The Big Picture: Copywrong

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shirkbot

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hiei82 said:
Less so. Copyright law gives exclusive production rights to the creator of the art for a set period of time (Life of the author + 70 years I think). Even if the book becomes as famous and popular as the Bible, the creator maintains ownership until the time period is up. It's similar to Patent Law in this respect.

Trademark law behaves differently. You can maintain a Trademark indefinitely (making changes if you like), but the moment the Trademark becomes ubiquitous (like how Kleenex came to mean facial tissues), ownership of the title becomes impossible (since the Trademark has become a word more than a title). That's why Google was so angry when Sweden tried to add "ungoogleable" to their dictionary.
Thanks for clarifying. I think my confusion is caused by that recent article where some analyst mentioned copyright holders could void their ability to make legal claims by granting rights for Youtubers to use their materials in things like Let's Plays. I wasn't really 100% clear on the details.
 
Jan 27, 2012
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Not directly related, but somewhat, so let me say it (also I know that MovieBob is a Marvel fanboy so I would like to know what he thinks about it).

Marvel used my gameplay footage on the Avengers movie. The studio (or someone responsable for getting the footage) copied it straight from Youtube, no mention, no nothing. The clip in question is the joke about the man playing Galaga, that gameplay is mine, so technically I am that man playing Galaga.

Album with some screencap comparisons: http://imgur.com/a/WhHBB
My video: http://youtu.be/JnNthHB0FdE?t=2m41s
Clip from the Avengers: http://youtu.be/t4Fy6AUMv8E?t=14s
 

Monkeh

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To REALLY go off topic, thanks for using the Death of Major Peirson to illustrate the War of Independence. Granted, the scene it shows a fight between the British and French that happened 3500 miles away from the US, but it's nice to see my hometown get a mention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Major_Peirson,_6_January_1781
 

hiei82

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Aug 10, 2011
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shirkbot said:
hiei82 said:
Less so. Copyright law gives exclusive production rights to the creator of the art for a set period of time (Life of the author + 70 years I think). Even if the book becomes as famous and popular as the Bible, the creator maintains ownership until the time period is up. It's similar to Patent Law in this respect.

Trademark law behaves differently. You can maintain a Trademark indefinitely (making changes if you like), but the moment the Trademark becomes ubiquitous (like how Kleenex came to mean facial tissues), ownership of the title becomes impossible (since the Trademark has become a word more than a title). That's why Google was so angry when Sweden tried to add "ungoogleable" to their dictionary.
Thanks for clarifying. I think my confusion is caused by that recent article where some analyst mentioned copyright holders could void their ability to make legal claims by granting rights for Youtubers to use their materials in things like Let's Plays. I wasn't really 100% clear on the details.
Which is true.

The thing about copyright law is that its up to the owner of the rights to enforce. No country spends time looking for people braking patent and copyright law; they just expect owners to bring cases of infringement to them. As a result - for very complex reasons I don't fully understand - is that with copyrights, what you do with these rights has to be enforced evenly or the country will void the rights. Think of it this way.

Two people post videos of The Hobbit. 1 video is just the movie as is. The other is the movies with commentary by the watcher. Lets say this second video explains why The Hobbit is the best movie ever, scene by scene, and is responsible for 90% of people going to the theater to see the movie. Because Copyright is a restrictive right (i.e. it gives exclusive rights to the owner of the copyright holder), both videos are guilty of playing the entire movie. Thus, no matter how much the makers of the Hobbit like the 2nd video, if they enforce their right on the first video, they must enforce it on the 2nd video to the best of their ability.

Now, there are ways around this by giving licenses to others, but if these licenses are given for free, then everyone must be able to get them for the same amount. It's a catch 22 and there's not a good way out of it within the current legal system. Even with the changes to Patent/Copyright law back in March/April; this issue remains.

Basically, copyright law does some good and some bad and its difficult to solve the problem.
 

shirkbot

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medv4380 said:
The YouTubers are King George in this situation.

They Copyright Laws didn't just stop being enforced by the RIAA, and others.

YouTubers were blatantly violating the Laws, and their Networks were attempting to abuse Fair Use laws that are really intended for Non-Profit uses. Yea, criticism can be profitable, but not paying the royalties on a clip of AC/DC music slipped into a GTA V review is breaking the rules. The blatant violation of the rules, the refusal to negotiate licencing, and the failure of the youtube networks to actually pay the royalties is what got the networks bot free scanning taken away.
But that's the problem, this isn't a blatant violation. This is a huge legal gray area because the last update to the law was the DMCA, which has gone unchanged since it was passed in 1998. Things like Youtube, streaming, and even the idea of capturing live footage from video games was just the fevered dream of some tech geek. You have a point in that the clip of AC/DC is still under copyright, but the problem is how do you manage stuff like this? That clip was licensed to Rockstar, who knew it would end up on Youtube, and does that brief clip of music mean the entire video, which can be anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour, needs to come down?
 

medv4380

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Feb 26, 2010
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the hidden eagle said:
medv4380 said:
The YouTubers are King George in this situation.

They Copyright Laws didn't just stop being enforced by the RIAA, and others.

YouTubers were blatantly violating the Laws, and their Networks were attempting to abuse Fair Use laws that are really intended for Non-Profit uses. Yea, criticism can be profitable, but not paying the royalties on a clip of AC/DC music slipped into a GTA V review is breaking the rules. The blatant violation of the rules, the refusal to negotiate licencing, and the failure of the youtube networks to actually pay the royalties is what got the networks bot free scanning taken away.
You trying to put all the blame on Youtubers is funny,what rules have they blatantly broken?You know what?Maybe everyone should start paying royalties for everything they use including computers,clothes,and cars,because that's the kind of retarded logic you are supporting right now.
The most egress violations came from the Fullscreen Network. There was an attempt to reconcile the issue by negotiating a licence, and payment of royalties with Warner Music, and Universal Publishing back in August. Heck, even Angry Joe was caught in some of his video's using snippets of other peoples music videos that Machinama, or whoever his network is, wasn't paying royalties for him to use. The argument was from the Networks and YouTubers that it was "Fair Use" when it clearly wasn't. Because Networks and YouTubers refused to negotiate any royalty payments, or self police copyright violations like they were intended to their freedom from the bots was rescinded.
 

medv4380

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Feb 26, 2010
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shirkbot said:
You have a point in that the clip of AC/DC is still under copyright, but the problem is how do you manage stuff like this? That clip was licensed to Rockstar, who knew it would end up on Youtube, and does that brief clip of music mean the entire video, which can be anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour, needs to come down?
You actually sit down and negotiate a deal rather than spit in their faces like Fullscreen did. That's why the Networks were given time away from the bots. They were supposed to negotiate. The negotiations went no where. So here we are.
 

RJ Dalton

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hiei82 said:
Vault Citizen said:
Did King George really have much say over how the colonies were run? I thought that all came under the part of British history were the monarchy had already lost a lot of the power it once had and a lot of the day to day governing was done by what would become known as the Prime Minister (for those unfamiliar with British history we didn't just decide to have a a Prime Minister one day, the role sort of developed over time and the early prime ministers are described as such retroactively rather than through some announcement at the time)
The American Revolution occurred in that nebulous time in the middle. Parliament had the majority of the power, but the Monarchy wasn't quite the de-clawed kitten it is today. For instance, it was King George who made the deal with parliament to sign over the profits from the royal lands for the annual stipend they get now. What more, the king remained a powerful symbol in both England and the then American Colonies; in part because the King/Queen HAD been so powerful within recent cultural memory.

Still, you're generally correct; Parliament had the real power.
And, as people are quick to forget, Parliament was being bribed constantly by the precursor companies to the giant corporations, like the East India Trading Company. The laws weren't just being changed to the detriment of the colonists, they were being changed to their detriment for the benefit of a self-interested wealthy elite who were not elected to power and should not have had any say how laws are made.

My, how history repeats itself.
 

Entitled

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The only ones who believe that Copyright is being "abused" right now, are those who don't know copyright history.

Copyright is perfectly fulfilling it's original purpose, that is, censoring Free Speech and securing publisher monopolies. [http://questioncopyright.org/promise]


I think Bob's point is misguided about franchises being unoriginal because of too much Fair Use. It is copyright, that creates publisher-exploitable "franchises" and "IPs" in the first place. If everyone would be allwoed to make crappy spiderman movies, there would be a lot less motivation for anyone to make Spiderman movies to exploit a specific artificially scarce content type.

Crappy artists make crappy stories whether in pre-existing or new universes. You can't legally enforce artistic value, but great artists could only make greater stories if they would be free to create whatever they want.
 

Lono Shrugged

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I agree, the whole situation is as simple as a black and white historical metaphor where the winners wrote the history books.
 

shirkbot

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medv4380 said:
shirkbot said:
You have a point in that the clip of AC/DC is still under copyright, but the problem is how do you manage stuff like this? That clip was licensed to Rockstar, who knew it would end up on Youtube, and does that brief clip of music mean the entire video, which can be anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour, needs to come down?
You actually sit down and negotiate a deal rather than spit in their faces like Fullscreen did. That's why the Networks were given time away from the bots. They were supposed to negotiate. The negotiations went no where. So here we are.
Considering the sheer number of networks, I find it highly unlikely they all just refused to negotiate. Not to mention, this was done without anyones' consent. Youtube basically flipped a switch and suddenly huge amounts of content were flagged. Much of which was legitimate, like Angry Joe's material. But, if we must negotiate then there are some major questions:
And who exactly are we supposed to negotiate with? The RIAA? The Publishers? The Developers? The artists proper? Who are we talking to, and how do we ensure fair negotiation? And how do you determine what must be negotiated considering it's all mashed together? Remember, entire videos are getting flagged for what might only be a few seconds of content. It's not just a simple matter of "negotiation".
 

LaoJim

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Vault Citizen said:
Did King George really have much say over how the colonies were run? I thought that all came under the part of British history were the monarchy had already lost a lot of the power it once had and a lot of the day to day governing was done by what would become known as the Prime Minister
You're right up to a point. The Civil War a hundred years earlier had established that it was parliament that would win in any serious conflict and after the monarchy back after Cromwell died it's power was significantly curtailed by the bill of rights.

The thing was all the monarchs during that time were foreigners or women and were not in such a position to rock the boat. George's grandfather and great-grandfather (Georges II and I) hadn't been born in Britain, weren't very good at speaking English, didn't understand British politics much and so were content to let Parliament get on with things. George III was different as he had been born in England and had very definite ideas about what an Enlightenment monarch should be. He continuously tried to assert his authority over parliament, especially by appointing his own men to be Prime Minister, even when those men didn't have the necessary support. George was particularly involved in American policy and against making compromises with the rebellious colonials and the loss of America damaged his personal reputation enormously and put Parliament most definitely back in charge.
 

Robot-Jesus

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medv4380 said:
The YouTubers are King George in this situation.

They Copyright Laws didn't just stop being enforced by the RIAA, and others.

YouTubers were blatantly violating the Laws, and their Networks were attempting to abuse Fair Use laws that are really intended for Non-Profit uses. Yea, criticism can be profitable, but not paying the royalties on a clip of AC/DC music slipped into a GTA V review is breaking the rules. The blatant violation of the rules, the refusal to negotiate licencing, and the failure of the youtube networks to actually pay the royalties is what got the networks bot free scanning taken away.

After the French and Indian war the British government signed a number of treaties with the French and the Indians defining what expansion would be tolerated. Which the colonists immediately ignored because they didn't think the English were capable of enforcing those laws. Also the british government passed a series of tariffs to help pay for the war they fought on the colonists behalf. Which the colonists also ignored because Britain seemed so far away.

and for years they got away with it because Britain couldn't afford to do anything about it.


After a point The Crown decided to do something about this. So they abolished all tariffs, except the one on tea, and began enforcing that one remaining tariff. This was to demonstright that while they didn't really want to make life difficult for the colonists, the rule of law must be maintained. Thing is that in that time the colonies had effectively been self governing and they had gotten used to that, so things came to blows.


It is actually an apt metaphor on Bob's part. Especially since the "bad guys" aren't really doing too much wrong, but they might still end up on the wrong end of history anyway.
 

hermes

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deth2munkies said:
tl;dr: Youtube's content-ID system is the real problem, the DMCA is flawed and drastically needs updating, but would cover reviews under fair use.


I'm not going to claim to be a copyright expert either, but I am a first year law student that has discussed this topic with people that are. You're half right in the video: copyright as a concept was largely codified as it is today in the early 20th century, however, what we're dealing with now, on the internet, is the Digital Millenium Copyright Act which was largely passed in 1998 and amended later (though I can't remember when, probably 2004, but Wikipedia has failed me). But the DMCA isn't even the problem in this case, as all the reviews (and I imagine some of the other content) are covered EXPLICITLY by the fair use exception.

The problem in this case is Youtube's content ID system. Many companies that were cited as taking down content (see Riot Games, Deep Silver, etc.) have said they had nothing to do with it and will restore anything that people bring to them. What happened recently was they started applying this content ID system to PARTNERS in addition to random accounts. So people that made their living on Youtube were getting their videos flagged. That's why it's such a huge deal right now.

There are many problems with the DMCA, but the Youtube copyright scandal highlights one of them: it's damn near impossible to punish excessive and erroneous takedown notices. In order to do so, you have to take them to court, then prove, at trial, through a preponderance of the evidence that they did not have the copyright to that work and that they KNEW they didn't have the copyright to that work. You cannot take them to court for repeated violations of fair use.

On the direct matter at hand, my opinion is that Youtube needs to clean up their system. They should have a team dedicated to investigating copyright claims against partners at the very least, so they can catch fair use before this kind of stuff happens. Game and movie reviews should be protected and should be allowed to run clips of b-reel and trailers with impunity so long as they are doing it for the purposes of criticism.

The stickier point is let's players. On the one hand, it's arguble that their commentary is transformative and a large base of their audience comes to see them and not the games, however, an exhaustive (through the whole game, all options) let's play can definitely damage the saleability of a game and might exceed the scope of fair use. It's similar to reading an entire novel out and recording yourself doing it, what you're making is a bootleg audiobook and that definitely exceeds fair use. A good example would be pretty much any game by Telltale: if you run through Walking Dead or any of the Sam and Maxes, you reveal all the content to the player, there's very little gained by actually playing the game. Different, perhaps, from things like I Wanna be the Guy, Starcraft, and other competitive or challenge-driven titles where you can't get the experience solely from watching them. It's a legal question that hasn't been answered yet, and I think it's one that can only be answered inter-medium and not by over-arching legislation.

I think we might be in luck, though. The house recently passed the Innovation Act [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/12/05/the-house-votes-on-patent-reform-today-heres-what-you-need-to-know/] which comes down hard on patent trolls by making frivolous litigation very expensive. While this doesn't affect copyright at all, it indicates a trend that Congress is taking notice of the deficiencies in Intellectual Property Law and is doing something about it. We can only hope a followup to the DMCA (that isn't SOPA-esque) is what's next on the agenda.
I quote this to give it more exposure because he explains an important point a lot deeper that I could:

The issue with this YouTube situation is not about little guys vs big corporations. While many of the corporations are being shortsighted for a long time, many of them have said they have nothing to do with most of the videos being pulled out. The problem is that YouTube is extremely open and defensive about copyright laws. Basically, if I report a video on behalf of a corporation, YouTube will put it down, even if I can't prove I have any rights to act on behalf of said corporation.

That, combined with the new automatic system YouTube implemented, where a claim would extend automatically to other videos with similar content, has created hundreds of claims on videos that, until recently, were considered fair use, even when the owners of that copyright didn't even saw the videos.

The most baffling case I have heard of this issue recently was the case of Johnathan Blow having gameplay of his own game being removed because of a claim by "Sony". This was over the line because a) Sony doesn't have copyright rights to content of The Witness and they claim they didn't file the complain and b) Johnathan Blow is the creator of The Witness, and the owner of the content rights. So, the new YouTube AI flagged and remove content published by the creator of the content only because it was gameplay...
 

Falseprophet

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hiei82 said:
The thing about copyright law is that its up to the owner of the rights to enforce. No country spends time looking for people braking patent and copyright law; they just expect owners to bring cases of infringement to them.
Ahem:

7 Charged as F.B.I. Closes a Top File-Sharing Site [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/21/technology/megaupload-indictment-internet-piracy.html]

Why is the Department of Homeland Security shutting down popular rap sites? [http://music-mix.ew.com/2010/11/30/homeland-security-rap-blog/]

I think governments have shown a willingness to play hitman on behalf of big corporate content-owners. That should be frightening.

shirkbot said:
You have a point in that the clip of AC/DC is still under copyright, but the problem is how do you manage stuff like this? That clip was licensed to Rockstar, who knew it would end up on Youtube, and does that brief clip of music mean the entire video, which can be anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour, needs to come down?
The next logical question is, if I take a video of my friends playing frisbee in the park, and someone in the background happens to be blasting the same AC/DC track from a portable stereo, and then I upload it to YouTube, is my personal video going to be taken down?


Akichi Daikashima said:
Also, I don't think that the Indepence War stands as an analogy; the colonists refused to pay taxes, even when doing so was possible, so the English had no choice except to use force.

And it wasn't as if this was done specifically to America, all colonies were taxated to help in the war effort, it's just that America thought itself untouchable.
To clarify, Britain's national debt was enormous after the Seven Years' War, part of which had been fought in defense of the American colonies [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_and_Indian_War], and they tried to pass a share of the debt to the colonies the war had been fought over. And it was a mere fraction of the taxes British residents were paying--the vast majority of whom also didn't have representation. Don't get me wrong, I think the outcome of the American Revolution was ultimately a good thing that eventually led to modern liberal democracy. But the initial grievances do seem kind of petty compared to the high ideals the likes of Franklin and Paine espoused.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Calling copyright infringement stealing is inaccurate, an appeal to emotion, and damaging to any sort of cogent discourse.

Also, the guys creating the next Bug Bunny ARE being impacted, so that's a really bad argument.

Vault Citizen said:
Did King George really have much say over how the colonies were run?
You're right on this, but I think the broad strokes are the more important point.

Also, one could probably draw a comparison between the financial motives behind each (though it's not a perfect parallel by any means)

Akichi Daikashima said:
The Content ID thing is not about game publishers wanting to obscure criticism.
Maybe it's because I've got a major case of the flu, but I thought his point was how it could lead to that exact premise, not that this was the current point.

shirkbot said:
This is a huge legal gray area because the last update to the law was the DMCA, which has gone unchanged since it was passed in 1998.
DMCA has seen legal updates since 1998. Then again, it was a decidedly anti-technology law in the first place, so any major revision would go the other way.

That clip was licensed to Rockstar, who knew it would end up on Youtube, and does that brief clip of music mean the entire video, which can be anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour, needs to come down?
Even Rockstar didn't license absolute control over the music as it pertains to their game. They can't even use it to promote the game unless specifically licensed. I've seen trailers for movies on the DVD of tat movie where the original music has been replaced. They do this primarily for licensing. What Rockstar knows is irrelevnt here and has little bearing on whether or nto a third party can distribute it.

However, yes. It's wrong that a ten second clip can invalidate everything.

But I do also want to point out this isn't a legal issue. It's a Google issue. A YouTube issue. and what you were responding to:

medv4380 said:
YouTubers were blatantly violating the Laws, and their Networks were attempting to abuse Fair Use laws that are really intended for Non-Profit uses.
(emphasis mine)

Is patently false.

There is a wide breadth of allowances for profit in terms of fair use doctrine and it's been upheld in court.