The Big Picture: Combat Evolved?

Recommended Videos

blankedboy

New member
Feb 7, 2009
5,234
0
0
:|

Why is it that no matter how many times I try, I just can't stand listening to MovieBob? I honestly can't put my finger on it, but I just... don't care, I suppose. Have your opinion, and talk about it, but at least make it interesting or something... :\
 

Kwatsu

New member
Feb 21, 2007
198
0
0
Yeah... normally I like MovieBob's stuff, I enjoy his columns, but I think this was stretching for symbolism that wasn't there. I mean, the Covenant design and backstory could have been as simple as "this is an inversion of the normal roles in aliens vs humans stories, which usually have disparate humans band against one homogeneous alien force."

His analysis can be interesting, but this felt more like simply prodding the Halo community for a reaction, and reaching for connections that are not in evidence. MovieBob is better than that. Here's hoping the next video improves.
 

daspaintrain

New member
Aug 22, 2010
10
0
0
Okay,why are we talking about diversity and being afraid of change? The coventant are the bad guys because they are planning to KILL EVERYTHING, not because they're different.
 

Ross B

New member
Nov 10, 2010
8
0
0
Your right Movie Bob, they're in the majority so total galactic annihilation is obviously the moral high-ground. In fact fuck it, both groups (humans and covenant) don't like the flood much, but all they really wanna do is assimilate all life in the universe, and hey they've taken control of even more races than the covenant so that means they must have the moral high ground over them eh!

Majority does not equal correct. But hey when you start to feel your arguements slipping (I don't know why, can't slip if it's not there in the first place) make up some bullshit about master races and invoke the evil by association attack. Someone's been taking arguing tips from Teabaggers, pretty certain they've been waving Obama = Hitler posters all over the place.
 

raunchious

New member
Jun 29, 2009
35
0
0
The reason the covenant is a rainbow coalition of alien races is for gameplay variety.

There are better ways to bash halo, and I'm a fan: how about the fact that the series has been repeating the same old formula for five games? What are they, nintendo?
 

Epicurus

New member
May 11, 2008
72
0
0
I really liked this video! Fantastic work, Bob.

Oh, and every who's saying "Nuh uh, the covenant are bad because they're trying to kill everything, not because they're diverse!", you're missing the point. Destroying the universe is the plot device used to convey their evil nature in the game's narrative. You're still dealing with a multi-ethnic religious culture fighting a racially homogeneous militaristic culture, and that carries its own subtext whichever way it's portrayed.

As for the "reading too much into it" crowd. I don't think we read enough into things like these. Just because a story isn't meant to be complex doesn't mean it doesn't carry with it a ton of insight into the nature of the author's (and perhaps humanity's) psychology.

That said, Halo isn't nearly as bad at the Treyarch Call of Duty games, which appear to be an exercise in exceptionalism, with other races and political ideologies always being portrayed as eeeeeeevil compared to the "righteous might" of the American military and western democracy.
 

Vrach

New member
Jun 17, 2010
3,223
0
0
Hah, awesome episode for the new show, the beginning was brilliant ^^

Awesome points on Halo there, something to think about... though I have to say, while I am realistically against the whole fascist thing, theoretically it does makes sense. Less cultures, less diversity, less shit to fight about. One common goal for the entire world, everyone works towards the same thing, resulting in increased productivity and less resources wasted on stupid bullshit.

On the global scale it makes sense, hell Christianity is pretty much the same in that regard, tried to pull the same thing during the Crusades, they just yelled "hail the Lord" instead of "hail ". Not that it's alone in that as a religion.

Hell, in the middle of my last Civilization 3 game I realised I was pretty much playing an fascist's wet dream (and my 'justifications' kinda seemed very American-y, no offense :p ). I was continuously conquering the world, but doing it for the greater good as my Civilization was technologically vastly superior to everyone else. I see a land that's hardly worked with small population numbers producing hardly anything, I conquer it, in no time the land is more productive than ever, railroads cover the entire country, cities blossom into huge metropolises actually producing useful stuff. Thing is, because the foreign populations are always less happy, before I do anything, I turn them all into Workers, draining the city's population to 1 and then slowly populate them with my society leaving only a tiny fraction of the original one in the newly conquered cities (and even that tiny part eventually gets assimilated over time). Still, hard to argue with results, in the end you get one global government that keeps the entire world happy, produces everything needed and more and never wages any wars (heck, the way I waged wars ensured none of my civilian population ever saw any real warfare or any major military losses, again the American playstyle :p ).

Of course, taking the humanity into the calculation, it all falls apart rather quickly in a "too high a price to pay" and of course there's the ultimate loss of all the things that make different cultures unique etc. So don't get me wrong, not advocating fascism, just saying, in an "end justifies the means" sort of way, it's not without any pro arguments.

Anyway, back to the show, the whole thing with the faces, no offense Bob, but got a feeling it'll wear out and fast... there's very few of them and dunno, to me at least, they're not really awesome, I'm far happier just seeing random pictures like you do here 50% of the time anyway that makes Escape to the Movies visually fantastic. But hey, worst case scenario I can still listen to it, so on the whole, show good, just imo think about the visuals.
 

Vrex360

Badass Alien
Mar 2, 2009
8,379
0
0
Epicurus said:
I really liked this video! Fantastic work, Bob.

Oh, and every who's saying "Nuh uh, the covenant are bad because they're trying to kill everything, not because they're diverse!", you're missing the point. Destroying the universe is the plot device used to convey their evil nature in the game's narrative. You're still dealing with a multi-ethnic religious culture fighting a racially homogeneous militaristic culture, and that carries its own subtext whichever way it's portrayed.
However, you have to realize that this is a game. Games need various enemy types to make gameplay stimulating, it would get boring if it was just Elites over and over again. Hell, that argument could be given to any game with aliens in it, seriously name one game that has aliens in it where there is only ever one race and one enemy model.
Varying enemy types are the reason for the Covenant races, Grunts are the little ones, the Jackals are the snipers, the Elites are the regular Warriors, the Hunters are the big ones (tank class as it were), the Brutes are the 'new regular warriors' and the drones are the flying ones.
The main reason, I think anyway, that no one ever thought about this was that prior to Bob's rant, it went without saying that many different enemy types were expected to make games more interesting. Hell, you could use Mario in this exact same context, arguing that Mario is against multiculturalism because the 'pure racial force of the Mushroom people' opposes the 'multinational forces of Bowsers Kooper Trooper and Goomba army'.
Allies need to look similar to distinguish from enemies and enemies need to be diverse to make it interesting.

Plus even though they are working together, they aren't equals. The grunts are treated as canon fodder and are rarely even allowed to have a name or any form of identity. In fact if you look into the way the Covenant races interact with each other and the way the racial caste systems work, it's actually more like fascism then the UNSC.
The UNSC don't segregate entire people into various set duties and levels of respect based on what race they are, the Covenant did.

Plus, Bob manages to conveniently 'forget' that in Halo 2 you take the role of the Arbiter and over the course of the story, forge an alliance with the humans. After which, the two races that had spent so long in war put aside their differences for a common goal that they both shared, and gained a respect for each other. Fighting alongside each other in Halo 3 and being allies as a result of that.
The story makes it clear that both sides needed to work together and that it was having diversity and working alongside each other that ultimately allowed them to win. If they had remained enemies, both sides would have been wiped out, but fighting alongside each other and developing a respect for each other, they won.

So basically, diversity in their armies is what saved both sides in the end.

Instead of covering this part that overthrows his argument into the mud completely, he instead goes on a tangent about blue eyes. Ignoring that blue eyes had been a symbol of heroism and bold heroic characteristics long before it was considered to be the ideal norm by a crazy dictator.
Plus I notice he seemed to use it as a way to cut off from all that stuff about how the extended media acknowledges the amorality of the Spartan project so he didn't have to say anything to compromise his point. But that's just me.

As for the "reading too much into it" crowd. I don't think we read enough into things like these. Just because a story isn't meant to be complex doesn't mean it doesn't carry with it a ton of insight into the nature of the author's (and perhaps humanity's) psychology.
But like I said, it's a game so fascist undertones we certainly not intentional. And considering there were plenty of other games that have the same basic set up (various aliens, only one humanity etc) it only feels like an immature cry for attention that he mentions Halo out of all of them. Because anyone who knows his videos knows he notoriously hates Halo and insults it, and the fanbase, frequently. So doing this, as the very first episode no less, is probably the main reason he's getting such bad press.
This is a troll tactic and, unfortunately, it worked.

Just to be clear, I have respect for Bob as a movie reviewer and he seems fairly clever and funny as well, but sometimes, especially when he mentions Halo, I just want to punch him. Because he barely knows what the hell he's talking about, glossing over major plot points that any even novice fans of the game know about and then seem to dismiss the Halo community rudely while proclaiming some level of smug self superiority.

Seriously, in this episode alone he used a damn lol cat to represent our community and said sarcastically 'how many people play this game for the context?' This is a community that has been insulted by him many many times, that alone might be a reason for why they are pissed at him.

Also I most certainly agree we need to look deep into things, because we learn a lot about the world around us by doing so and indeed some forms of human psychology. But I just think it's something that we have to be careful of or else we come across as people overreacting and looking like panicky people in doing so.
This is going to be a long example so get comfortable:

For instance I read an article by a woman who was very upset by the Jack (Subject Zero) romance in Mass Effect 2, arguing that it demeaned women. Basically she said that for depicting Jack showing a soft vulnerable side when Shepard shows her some love and for crying while he cuddles her gently, it was some kind of variation of a rape fantasy. That it was implying that the game and the audience seem to think that strength in women is unacceptable and that the only thing more sexy than a tough woman was one that was submissive and vulnerable.
I bring this up because certain aspects about her argument can be called true, for instance I found it rather annoying that Jack had to become so fragile whereas Shepard remains so passive the whole way through (I figure if someone is baring their soul to you you can at least show a little more emotion) and it is rather annoying that a woman need become so fragile so fast.

And yet the rest just sounded like the work of a debatebly insane misandronistic fanatically pro female rights advocate who still thinks she lives in the nineteenth century, seriously here's a quote:

"You have Subject Zero (not so badass now, eh?) trembling, weeping and wordless, acknowledging that Shepard has a deeper understanding of her needs than she does, admitting tacitly that the person she has become is little more than a façade for her truly vulnerable, properly feminine self. And then she lies down, passive and submissive, her arms stretched over her head while Shepard heals her with his mighty mancock."

Apart from the fact that all I saw in that scene was her smiling having finally found someone who loved her and cared about her (Honestly Shepard being male in this instance I didn't even think was an issue), and that I'm not even sure they actually had sex in that scene, the woman writing this also neglects to mention (or even acknowledge) the fact that a similar romance happens for a lady Shepard to in the form of Thane Krios who starts the game being sold as a badass assassin with no conscience or ethics going around killing people.
Then his romance ending with him in tears and helpless and vulnerable while the Lady Shepard, clearly in power, comforts him over the tragedies of his own life.

So basically with this in mind, one could consider the Jack romance with Shepard really more just an example of her being vulnerable and emotional at finding someone who cares about her and weighing her emotional problems on them, just as one can with Thane as a female Shepard.
And yet, because such aspects might contradict her theories and analysis or at least cause things to be less concrete, it doesn't get mentioned and the woman continues to maintain that Mass Effect 2 is an example of hating women.

So my point to this is that this woman does have a few points present that actually require looking into, but in the process she has come across as an alarmist and her complete ignorance of any point devices or even elements that might go against it makes it very clear that she's either biased towards a conclusion or just ignorant of the majority of the subject matter. Plus her angry overreactions are not helping anything. Nor her apparent hatred of the male gender.

So yes, over analysis is not in and of itself a bad thing. It can help create new ways of looking at things and understanding our perception of the world. However, it must be done fairly with all points addressed to come to a conclusion, rather than just rooting out one or two pieces that you can use to help your case while overlooking everything else. Especially when you are notorious for having a bias against the subject matter in question.

Bob is doing the latter here, not the former. And this form of overgeneralizing to reach an already biased conclusion is something that can actually be considered harmful to our society, as that is how concepts of racism and religious fundamentalism even get started, to some extent.

And THAT'S the Big Picture.

... Sorry, couldn't resist.


That said, Halo isn't nearly as bad at the Treyarch Call of Duty games, which appear to be an exercise in exceptionalism, with other races and political ideologies always being portrayed as eeeeeeevil compared to the "righteous might" of the American military and western democracy.
Right, now there's something we can agree on. Although it does show the amorality of your allies at points, I still thought the 'Russia invades America' thing was rather suspicious.

EDIT: Also I apologize if I came across as rude or anything like that, I don't want to cause any offense.
 

TsunamiWombat

New member
Sep 6, 2008
5,870
0
0
Father Time said:
Also I don't listen to racist and racial supremacy groups but do they really argue mixed races are all savages? This is the first I've ever heard of that.
Yeah thats Skinhead 101. It's based on the Nazist belief that the Caucasian race is descended from a race of nordic superhumans known by various colloquialisms throughout history such as the Nephilim, the Giants, etc, and that by interbreeding with the socalled "lower evolved" human strains, IE anybody whose not white, human evolution actually took a giant step back. Naturally, this has no basis in historical or scientific fact.

The irony is that they are completly wrong and the diversification of mixing races has been shown to improve the human immune systerm as well as subtly improve us in other ways. Effectivly, interracial marrying and copulation is making us EVOLVE into stronger, healthier, taller humans - closer to the Nazi ideal. Except that they aren't blonde blue eyed and white, they're ...tannish? I dunno depends who you get down with, the point is frolic outside your gene pool, it strengthens the species.
 

G-Force

New member
Jan 12, 2010
444
0
0
DRog said:
I think Bob may have looked too deep into this one. Throughout the video, he keeps saying that the spartans fighting the covenant is bad because the covenant are working for a common goal. He's missing the part where the goal is to DESTROY THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. Not the greatest thing to support. Bob is looking way too deep for subtext that isn't there. When he sees it isn't there, he makes up some white supremacy nonsense. Way to start off the series strong. I can't wait for the next one, where he compares Gordon Freeman to Hitler for trying to kill the outsiders to the human race.
And often times within the video Bob SAYS he's looking too much into it. Also I thought the Covenant was more about the eradication of humans as opposed to the entire universe? Arguing from a morality standpoint the only reason why we see them as evil is because of our point of view as humans. Meanwhile they see us as the ones being in the wrong simply because we're getting in the way of their goal.

Again Bob even says that all the stuff he sees is probably unintentional but you have to admit the live of confidential evidence is quiet astounding. Especially when he was arguing about white dominance and shows a cutscene where a Spartan's eyes turn blue.
 

bunji

New member
Nov 14, 2010
70
0
0
I... hm... wow, couldn't have said it better myself, well done Sir, you are a scholar and a gentleman.
 

ohgodalex

New member
May 21, 2009
1,094
0
0
didiusm said:
OK, was anyone else creeped out by those heads? They're not that freaky now that I've watched it a few times, but wow. Those'll be showing up in my nightmares sometime.

Other than that, great new series! I love Escape to the Movies, and I'm looking forward to hearing what Bob comes up with next.

Finally, something to look forward to on Tuesdays!
You watched that shit more than once?
 

theultimateend

New member
Nov 1, 2007
3,621
0
0
Sober Thal said:
That's so original and thought provoking.
I don't know why but every time someone brings this up as a critique for something it kills a piece of me inside.

I'm going to guess because the only thing that makes something original is that you haven't heard it before. Otherwise it's already been said, thought, or done in multiple ways.

The only exception being advances in science which are admittedly thought provoking but they are not philosophical so they don't apply to this saying.
 

emeraldrafael

New member
Jul 17, 2010
8,589
0
0
DRog said:
I think Bob may have looked too deep into this one. Throughout the video, he keeps saying that the spartans fighting the covenant is bad because the covenant are working for a common goal. He's missing the part where the goal is to DESTROY THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. Not the greatest thing to support. Bob is looking way too deep for subtext that isn't there. When he sees it isn't there, he makes up some white supremacy nonsense. Way to start off the series strong. I can't wait for the next one, where he compares Gordon Freeman to Hitler for trying to kill the outsiders to the
human race.
I think you missed the context. Yes, maybe he went too deep into it, and yes, when the soldier's eyes turn blue, he did say maybe it was too far. What he's saying is that an army of diverse, multi-species army (Kinda like a big, multi-race army), is good. On the opposite side, he's saying that a smaller same species amry where everyone is a faceless almost brainwashed mass with no real determining factors (other then Reach, where they were different colours or master chief where he is the only one that seems to not die or private johnson cause he's black and doesnt wear armour) is bad. Its the same thing that was made against Stormtroopers symbolizing the Nazi army of WW2 Germany under Hitler's rule.

Besides, who's to say the Covenant are evil. They're expanding, its really human nature. There's never been a human society that decided they wanted to stay right where they were and never wanted to move. They're just crushing formal societies. What is now England was crushed by the outer forces of Duke of Normandy, America was conquered by European settlers, Japan... well, feudal warfare and all. Every society has done this. Could you not look at the humans and spartan soldiers as the enemy, standing in the way of progress that would unify a galaxy, stopping war under a Communistic, Dictator regime? Sure, that sounds evil to those of us in Free (or semi free) nations, but when you grow up with it, it doesnt seem as bad, you adapt to the life you are living.

In short, you missed the context. Moviebob is NOT praising Hitler/Stalin/Mao like control and conquering of lands. He's Praising a multi-species (multi-ethnic in real life) army and saying that an army of identical uninteresting faceless soldiers that promote the ideal of everyone being the same and relying only on the few who are "elite" enough to be the same face in the mass is bad.
 

i7omahawki

New member
Mar 22, 2010
298
0
0
The Youth Counselor said:
Halo is a parable about noble Middle Easterners defending against the evils of European imperialism.
Now that was a hell of a lot more interesting than Bob's rant. While I don't think for a minute that Bungie intentionally designed it that way, it fits far better than any other interpretation I have seen.

As people have previously mentioned, the Covenant IS a monoculture, they have one religion, every race within the Covenant is forced to obey. The UNSC is a military organization, we don't even see the government, or the general populace. Master Chief (and a lot of the ODST's) could be aliens for all we know, we never see them.

Bob's rant was a meaningless projection of bile, if you don't like a game, don't play it, or criticize it in an interesting way. If you truly believed in what you were saying 'variety of enemies + similarity with allies = wrong/fascist/hitler' then why not bring up Mario (a game you purport to love) up to the same critique?
 

le picklez

New member
Jun 16, 2010
132
0
0
Hey, Vrex360:
I'm not going to quote your post (too long for that) but the person you quoted said "Treyarch call of duty games"- Russia invading USA was from IW.

OT: I feel as if he wanted to find something bad in halo and searched hard for it. Anyone else feelin it?
 

Epicurus

New member
May 11, 2008
72
0
0
I can see your point here, and you have made it very well, especially in reference to Mass Effect 2.

The way I see the Halo thing, however, is more as a part of the greater whole that is military-focused science fiction. Whatever way you look at it, there is a pervasive theme throughout many science fiction stories that portray idealised military institutions of human beings triumphing over the forces of alien cultures, and Halo is a good example of this.

I understand entirely that the reason the covenant are so varied is because to be fighting one particular enemy would be an incredibly boring game, but I find that regardless of this, from a certain point of view Halo is almost a caricature of these themes.

Take a look at Stargate SG-1 for another example of this sort of thing. A military organisation as depicted through idealised characters triumphs over the forces of alien cultures. That said, SG-1 is much, much worse than Halo in this regard (don't get me wrong, I love watching the show) but the number of times the military personnel have gone up against civilian organisations that are always "out to serve nobody but themselves", elected officials and have touted the whole "the people don't need to know things for their own safety" bullshit (this sort of thinking is what brings us ridiculous anti-terrorism legislation) is rather disturbing.

What I'm trying to get at is that this is a strong theme in a lot of science fiction, not just in Halo, and it bears thinking about. Although, perhaps not in such strong terms as MovieBob has seen fit to do so.

Vrex360 said:
Plus even though they are working together, they aren't equals. The grunts are treated as canon fodder and are rarely even allowed to have a name or any form of identity. In fact if you look into the way the Covenant races interact with each other and the way the racial caste systems work, it's actually more like fascism then the UNSC.
You do have a very good point here, since fascism is ultimately a political ideology based on collective identity and strength through organised violence, so the Covenant can be pointed to very easily as a theocratic fascist entity.

That said, in a slightly more abstract (and probably purely unintentional) way, the Spartans are also a good example of this. However, this is because military organisations are all inherently fascist from the beginning. This doesn't mean that they're always under the control of governments that employ that particular method of politics, what it does mean is rather obvious. Military organisations are all about collective identity, strong hierarchy and strength through organised violence. In fact, that's the whole point of a military to start with.

Bob missed the point a bit, I reckon, by thinking the Spartans were some kind of unique example of this, whereas whenever we depict military personnel as the heroes of a story, we will inevitably carry these themes with us (however unintentional that may be).

The question I'm trying to get across is: "Why do we so often pick military heroes to tell a story?" I don't really have an answer to that, but I think it deserves some further discussion. Although, perhaps not in the comments to an internet video. :p

Vrex360 said:
EDIT: Also I apologize if I came across as rude or anything like that, I don't want to cause any offense.
Don't worry, it didn't, and I hope my posts don't either. :)