OK, son, to the power station!" - "Yay!".

Spoilers below.

Sazh and his son were taking a trip to the local Fal'Cie power station. Why? I don't know. I know Sazh wanted to give his son a Chocobo chick afterwards, though. However, the station got attacked by the freshly reawakened Fang and Vanille, so the Fal'Cie made Dahj a L'Cie to protect itself. Why? It was a power station, there had to be people there more qualified than a six year old. Anyway, after the authorities had sealed off Palumpolum, the purge train was basically the only way out of there, and Sazh wanted to go looking for his son, who was in PSICOM captivity now. So he just volunteered for the Purge.

Which is another ass pull: The Purge was meant to be banishment from Cocoon (that it was murder was not known to the public). So if he hadn't been so extremely lucky to sit directly next to Lightning in the probably only train that got hit by that weird red thing in the beginning, he'd have gotten himself tossed off the freaking planet where the one person is he is looking for!

Apropos weird red thing: What was that? It didn't appear to be a planned occurrence, or else the guard wouldn't have chosen that moment for his round. But why would, say, NORA plant something like this? They had no way of knowing that a commando like Lightning would be aboard one of these trains. Or that she would not be cuffed at the feet.

That red thing is really a microcosm of what's wrong with the story: It's the first thing that happens, and it makes no sense: Why do these robes cuff everyone's hands but not their feet? And why don't they cuff their wearers to the chairs? If you want a prisoner transport, go all the way! Why has the guard that patrols the prisoners ('cause that's what they were at that point) a remote for uncuffing everyone? Why is uncuffing everyone achievable with a single button press? Two hand controls are something we figured out already, and FF13 looks pretty futuristic to me! And as far as I know, in prisons the guard with the keys never enters a prisoner's cell for the reason demonstrated in the opening cinematic.

But what really got me was the general smell of excrement on that story by the end that came from repeatedly pulling plot points from someone's arse. So the Fal'Cie are death seekers. Great. Why don't they just jump in front of a train and get it over with? Oh, they cannot self-terminate. But they apparently can recruit l'Cie to fight against other Fal'Cie, so why don't they just kill each other? The Fal'Cie want the party to kill Orphan. Great. Killing Orphan will shut down Cocoon, so it'll crash into Pulse, killing probably everyone on Cocoon. Even better. My party doesn't want that to happen. Now we're getting somewhere! But then my party proceeds to destroy Orphan anyway, who by the way puts up a real good fight (the cheater, but that's further down). Now, why would Orphan struggle if he wants to die? And why would my party fight him if they don't want him to die? And then Vanille and Fang transform into Ragnarok. Now the smell gets impenetrable: It was previously pointed out that they were the previous Ragnarok, but Ragnarok was supposed to be everyone's focus. So why do only Vanille and Fang transform? And then they somehow attract all the crystal dust from Pulse's surface and make it into a pillar. Can you say Deus ex Machina?

But even a crap story could have been forgiven if there actually was something of a game in this game somewhere. However, there was not: Gameplay consists of walking down a linear corridor and getting into fights. The fights are also all the same: Hit toughest hitter in the enemy team with COM/COM/COM for a round, then switch to RAV/RAV/RAV until staggered, then back to COM/COM/COM until dead. Throw in the occasional HLR/HLR/SEN for when your HP get low. Repeat until no enemy remains. I heard people complain of 5 minute fights everywhere, but I usually had 10 second fights, just curb stomping the enemies. And there is simply no joy to be gotten from doing the only thing you actually can do (walking down a linear corridor) and curb stomping every enemy along the way. There was no adversity to overcome here and no story to hold my interest. If I hadn't played it at a friend's house, I likely wouldn't have finished the game.

And then, in the final boss fight, the designers pull what is technically known as a dick move! Before that every enemy would telegraph its next attack by flashing the name on the screen, leaving you some time (sometimes very little, but still) to run for cover (i.e. switch to SEN/SEN/SEN) if need be. But the final boss has a move that does not get telegraphed, is extremely powerful and pauses the battle, so that once the animation has started, with no prior warning, you cannot switch paradigms. Hope you have enough HP to survive that one!

Apart from that, the game has two upgrade mechanics, both of which dysfunctional in their own ways: The Crystarium upgrade system is how you level up your characters, but it just makes you spend an inordinate amount of time advancing through another type of linear corridor. The only meaningful choice you can make during this is what class to spend your CP on. But during most of the game you only have 2 or 3 classes to choose from and more than enough CP to hit the ceiling in all of them. Then, later, when you have all 6 classes with all characters, choosing any class other than the 3 already advanced ones is simply not economical. So you just advance through those classes and hit the final ceiling just before the final boss fight. So this system is basically to easy. Unless you really want to upgrade every one of your characters to maximum, then it shares a trait with the other system.

The weapon upgrade system is unusable without Strategy Wiki. With it, you know what to invest and what not. But even then, I calculated that upgrading any weapon from starting point to maximum costs in the ballpark of 3.5 M Gil. I collected about 0.5 M Gil during the course of the entire game! And that's what you need to spend for a single weapon, and you have three people in your main battle party, and six over all! The biggest problem being Trapezohedrons. Those cost 2 M Gil each and you need one for each weapon you want to upgrade to tier 3. The only alternative is to beat up those huge monsters in the Archylte Steppe, who drop this item 1% of the time, so you need to kill on average 100 of those to get a single Trapezohedron. However, you can increase your chances by getting a certain item from a certain mission (called something's Catalog), upgrading that to a Collector's Catalog, and then get five stars in the fight against these monsters (meaning you have to be really fricking fast!) All of that together ups your chances to 10%, so you need to kill on average 10 of these guys to get a single trapezohedron. Since it doesn't sell so well, you still need another 1.5 M Gil for each weapon you want to upgrade to maximum. So this system is just _way_too_hard_!

Over all this game has nothing to engage me with and no noteworthy mechanics that could make it worth my while.
 

Zeraki

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Folksoul said:
It's totally explained. IN CUTSCENE. IN PLAIN ENGLISH!(or language of your choice) He bought it for his son. Who was taken my the sanctum. Because of Vanille's backstory. It's the last thing he has of Dajh. Sazh explains this to Vanille around chapter 8.


Alright, admittedly I got carried away with my examples. My initial point which got lost in an exaggerated rant, was that the game doesn't bother telling you what a lot of the terminology means and I don't want to have to go into the data log to learn why I should care about them.

It's a video game, not a book. I shouldn't have to read codex entries, breaking the flow of gameplay just so I can understand what people are talking about. A codex should be something optional, like in the Mass Effect series. You don't need it, but it's there if you want a little bit of additional information that wasn't included in the dialogue.

I already said I didn't like the characters, and I didn't find the story engaging in the slightest. So I stopped playing after a while. Like I said, if the story and the characters can't hook me into a game that could potentially last for up to 40-60 hours, it isn't worth my time. So yeah, I jumped the gun on the Frocobo thing and I apologize for that.

I might give it another chance in the future, but right now I have no interest in touching it again.
 

wooty

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Hmmm, back to this tired old opinion. I thought the time for ranting on FF-XIII was loooong past. Or is this just to pass the time until Microsoft does something silly again.

No, FF-XIII did not live up to its series' lineage or get proclaimed as the best one ever. Yes, it was playable game and a visual treat. I often wonder whether its worth me posting a massive rant on "Why Skyrim is a terrible game", but I know its all purely subjective and I'll probably get shouted down by 300+ replies. So why bother.
 

nullplan

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@wooty: No, I saved up my ranting till now. And it happens now because Lightning Returns is on the shelves.
 

votemarvel

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Just speaking personally I found the game to be so reliant on people diving into its journal that it felt more like a book than a game.

Mass Effect for example has a huge codex but you never need to go into it to follow what is going on. in FF13 however I found myself constantly going into it because I had no clue what they were talking about.

I also found the combat rather dull, it never felt to me that I had any real input on what was going on.

Still I love Final Fantasy and was prepared to continue. I reached around five hours play time, not a huge amount I know, when a friend commented that the game takes fifteen hours to 'get good'.

I turned the console off and haven't played the game since.
 

Folksoul

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Tank207 said:
Folksoul said:
It's totally explained. IN CUTSCENE. IN PLAIN ENGLISH!(or language of your choice) He bought it for his son. Who was taken my the sanctum. Because of Vanille's backstory. It's the last thing he has of Dajh. Sazh explains this to Vanille around chapter 8.


Alright, admittedly I got carried away with my examples. My initial point which got lost in an exaggerated rant, was that the game doesn't bother telling you what a lot of the terminology means and I don't want to have to go into the data log to learn why I should care about them. It's a video game, not a book. I shouldn't have to read codex entries, breaking the flow of gameplay just so I can understand what people are talking about. A codex should be something optional, like in the Mass Effect series. You don't need it, but it's there if you want a little bit of additional information that wasn't included in the dialogue.

I already said I didn't like the characters, and I didn't find the story engaging in the slightest. So I stopped playing after a while. Like I said, if the story and the characters can't hook me into a game that could potentially last for up to 40-60 hours, it isn't worth my time. So yeah, I jumped the gun on the Frocobo thing and I apologize for that.

I might give it another chance in the future, but right now I have no interest in touching it again.
I'm not saying that the game is the best thing ever. I'm a huge fan of this trilogy and I'd still only give it a 6.5/10. The sequels do play better objectively but the story is still up for interpretation. I'm saying that most of the common criticisms against it don't make sense. See all of Spoony's rants about this game. He has yet to convince me that he's played it. He got everything except the characters names wrong and edits around the explanations all the while claiming that nothing is explained.
 

00slash00

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Well that was a long and thought out explanation for why you didn't like Final Fantasy 13. Allow me to offer a rebuttal...I don't care how others felt about the game because I personally loved the game and had fun playing it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't want to try and force people to adopt my opinion. This puts me in stark contrast to most of the vocal FF13 haters, who seem intent on convincing anyone who liked the game, that their opinion is wrong.
 

EternallyBored

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Tank207 said:
Folksoul said:
It's totally explained. IN CUTSCENE. IN PLAIN ENGLISH!(or language of your choice) He bought it for his son. Who was taken my the sanctum. Because of Vanille's backstory. It's the last thing he has of Dajh. Sazh explains this to Vanille around chapter 8.


Alright, admittedly I got carried away with my examples. My initial point which got lost in an exaggerated rant, was that the game doesn't bother telling you what a lot of the terminology means and I don't want to have to go into the data log to learn why I should care about them. It's a video game, not a book. I shouldn't have to read codex entries, breaking the flow of gameplay just so I can understand what people are talking about. A codex should be something optional, like in the Mass Effect series. You don't need it, but it's there if you want a little bit of additional information that wasn't included in the dialogue.

I already said I didn't like the characters, and I didn't find the story engaging in the slightest. So I stopped playing after a while. Like I said, if the story and the characters can't hook me into a game that could potentially last for up to 40-60 hours, it isn't worth my time. So yeah, I jumped the gun on the Frocobo thing and I apologize for that.

I might give it another chance in the future, but right now I have no interest in touching it again.
You're better off not bothering, the characters don't change enough to grab you later in the game if you failed to find them interesting within the first 10-20 hours or so, and the sequels are pretty much more of the same, if you didn't like the first one, the characters and story in 13-2 and Lightning probably won't grab you either, although the gameplay changes enough that I know people who hated the combat in 13 warmed up to it more in 13-2, and some people seem to really like the more actiony system in Lightning Returns.

Fun fact though, that baby chocobo Sazh has in his afro gets turned into a human in 13-2 where she wears a chocobo feather bikini and now runs the item shop for your characters while being a time traveling immortal who at one point travels through time just to fuck with Sazh by revealing that she's the chocobo that spent all of 13 nesting in his hair. I'm not sharing this for any specific reason, just to point out that the sequels to 13 somehow manage to get even more batshit insane.
 

Zeraki

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Folksoul said:
I'm not saying that the game is the best thing ever. I'm a huge fan of this trilogy and I'd still only give it a 6.5/10. The sequels do play better objectively but the story is still up for interpretation. I'm saying that most of the common criticisms against it don't make sense. See all of Spoony's rants about this game. He has yet to convince me that he's played it. He got everything except the characters names wrong and edits around the explanations all the while claiming that nothing is explained.
That is perfectly understandable. I should have been a lot more clear in my initial post, instead of letting myself get so horribly off point.
 
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Folksoul said:
If good story-telling is expecting the audience to only accept what is ******DIRECTLY SAID IN OBVIOUS TEXT******* then Lord Of the Rings is the worst story ever written. 90-100% of the world building is in the appendices or other books. Why are there only 5 wizards? They're damned useful even if one went evil. Why can't we train more? etc...
I never read any of the appendices or other books from lord of the rings (aside from the hobbit). It was STILL a damn good story.

Also, your claim that we're arguing that everything needs to be explained in OBVIOUS TEST is silly.

The fact is that if the only way the player can enjoy the story is if they NEED to read all the optional codex logs, then your story is awful.

As a storyteller, you need to draw the player in and invest them in the world and heroes. Tell us where they came from, why they are the way they are. It doesn't even need to be explicit! It can be just an offhand comment that fills in some gaps! Hell, even well done environmental details can fill them in!

I didn't read much of the codex entries for Mass Effect 1-2-3 either and I STILL had a good time. But imagine if the only indication we got that the geth and the Quarians once shared a homeworld was JUST in the codexes and no one brought it up before the big showdown of ME3? That whole segment of the story would feel super out of place!

The codexes and stuff should be for stuff that's interesting, but not essential. Why are there only 5 wizards in LOTR? I don't know, and the fact that I didn't know did not impact my enjoyment of the novel at all. Now, if I had to read the optional books to understand why the Ring was so important to Sauron's plans, on the other hand, THEN the story would have been kinda bad.
 

Ipsen

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00slash00 said:
Well that was a long and thought out explanation for why you didn't like Final Fantasy 13. Allow me to offer a rebuttal...I don't care how others felt about the game because I personally loved the game and had fun playing it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't want to try and force people to adopt my opinion. This puts me in stark contrast to most of the vocal FF13 haters, who seem intent on convincing anyone who liked the game, that their opinion is wrong.
Absolutely fine to like the game. There is a bit way too many of this topic, but where this seems to piss so many Final Fantasy fans off (at least, this fan) is that, however wonky you find Final Fantasy stories, Square became known for them. I acknowledged Square for them. I find it...well, disrespectful of this company (and the cornerstone of their success) that my attempts on focusing in on the story, the reason I buy Final Fantasy titles, threw me through such an unpleasant loop.
 

Maximum Bert

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CelestDaer said:
Maximum Bert said:
I wouldnt call that a perfect dissection I feel the complaint here is in the story was not what was wanted or expected. I never got the feeling in the game that it was about the characters as they were before but rather about them in that moment basically them becoming L`cie (whatever it was called) and the duty they are tasked with.
Knowing a bit more about what leads them to act the way they do after becoming cursed would have helped the narrative, and given the player perspective into how they think...
Not disputing that I personally dont think the story is very strong same with XII and a few other FF games but I got the impression when playing that I was supposed to be witnessing a moment just a window in their lives and that is wasnt focused on fleshing out the characters as much as concerned with the unfolding events. Rather than telling you in the scenes why they are the way they are a lot is inferred mostly poorly imo but thats what I feel they were going for. Also their motives are basically acting to save the ones they care about and ofc they either have to complete their mystery assignment of defeat the cieth (the one who gave them the mark I may have the name wrong) otherwise they will be turned into monsters themselves so they sort of act out of desperation to protect the ones they love in a sense and of self preservation which gives as much cause for their actions as any other. Its also why I feel the story is more hurried maybe they wanted to drive home the urgency and it would seem a bit silly if they were on a time limit and there was loads of flashbacks and discussions about how they grew up etc although it did give limited insight into their past lives if I remember correctly much more than XII did for most of its cast anyway. Not saying that it couldnt have been done better but I do get the feeling they werent going for detailed character narrative here.

CelestDaer said:
Maximum Bert said:
Also side note cant believe people are still talking about this game XV is out soonish lets wait and see what happens with that.
Because Lightning Returns, or FF13 part 3 is due out soon?
Its out now so why arent we talking about that game? probably because a lot of people havent bought it and so for some reason XIII is brought up again its like talking about ME1 when ME3 is released. I mean not that it matters but it just seems a bit weird to start a thread about why XIII is so bad its not even contentious for most people, I dont think many would argue its not the strongest FF game.

EternallyBored said:
What CelestDaer said, also FF 15 originally started out as a game called FF 13 versus, and was going to be another part of an entire series spinning off of 13 as a shared mythos. There's also the speculation that the ending of 13-3 is actually showing the world of 15, and that Lightning may end up being in that game.

That's part of why 13 still gets brought up, because Square keeps trying to shove its world and mythology down our throats, to the point that even the next main numbered game started out as linked to the world of 13. Square stated way back in 2009, that they wanted to make 13 the origin story of a shared mythos that would ripple out to numerous other final fantasy title, to the point that even future FF games would share concepts like L'cie, Fal'cie, and characters like Lightning would be a common link between future FF game even more so than things like chocobos and characters named Cid.

For people that didn't like 13, especially those that didn't like its story and world (since combat and individual story and characters can be fixed), there's a certain amount of disconnect in seeing Square trying to tie this series intrinsically into the entire future of the Final Fantasy franchise.
I know about the origins of XV but I think the thread should have been titled along the lines of why Lightning is a bad character rather than XIII that would have been better and more relevant for discussion and essentially its what most of the OP comments are directed at anyway.

Ive heard their intentions to make Lightning have guest appearances I seriously hope that dosent happen in the FF series I personally dont hate the character but I certainly dont like her and if they do make her have guest appearances or more I think it will do more harm than good as despite what polls may say I dont think she is that popular and they have way more popular and better characters throughout the series. That said Hopefully she is in the remake of FFVII and Cloud kills her in the Gold saucer arena and its canon.
 

EternallyBored

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Maximum Bert said:
I know about the origins of XV but I think the thread should have been titled along the lines of why Lightning is a bad character rather than XIII that would have been better and more relevant for discussion and essentially its what most of the OP comments are directed at anyway.

Ive heard their intentions to make Lightning have guest appearances I seriously hope that dosent happen in the FF series I personally dont hate the character but I certainly dont like her and if they do make her have guest appearances or more I think it will do more harm than good as despite what polls may say I dont think she is that popular and they have way more popular and better characters throughout the series. That said Hopefully she is in the remake of FFVII and Cloud kills her in the Gold saucer arena and its canon.
I can agree with that, although the post that the OP quoted was trying to extrapolate Lightning's flaws out into being indicative of flaws with the game as a whole, the post is still mostly arguing about just Lightning, and just in context to the first game of the trilogy. I suppose I was mostly commenting on why people seem to be talking about FF 13 again, what with the recent release of the final part of the 13 trilogy, and the rumors and speculation surrounding FF 15's overall world and place in the FF lineup.

As for Lightning herself, yeah, I don't particularly hate her, I found Titus to be more annoying, and I still tolerated him for the entire length of FF X, but I agree with the quoted OP post insofar as Lightning is basically just a poorly executed attempt at making a female Cloud, without the interesting backstory and personal connections with the other party members, and the world at large.

I really hope that Square doesn't go through with its rumored plans to have her pop up as a recurring character or background element in future FF games. I know that Square wants 13 to serve as the foundation of a shared mythology for a lot of other FF games, like Ivalice was for FF 12, Tactics, Tactics advance, and Vagrant Story, but including a specific character like Lightning is not something I want to see in entirely unconnected FF games. At this point, I just want FF to not borrow too much from FF 13's world and setting.

As of Lightning Returns, the game ends with Lightning destroying God (God turns out to be kind of a dick in a Final Fantasy game, What a shocker), and ultimately being taken to a new world with all her friends, the game ends with her stepping off a train in a world that looks pretty much like Earth, more specifically somewhere in Europe. The rumor is that this "new world" that looks almost identical to real earth, shares some link with the world of FF 15, but there isn't anything concrete on that yet, and the most official information about Lightning being in future FF games comes from Toriyama himself who has stated that he would like to see her as a guest character in future games, although he might just be talking about spinoffs like Dissidia and kingdom hearts, so we probably won't know until 15 actually gets a solid release date.
 

Sniper Team 4

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GiantRaven said:
The biggest problem I could observe from watching my finace play it was that it seemed to basically play itself. The only real input she seemed to have was walking forward during non-combat segments and then hammering A during battles.

There seemed to be absolutely no variation upon that theme of the barest interaction at all.
That is very true for the vast majority of the game. In fact, you can get away with that right up until a certain boss fight about 3/4 of the way through the game. There tactics suddenly become very important and you will find that you will be doing more than just hitting a single button. However, most people will not be used to the sudden change in gameplay and get stomped.
There are several optional fights in XIII where, to me, they felt right up there with Ruby, Emerald, Ozma, and Omega in terms of on-the-edge-of-your-seat player involvement. Unfortunately, they aren't until late in the game and thus most fights do feel like you're not doing much.
 

Dragonpit

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CelestDaer said:
Maximum Bert said:
I wouldnt call that a perfect dissection I feel the complaint here is in the story was not what was wanted or expected. I never got the feeling in the game that it was about the characters as they were before but rather about them in that moment basically them becoming L`cie (whatever it was called) and the duty they are tasked with.
Knowing a bit more about what leads them to act the way they do after becoming cursed would have helped the narrative, and given the player perspective into how they think...
Maximum Bert said:
Also side note cant believe people are still talking about this game XV is out soonish lets wait and see what happens with that.
Because Lightning Returns, or FF13 part 3 is due out soon?
Actually Lightning Returns came out over a week ago. I know; I got it launch day. If anything, it should mean it's being talked about quite a bit.
 

renegade7

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Legomaniac91 said:
I though the explanation was that they blew their budget on the visuals and marketing so they had to half-ass everything else.
Pretty much this. You can dissect it all you like and create an unending litany of complaints about balance, about storyline, about gameplay, you name it. At the end of the day, the problem underpinning literally everything else was that Squeenix tried to sell the game on flash and spectacle, not on being a great game.
 

klaynexas3

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gavinmcinns said:
The only thing Chocorodeo didn't explain, I feel like I can pretty well and simply. It was why Lightening became a soldier. First off, she was more apart of a section of soldiers that were nothing more than peace keepers, a better term would be cops. They simply look out for the people in their town, break up trouble, simple stuff. Well, I feel it's pretty obvious that Lightening has a giant "big brother" complex, that she has to protect Serah. What better way to protect those you care about than to become a cop? Why she has this complex? Her parents had died, she needed to man up or else she and Serah wouldn't have survived. Hell, maybe being a cop paid real well and didn't require any major education, that's a reason why plenty of people in real life become actual soldiers. They don't say it out right, it's more so implied, and quite frankly, that's probably one of the better aspects of the story telling in the game, that it shows instead of tells. Granted, sometimes they completely forget to even show, so that's a major error on the writers' behalfs, but when it does work it works relatively well.

I'm not going to say the game is great or even good. A 6/10 at best and that's being generous, but it's nowhere near as bad as what most people say. Though, in this day anything below a 7 gets treated like fried shit on a stick dipped in vomit and STDs.
 

gavinmcinns

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Legomaniac91 said:
I though the explanation was that they blew their budget on the visuals and marketing so they had to half-ass everything else.
Which was so misguided,The graphics aren't even impressive for one, and two, even if they blow your mind, that kind of thing doesn't last unless you have a very unique visual style. Story and gameplay are what make a timeless game timeless.
Maximum Bert said:
Also side note cant believe people are still talking about this game XV is out soonish lets wait and see what happens with that.
The same thing is going to happen to 15. This game has been at least 8 years in the making, back when they were smoking the 13 crack. Hell it used to be called 13, what makes you think this Game is going to be any different?
 

gavinmcinns

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EternallyBored said:
Fun fact though, that baby chocobo Sazh has in his afro gets turned into a human in 13-2 where she wears a chocobo feather bikini and now runs the item shop for your characters while being a time traveling immortal who at one point travels through time just to fuck with Sazh by revealing that she's the chocobo that spent all of 13 nesting in his hair. I'm not sharing this for any specific reason, just to point out that the sequels to 13 somehow manage to get even more batshit insane.
Wow that is so dumb, even in fantasy there needs to be some boundaries, it makes it all the more compelling when they're broken. But if there are no rules, then the world just becomes a hot mess. Time travelling immortal bikini clad bird girl. I can't imagine how they tried to explain that one. I could maybe stomach that if somebody wished it after collecting all the dragon balls.