The Big Picture: Dumbsday, Part 2 - The Reign of the Supermen

[JimB]

It's a shame Mr. Chipman didn't have time to get into how Superboy wasn't really a clone of Superman, but only a clone of as much Kryptonian DNA as the evil cloning facility Cadmus could understand plus half the DNA of Cadmus's evil boss, except years later it would turn out (read: be retconned) that the evil boss thing was a lie and the human half was actually Lex Luthor...

 

[Ishal]

One thing I don't understand, why is the fact that Superman was punched/beaten to death such a bad thing?

I understand the part about the guy who killed him being boring and basically a nobody. I get that. But isn't getting into fist fights with other really powerful guys/gals/things the bread and butter of Superman? I mean sure, there are other bad guys with the kryptonite and stuff like Lex Luthor. But I remember he got a big suit to fight Superman with at one point. I think Braniac did at one point as well. I'm no comics fan, so I'm likely missing a bunch of stuff. However I do remember watching lots of DC cartoons as a kid. Lobo, Darkseid, Metallo, Bizaro, Zod and tons of others I'm probably forgetting were basically all fist fights.

Maybe I'm missing the point.

But holy cow this comics are weird. Like... the only other medium with continuity so tangled and screwed up I can think of is Soap Operas. Even then I doubt it's so strange as comics.

 

[gorfias]

One thing I don't understand, why is the fact that Superman was punched/beaten to death such a bad thing?

I agree with what Movie Bob stated in part one: there were so many great, meaningful stories they could have told culminating with the "death" of Superman. I read this back in the day and went, "huh? that sucked."

It's like comparing the meaning of existence sort of stories in "The Watchmen" with stories about whether Thor is or is not stronger than Hulk.

I couldn't help but chuckle at the picture of Nicholas Cage as Superman.

They really did try to have Tim Burton use Cage for a new Superman movie after Burton's Batman success.

They made a documentary about it. It was going to be weird but maybe, in its own way, not as bad as Superman Returns or Man of Steel.


We should do a poll about who wants "Death of Superman" or not. Me? Not. The comic book was such a big let down.

 

[Trishbot]

Has anyone mentioned the Max Landis short film on the Death & Return of Superman? He covers most of the same points Bob does... It's a pretty good watch.

Especially with Elijah Wood as Cyborg Superman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PlwDbSYicM

Mandy Moore makes a decent Lois too.

 

[Vausch]

Wait, I thought the idea of trying new things for Superman was the result of that Red and Blue Supermen idea?

SHSHHSHSHSHSSHHH!

We do not talk about that. That did not happen. The only time a red and blue Superman existed was an elseworld from 1963 where they made everything perfect.

When it came to death of Superman, I had to say I actually thought the fight against Doomsday was a good concept in terms of how it was drawn. I liked the idea of each page getting bigger and having fewer panels as each blow was thrown, resulting in a final, epic final strike that puts them both down. Unfortunately I didn't like the execution. Lois getting within 2.5 meters of two beings that are creating shockwaves strong enough to shatter glass with each punch? A creature that kills for fun and is causing Superman to bleed? And the constant exposition! Shut up and just draw it as a fight!

 

[orangeapples]

Doomsday's origins is just as dumb. I hope there is a part 3 to walk everyone through just how silly it all is.

 

[PunkRex]

I remember Superman getting 'offed' twice in the Justice League series, some puppet master or toy maker villain zapped him to an alt dimension while in another ep Doomsday did actually show up and they had a fight in a volcano or something, still not as confusing as this shizz.

 

[maximara]

And Bob wins the internet today for the Kids in the Hall reference.

I'm surprised that moviebob didn't mention Superman: Doomsday from 2007 which was a basically watered down animated version of both Death and Reign together or the Radio drama Superman: Doomsday & Beyond! (Superman Lives! in the US) that BBC5 did.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

I just also remembered they did an animated version of the death of Superman, titled "Superman Doomsday." Bruce Timm proved once again he could tell better stories with DC's characters than the majority of DC comic's writing staff, and made it actually work. While the fight was pretty much the same (which looked much better in his "Timmverse" style than the "faux-Liefeld" designs they used).

Anyway, instead of bringing four Supermen into the mix, their is only one replacement. It is a clone of Superman by Lex Luther (who partly clones Supes to have a Superman under his control, and partly to play out his "I beat up Superman" desires), who has all of Superman's idea of Truth and Justice, but lacking the sense of the "American way." This means it breaks the one Rule Superman holds dear.

It was a far more interesting exploration of the premise and the character than the comics.

 

[D.Strormer]

While you are totally right out the stupidity of it all, I do remember really liking the Eradicator Superman, which is amusing since I really don't care for Superman all that much. That's probably why I liked him, honestly. He just wasn't even a little bit Superman. Then again, I'm a Green Lantern fan, specifically Kyle Rayner, so take me for what I am, I suppose.

 

[Raesvelg]

One of the rare moments of levity experienced last year when we were packing up the local bookstore (and my long-term place of employment) after we lost our lease was finding probably about a hundred copies each of the early "Reign of the Supermen" titles. Still in their original box from Diamond Comic Distributors, twenty years later.

Good lord those were awful. Quite literally couldn't give them away. On the up side, paper is recyclable.

 

[ace_of_something]

Well, at least the evil Superboy and Cyborg Superman (who I really feel should've changed his name at this point) Were really cool in 'Blackest Night'

 

[Scars Unseen]

Also I have to ask, Bob, is there ANYTHING you like or even deem passable that existed in the 90s, which seems to be just a decade long entertainment sinkhole in your eyes?

I'm not Bob, but there were a few good comic storylines in the decade. The ones that come immediately to mind are the X-Team crossover stories(there were a lot of those) Fatal Attractions [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_Attractions_(comics)] and X-Cutioner's Song [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Cutioner's_Song], both of which were pretty good reads and had long lasting consequences for at least some of the characters involved. Of course, the latter had Rob Liefeld drawing the art for one of the titles, so that takes away from some of it, but overall, the stories themselves are good.

 

[Saltyk]

Didn't I hear at one point that Doomsday was going to be in Batman Versus Superman? I'm certain I did... So... Bob will almost certainly hate it if they try to shoehorn this story in. Though, I am not above expecting it to be a just plain bad movie.

Also, this all sounds really confusing. There's a reason I never really got into comics, I suppose.

 

[xaszatm]

I gotta be honest, none of what you described in this video or part 1 sounded that particularly bad to me, in fact it sounded pretty boss. Of course I don't actually read comics so I guess that makes my opinions less than worthless, but I just felt I needed to say that after watching both videos. Well okay, that reborn superman did look like a dumb punisher wanna be, and that mullet was way too much, but other than that you only made me more interested in the death of superman.

Also I have to ask, Bob, is there ANYTHING you like or even deem passable that existed in the 90s, which seems to be just a decade long entertainment sinkhole in your eyes?

I'm pretty sure he's listed Watchmen, The Dark Knight Returns, and Starman from the 90's as great comics. And they are wonderful comics from that era.

 

[Impossibilium]

I gotta be honest, none of what you described in this video or part 1 sounded that particularly bad to me, in fact it sounded pretty boss. Of course I don't actually read comics so I guess that makes my opinions less than worthless, but I just felt I needed to say that after watching both videos. Well okay, that reborn superman did look like a dumb punisher wanna be, and that mullet was way too much, but other than that you only made me more interested in the death of superman.

Also I have to ask, Bob, is there ANYTHING you like or even deem passable that existed in the 90s, which seems to be just a decade long entertainment sinkhole in your eyes?

I'm pretty sure he's listed Watchmen, The Dark Knight Returns, and Starman from the 90's as great comics. And they are wonderful comics from that era.

Ummm ... not to invalidate your point or anything, because I'm sure Bob doesn't hate everything about the 90s, but both Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen are from the 80s.

They heavily influenced what happened in the 90s, though. Everyone wanted to capitalize on the popularity of those books, and thus made everything dark and gritty, while usually missing the point that they were popular not because they were dark, but because they were well-written commentaries on society and caricatures of current superheroes of the time.

On topic: I actually kinda liked the whole "Death and Return of Superman" story at the time. But then again, I've always been a sucker for backstories and continuities, even some of the more convoluted ones, which is why I like comics so much. It probably also helped that I read most of the story in trade paperback after the fact, only collecting the first issues of initial "Reign", so I wasn't really waiting a whole year to find out that neither of the "Supermen" we're going to be the real deal.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

After last weeks episode i tried to read up on Doomsday himself. Oh my god! Crap like this is the reason i stopped reading comics.

You're missing out, Archie is a Zombie now

 

[KiramidHead]

After last weeks episode i tried to read up on Doomsday himself. Oh my god! Crap like this is the reason i stopped reading comics.

You're missing out, Archie is a Zombie now

And Sabrina the Teenage Witch is Cthulhu's bride.

On topic: I've only read The Death of Superman arc, and I enjoyed it back then. I never got around to the other two trades, though, but I've been meaning to for ages, now.

 

[Willstown]

I didn't really read much Superman 1st time round, but picked up the Death of Superman Omnibus hefty tome last year.....Bob's bang on it's weird weird weird.

Some interesting stuff in there but mostly the book is more a curio of a big DC event rather than a decent story.

Agree with the previous posters that Cyborg Superman was way more interesting in the Green Lantern tales.

The Supermullet was odd, but after picking up the Grant Morrison JLA volumes, blue electric superman is even weirder

 

[tzimize]

I couldn't help but chuckle at the picture of Nicholas Cage as Superman. If WB people from that time are still around like Bob says, I wonder if that means the new Batman vs Superman/Dawn of Justice/whatever the fuck they're calling it is going to feature a fight with a giant spider...

Hehehehehe....oh man. I really cant imagine why. One of the higher ups must have been tripping. It sounds like the kind of idea that gets stuck in your head when you do. "A giant spider...it'll be awesome, we HAVE to make it happen".