The Big Picture: Combat Evolved?

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Wandrecanada

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Freaking genius! As much as I love the movie reviews from someone who seems remotely culturally aware I'm really glad the Chipman is moving outside the norm into things more abstract. I'm always in support of people bringing forward the things we need to discuss, especially when they're something people are so reticent to have a public opinion on. Difficult Discussion Incoming! Fantastic news!

PS: Between The Big Picture and Extra Credit, The Escapist has elevated Tuesdays and Thursdays to culturally relevant event days! Add the sometimes cultural discussions from weekly feature articles and I'll be wrapped in controversy all week long! Yay!
 

Sodoff

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Oct 15, 2009
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What if you looked at it the other way around?

Isen't a unified human race diverse?

And it is worth mentioning that the Covenant are made out to be bad guys because they are trying to wipe out humanity.
The diversity of alien races might as well be a gameplay element to make for more, diverse, enemies.

Great show, but I think comparing a game that is basically about shooting aliens in the face to a neo nazi conspiracy is abit much.
 

DannibalG36

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Apparently, MovieBob forgot that he himself noted that the Covenant were diverse but enslaved when he launched into his little "Master Race" rant, although his comparison of Halo with the conflict between the Greeks and Persians was spot on. And was 300 fascist? Maybe. But it was one hell of an awesome, gory film.
 

Tsaba

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Oct 6, 2009
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"I am working for crazy people and it's awesome!" -MovieBob
You got my attention, interesting show, look forward to new installments.
 

weary

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THIS
Bobic said:
Has it crossed bobs mind that maybe their isn't some big ugly subtext and maybe the reason for all the different creeds and colours of the enemies is to give you more variation in the things you shoot at?
Different races are a great way of introducing different enemy mechanics and somewhat (ineffectively) getting rid of some of the repetitious feel of the game.

Also it could be argued that the choice of a focus on fascism works very well. It dose a lot to help the storey spreading a nice blob of grey over the usual black and white. And now I'm more aware of it I think that ill find my role in the game more disturbing and a lot more interesting. Dystopia > Utopia
 

General Vagueness

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To everyone making claims about why people play Halo or why they like it or what it's good for, I'll just say the story can be pretty involved, even if over half of it is in the novels and other non-game sources, and there are fans that love all of it, and fans that love some of it, and fans that don't care and just love it because it's really fun, and fans that play it mostly for the story, and even fans that made a website that says, nominally and not seriously, that Halo: Reach isn't canon to draw attention to how think the story has been harmed.
Anyway, that's one of the nice somewhat unique things about Halo, sure it's shooting aliens in space (SPAAACE Space space space) but they aren't all faceless, even the ones that are actually part of a hivemind (though less so), and it turns out they aren't evil, and they don't just want to take over or destroy us and our homes because they felt cranky that day. As for the Spartans, that is to say, the successful participants in the Spartan-II and Spartan-III programs, the sameness is on purpose, for a variety of reasons-- there aren't a lot of civilians shown in the series but the ones that are are pretty different from each other.
The whole societal thing or whatever you want to call it, that's kind of the point, in Halo 2, though unfortunately not any of the others, the motivations for the Covenant are explored pretty well, and first contact with the Covenant, as shown in the novel written not by an outside author but the guy who does the stories for the games, was diplomatic and tried to continue that way, the Covenant were the first aggressors. The Conversations from the Universe booklet that came with the limited edition of Halo 2 is a pretty good source too, it shows an Elite that respects humans and thinks they're worthy of consideration for joining the Covenant, and of course by Halo 3 they've joined forces-- I think Hood's speech at the end of Halo 3 sums up a lot of it well, where he talks to the Arbiter, "I remember how this war started. What your kind did to mine. I can't forgive you. But... you have my thanks, for standing by him to the end," after which they shake hands.
As mentioned above, we're talking about video games here, there are hardware and software restrictions and matters of aesthetics, having more types of enemies to deal with is generally more fun, and the Spartans are partly so similar because it saves on disk space and memory to load the same things and use them over and over-- this would be the point where I point out Noble team, for all their faults, are at least varied, and are different people, and have somewhat different armor and gear to top it off.
Also the blue eyes thing may in fact have subtext but not what you think: blue is kind of the color of the Halo series, that Spartan's armor and that of another on Noble team are blue, the logo is (generally) blue, Cortana is (generally) blue, some of the Covenant's weapons are blue and most of the rest of the Covenant's stuff is purple, which is close to blue, Grunts have blue blood, and a lot of the tiny lights on Forerunner architecture are blue, not to mention the gas seen stored in Halo 2 and the power storage devices seen in various Forerunner places in Halo 2 and 3 glow blue.
There's one more thing, and it's more of an issue, the Covenant forces aren't exactly a slave army, the Engineers are pretty much forced to comply and the Drones are in a situation like blackmail or ransom, the leaders of the Covenant keep their colonies and queen in good condition, and the Hunters realized they couldn't win the war they were fighting against the Covenant and joined them and have a lot of respect for the Elites, but the Jackals are pretty much doing it for money, and the rest of the races are trying to recover Forerunner stuff to reach salvation through a poorly-understood "Great Journey", and will eliminate whatever stands in the way of that.
As a bit of an aside, also in the extended fiction although does show up a tiny bit in Halo Wars and Reach, humanity isn't as united as you might think, the whole reason the Spartan-II program was created was to put down human insurrectionist rebellions, and as was said in the video the making of Spartans isn't always shown as being the noblest or most moral thing to do.
This Movie Bob guy and Yahtzee both act like they know the Halo story probably because people have pointed stuff like this out to them and then they miss these things that indicate they don't know it, obviously they looked into it a little bit and that's nice but it's clear to me they're bluffing a bit and that's pretty frustrating.
 

lewiswhitling

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I'm actually loving the new things that the escapist is putting up :) What with the adoption of extra credits too. To anyone that says these two things are just the same old "soapbox" episodes - well i say that you already have your pick of about 7 different cartoons on this site. I for one would enjoy even more discussion of things I haven't really thought about.

OT: i enjoyed the episode very much. Looking forward to my future education in geek lore n narrative critique :)
 

FistsOfTinsel

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Archangel357 said:
Bobic said:
But you could read something negative like that into any form of media, it doesn't mean that anything of the sort actually exists on any level, including a subliminal one.
First rule of hermeneutics: if you can read it into it, it is there, even if it wasn't in the creator's intentions to include it - because the creator himself is shaped by temporal and local epistemes down to a subconscious level. All you need are arguments.

Bob did deliver arguments which are not easily dismissed, so the subtext is there.
But what does hermeneutics say about reading subtext into features that exist solely because of the medium? For example, would you read into the fact that all of Citizen Kane is not shot in color ("Kane's manachean view of the universe is expressed by the fact that he only sees those around him in black and white..."), or that a novel fails to include any illustrations?

Most of what Bob talks about is a function of the fact that the player spends 99% of their time looking down the sights of a rifle at various Covenant races. Having a wide variety of shooting gallery targets is more interesting than shooting the same creature over & over. Their #1 priority in Halo was to present an engaging run & gun experience (their "30 seconds of fun" principal). The story is an afterthought to provide rationale for this. Also, looking at Bungies history of FPS gaming, it has always been thus. From the beginning (1993's Pathways Into Darkness), it's been a single protagonist with a variety of weapons & limited resources plowing through a wide variety of weird critters.

And, seriously, how many other contexts can you have for presenting an endless supply of targets for you to shoot and/or avoid? A pluralistic utopia like "Star Trek" isn't going to cut it.
 

Fr]anc[is

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YAY MORE MOVIEBOB! Good call Escapist!

I did always like the Covenant a lot more than the humans. Every once in a while it's fun to strap on the T-51b, but there are way too many space marines right now. Very interesting idea Bob, especially coming from a series usually defined as bland.
 

josemlopes

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Ultratwinkie said:
Zakarath said:
Ampersand said:
I know it's kind of your job to over think things but would you not think that maybe the reason that the enemies in halo are alot more diverse then the player characters is because......they're the ones we're looking at all the time. It's a first person game remeber?

Also there are no good guys in halo. The spartans kill just as many humans as they do covenant, and in all of the stories surrounding the series, just as much sympathy is conveyed for the races of the covenant as for the humans, including halo 2 where you actually play as an elite.
In fact the only thing that comes close to a villain in the entire series is the flood......you know the homogenous consumption driven mass, the only aim of which is to propagate itself by means of wiping all individualism from the face the universe.
Exactly. He is reading waaay to much into this, and he's coming at it from the wrong angle. By the end of Halo 3 you're practically working with the Covenant against the Flood, whose STATED GOAL in the ark terminals is the utter homogenizing of the entire galaxy/universe.
Oh, and also: We were fighting the Covenant because their "arcane belief system" led them to try and wipe us out. I guess because they looked more diverse we should have just let them kill all the humans, right? Oh, and they were going to extinguish all life from the galaxy because their crazy prophets wanted to become gods. THAT is why we were fighting them, not because they were "the other". And honestly, DIVERSITY IN YOUR ENEMIES IS NECESSARY FOR INTERESTING GAMEPLAY. Oh, and one last point: you might want to note that for Halo 3, your team is comprised primarily of an alien, a black guy, a robot, and the love interest is an AI. If that isn't a diverse cast, I don't know what is.
but does that mean your ALLIES have to look the same? hell no.
Go to the army and tell me if they look like a rainbow
 

Zakarath

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Ultratwinkie said:
Zakarath said:
Ultratwinkie said:
Gigaguy64 said:
Ultratwinkie said:
Zakarath said:
Ampersand said:
I know it's kind of your job to over think things but would you not think that maybe the reason that the enemies in halo are alot more diverse then the player characters is because......they're the ones we're looking at all the time. It's a first person game remeber?

Also there are no good guys in halo. The spartans kill just as many humans as they do covenant, and in all of the stories surrounding the series, just as much sympathy is conveyed for the races of the covenant as for the humans, including halo 2 where you actually play as an elite.
In fact the only thing that comes close to a villain in the entire series is the flood......you know the homogenous consumption driven mass, the only aim of which is to propagate itself by means of wiping all individualism from the face the universe.
Exactly. He is reading waaay to much into this, and he's coming at it from the wrong angle. By the end of Halo 3 you're practically working with the Covenant against the Flood, whose STATED GOAL in the ark terminals is the utter homogenizing of the entire galaxy/universe.
Oh, and also: We were fighting the Covenant because their "arcane belief system" led them to try and wipe us out. I guess because they looked more diverse we should have just let them kill all the humans, right? Oh, and they were going to extinguish all life from the galaxy because their crazy prophets wanted to become gods. THAT is why we were fighting them, not because they were "the other". And honestly, DIVERSITY IN YOUR ENEMIES IS NECESSARY FOR INTERESTING GAMEPLAY. Oh, and one last point: you might want to note that for Halo 3, your team is comprised primarily of an alien, a black guy, a robot, and the love interest is an AI. If that isn't a diverse cast, I don't know what is.
but does that mean your ALLIES have to look the same? hell no.
I remember in Halo 2 i had a Hispanic man, a Woman, and SGT.Johnson on my team during several missions.
And hell you got to work with Elites in H3.

You played as a Human, generally Humans look the same in certain ways.
And they were apart of the military.
The Military uses uniforms.
oh great, token minorities to make a game not racist? wonderful. Not all military units mean everyone looks the same. They have different uniforms and issued weapons. In halo its the same damn spartan and the same damn star ship trooper look-a-like. Same weapons, same uniforms, and no resemblance to a working unit.

shotgun guy.
rifle guy.
green armor guy.

that's it. that is the scope of the human military? No battle medics, mechanics, tech specialist etc? A military means MORE than just a guy with a gun. They need soldiers to do a diverse range of functions. Halo soldiers just run about like jackasses shooting things and dying if anyone so much as farts in their direction.
ODST has a lot more of the diverse military unit thing going. You have Squad Commander Guy, Heavy weapons guy, explosives guy, pilot/tech guy, sniper guy, Navy Intelligence girl, etc.
so they hired some of the guys from Team Fortress 2? because that is hilarious.
Nope. who they did hire is the guys from Firefly. And it was awesome.
But what TF2 did was make caricatures of most of the standard combat archetypes, so any squad-based game is bound to have some similarities in function to TF2, even though the types are generally played more straight.
 

Wandrecanada

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FlameUnquenchable said:
The thing that bothers me here is, some of this could just be Overthinking the plot. It's a shooter, the story is somewhat involved but not overly, you've got aliens, it doesn't have to be read on the same level as Herbert, Asimov, Card, Gibson, Bradbury, Heinlein, Clarke, ..you see where I'm going.
It doesn't have to be read any way, but assuming for a moment it won't be read in a way that could promote hostility is ignorance. There's a reason harassment is never judged on the conceit of the perpetrator. Worrying about who you're not harming by creating a message is useless.

This leads us right to the whole Medal of Honor/Taliban/Opposing Force thing. What is justice? Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? When do the ends justify the means?

Should we talk about things that don't have clear answers of right or wrong? That's something Bob Chipman excels at doing and just talking about it at all is exactly what we need to do.
 

KO4U

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Aug 15, 2010
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"Reading into thing"

Screw repeating the name of the dolt who said that, because Bob's onto something here.
 

TrogzTheTroll

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I thought the Elites/Humans tag teamed up in Halo 2/3 to defeat the big bad flood. That worked pretty well.
 

JPArbiter

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Warachia said:
JPArbiter said:
I do appreciate the point being made however. Slave army or no the covenant do fascinate me more then humanities role in the Halo Universe, though that may be based on the unfamiliar vs familiar. Hell I want there to be an entire game centered around the Arbiter, preferably from well before or well after the current Halo Timeline.
there WAS a game centered around the arbiter, play halo 2.
I said entire game, not half a game. I also specified it be seperated from the "current" halo timeline.

TrogzTheTroll said:
I thought the Elites/Humans tag teamed up in Halo 2/3 to defeat the big bad flood. That worked pretty well.
good point, Bob makes no mention of how the flood play into this at all
 

Ancientgamer

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I'm not sure I like how you preface the rant by handwaving the obvious contextual allusion, saying "well nobody plays halo for the context" and then attempting to tear it a new one based on some artificial and incredibly flimsy context you assembled out of nowhere just for the purpose of demonizing the halo franchise. It's like Glenn Beck but for videogames.