The Big Picture: Enough With The Batman Already!

[Paradoxrifts]

Batman's a normal human, that's his sell.

And that a superior intellect will always be the ultimate superpower. Every time Batman either comes to the rescue to or jeopardizes the lives of the rest of the Justice League, they're pandering to every comic book nerd convinced that their 'superior intelligence' is the main reason behind them being social outcasts.

Is Batman any more of a brain than Sherlock Holmes, The Doctor, or MacGyver? Just because a superhumanly smart character resonates with nerds doesn't make it pandering.

Pandering would be if Batman saved the day thanks his collection of Magic the Gathering or the massive slashfic library on his Bat-harddrive.

Sherlock Holmes, MacGyver and the Doctor from Doctor Who didn't routinely show up a roster of characters that include alien Jesus, human Sonic the hedgehog, green alien Jesus, Space Cop, yes mistress and the sequined-shirted sea man. Also allow me to note that of the three examples that you mentioned, the archenemies of two of them are every bit as smart and resourceful as the heroes they're up against.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Sherlock Holmes, MacGyver and the Doctor from Doctor Who didn't routinely show up a roster of characters that include alien Jesus, human Sonic the hedgehog, green alien Jesus, Space Cop, yes mistress and the sequined-shirted sea man. Also allow me to note that of the three examples that you mentioned, the archenemies of two of them are every bit as smart and resourceful as the heroes they're up against.

How about Jason and the Argonauts? The 'normal guy who leads an army of demigods' isn't exactly a new trend.

Aside from Bane and The Joker, Batman has R'as Al Ghul, a villain who has greater resources, comparable intelligence, and is still dangling the Wayne family on his strings. I'd say R'as is Batman's Moriarty.

 

[James White]

You heard it hear folk. Movie Bob has decreed that the part of Batman in the Justice League movie should be played by The Question!

 

[immortalfrieza]

Batman is pretty much the only interesting hero in DCs primary stable though!

Although Batman is really the only DC hero to interest me, I agree that WB should really pull out a couple of other superhero movies, introducing new characters, before they make another Batman. Maybe even try to make them good this time.

^This. The main problem with using other DC superheroes besides Batman is that, while all of them are interesting and relatable enough in the comics, they do a REALLY crappy job of transistioning them into other media and retaining that interest, and until they get that down Batman is all we're going to get stuck with.

Here's one immediate, easy way to make Batman new again: Adam West him the fuck up. Make him an archaic, ridiculous symbol of oldschool machismo, bring back the sexy 60s-looking ladies to fawn over and/or catwoman him, give him one of his sillier opponents to fight as a B-plot with waves of implausible goons and make everything as goofy as possible. That sounds like several gallons of fun in my book. Hell, I'll just bet that Jon Hamm would jump at the chance to be Bruce Wayne for pennies on the dollar.

They already tried that, behold the result:

...and it turned out to be one of the most universally reviled superhero movies in existance.

The fact is, nobody wants an Adam Westing Batman anymore. Hell, if superheroes as a whole wasn't so ridiculous and campy back when the actual Adam West Batman existed, we wouldn't have wanted an Adam Westing Batman back then either. The Adam West Batman is one of those things that people only thought was good because they didn't have anything better, go back and read the pre-crisis Batman comics and watch the old T.V. show now and tell me that you'll be able to even get through a single comic book or episode.

 

[Lazy Kitty]

I'll be honest...
I kind of want some more Batman...

Possibly cartoon Batman.
Preferably with a soundtrack that sounds like the animated series.

And it's definitely gonna need more Joker...
Lots and lots of Joker.

 

[immortalfrieza]

How about we put Batman out for a while and replace it with something...unexpected? No, not Superman. Flash...eh, he had a TV show that ran for a number of seasons, I think the public still kind of knows his deal. Green Lantern had his shot and dropped the green energy construct in the shape of a ball so badly it blew up a planet. To me, there's three major DC characters ripe for adaptations that have had pretty minimal exposure (relative to Batman) that I would love to see on the movie screen.

Spoiler: The First

WONDER WOMAN

Okay, yes, I know she too had a television show, but that was 40 years ago and personally I don't think it's aged very well. My thought is that people don't really know what Wonder Woman is about. To me, and I admit this might sound familiar to a lot of people, Wondey is the most compassionate person on the planet. You know, defender of the weak and downtrodden, protector of the innocent, friend to all children [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Franchise/Gamera?from=Main.Gamera], blah-dee-blee-dee-blah. However, Wondey in this day and age could be one of the few full-time superheroes. Why would Wonder Woman, arguably one of the three most trustworthy things on planet Earth (the other two being Superman and Walter Cronkite) need a secret identity, outside of to get some privacy? Maybe this is just my interpretation, but I never thought she needed one.

Spoiler: The Third

ZATANNA

Aside from being an excuse for having another insanely attractive superheroine, Zatanna is arguably the most powerful magician in the DC Universe. Plus, unlike a number of other spellcasters, she actually has to speak aloud the vocal components of her spells in addition to the somatic (hand gestures). Plus, in addition to being a superheroine, she's a stage magician, so she uses her powers to entertain in addition to kick ass. Ultimately, I think it's just a case of "I like Zatanna, I think she's an interesting character (in addition to so smoking hot you can visibly see smoke), I would like to see her get more exposure."

While I agree that MM would probably work well enough, I'm not so sure about WW and Zatanna. If they wanted to have WW and Zatanna in anything they have to fix the problems with how Superheroines and women in general are potrayed in media. That being that Superheroines are always just walking stereotypes and fanservice in any media they are in, not anything resembling real women. Superheroines are always these unrealistically beautiful supermodels that are obsessed with men, either in the overly male dependant way or because they're staw feminists that think "ALL MEN MUST DIE!!!" that are constantly thinking they're being oppressed even when they aren't (that one is sometimes truth in television sadly). In either case they're always wearing skintight everything while showing as much skin and cleavage as legally allowed while having sex scenes thrown in, mostly to get men going. I mean, I'm a man, and even I can see just how unrealistic this is, and I don't really like it.

Newflash writers of media everywhere, most women in the world are NOT supermodels and don't constantly dress in skimpy outfits. They also spend only a small portion of their time talking about men, whether it be in a positive or negative light. You want the people women watching to identify with your superheroine to get the best effect, and making them walking stereotypes and fanservice will never accomplish that. Try casting a woman who's beatiful but not ridiculously so, and write the Superheroine's dialog to be more realistic.

 

[Marowit]

I'd love to hear your breakdown of why batman is popular in our society today, a la why monster films were popular in the 50's kind of deal. I always enjoy those societal break downs so very much, and they're great food for thought.

Here's to hoping

 

[Soak]

Well, i agree to you on some points: It is very possible to overextend even on the very good franchises and Batman had "enough attention" through the last few years. DC (i'll just use it right now because it's Batmans "origin" and shorter than writing Warner Bros. all the time) should take the chance and make some other good movies without relying entirely on Batman, obviously, it would not only extend their ground, but the fundaments they could build on.

However, i think you're a bit unfair with this, in a way. You don't want some Justice League movie to suck, i wouldn't want that either and while you mentioned Marvel's Avangers as a comparison, which is necessary at this point considering the movie more or less dominated last year, but on the other hand, isn't Marvel just as flawed in this way as DC is? When i look at the Avangers i think one of them stands out very similar to Batman and who could that be? Iron Man, who else?! He is pretty much Marvel's version of Batman, some stinking rich guy with enough intelligence and self-claimed "justice" to go off and fight tons of bad guys as a hobby. Don't get me wrong, i've liked both at very equal levels and much more than many others, probably because of their similarities, qualities and flaws compared to other super-heroes. And this year another Ironman movie comes out, it will very likely shovel in another bunch of money for Marvel and he had several tv-franchises and games as well, recently even added an "anime" to that list (yeah, not going to talk about that one further).

In fact, both, Marvel and DC had respective works of success and fuc*** up some others. For that i'd like to remind you of the Green Lantern movie, or X-Men: Wolverine (though i actually had much to laugh about in this one, i saw it as an utter mess, but a funny mess at that).

Sure, now that Marvel scored big with The Avangers, DC think they "have to counter" with the Justice League or something like that and it feels kinda stupid and they will probably focus to much on Batman and so on and so forth; but hey, that's what this business is about and not just for Warner Bros., but for most of the entire business.
And in a way, this concludes to the point you got to in multiple of your last videos: What is the movie-/entertainment-industry gonna do about it? What do you wanna do about it? What is annybody gonna do about it? Right now it barely matters if a possible Justice League movie might suck or not, it will very likely get them the money they want either way and even if their "reputation" might increase or decrease a bit, by itself, the results won't change to much about the status quo, otherwise they would have to fail so damn hard, it is close to unimaginable.

That said, i just think this episode wasn't one of your bests either, but nonetheless, i'll watch the next one as well .

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

They already tried that, behold the result:

...and it turned out to be one of the most universally reviled superhero movies in existance.

The fact is, nobody wants an Adam Westing Batman anymore.

I suppose you aren't a fan of Batman Brave and The Bold? It's 70% campy Silver Age Comic weirdness, 30% and continuity nods.

 

[immortalfrieza]

They already tried that, behold the result:

...and it turned out to be one of the most universally reviled superhero movies in existance.

The fact is, nobody wants an Adam Westing Batman anymore.

I suppose you aren't a fan of Batman Brave and The Bold? It's 70% campy Silver Age Comic weirdness, 30% and continuity nods.

Figured somebody would counter with Batman Brave and the Bold. BBB is good because it calls back to the Silver Age comics and the Adam West show and the campyness of it, but at the same time it has it's serious moments to balance it out. The Silver Age comics and the AW show go completely overboard with their campyness and weirdness, and it's impossible to get invested in anything that happens as a result.

 

[maximara]

1) I actually agree with Bob that maybe it is time to put Batman away for awhile and lets try making GOOD (and I emphasis that word) movies for the other characters in the DC canon.

2) I disagree that Batman has nothing to bring to the table. The truth is that in many cases, Batman is capable of doing what the others heroes can't or won't do. Make no mistake, in that little list of super humans Bob rattled off, none of them are a half-decent detective and I wouldn't trust any of them to do any kind of real infiltration. Sorry Bob, but just because you're tired of him doesn't mean he isn't one of the most important parts of the Justice League for more then just "being Batman".

Actually, the Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onzz)'s human identity was a detective, the Barry Allen Flash was a "police scientist" (later revealed to be a forensic scientist), and the Question was an investigative journalist so they ARE half-decent detectives

Ironically even in the comics, Batman's detective skills are near the bottom of 'things we effectively use' pile and sometimes he comes off as stupid. Tower of Babel saga aka Justice League: Doom‎ case in point--you have this database on your fellow Leaguers and you do NOT have a system that tells you if the files are accessed without your knowledge in place? Let the face palming begin.

As for "real infiltration" the Martian Manhunter was doing it for decades (pretending to be a human) and via his telepathic powers could impersonate a person the crooks KNOW...something Batman could have a problem with. Wally West Flash was able to pretend to be Barry's arch enemy Professor Zoom (Reverse Flash) for a while and in the comics Superman has taken on MANY identities (usually without knowing who he really is) and fooling everyone in the process! In the comics he has been the President of the United States (Action Comics Vol 1 #371), a professional wrestler (Action Comics Vol 1 #372), Public Enemy #1 (Action Comics Vol 1 #374), and I think you get the idea. And all these successful impersonations were him without actually trying!

I think the real reason for Batman being the go to DC character is that of all the main members of the League he is the cheapest to put off in terms of abilities (his gadgets are another story).

 

[Atmos Duality]

They're going to do more Batman, because Batman is the only real blockbuster character DC has.
Outside of Batman and Robin, the films are quite successful.

But how about some of those other big hitters in DC?

Superman? We had Smallville, and it's a miracle that such insipid mediocrity went on as long as it did.
The last "good" thing (least mediocre/offensive) involving Superman that I can think of in film, was Lois and Clark.

Green Lantern? complete disaster. (and it blows my mind how badly they fucked up; I saw the cartoon movie First Flight that predated the live action film, and it was actually quite good overall)

Wonder Woman? Did you SEE the aborted pilot episode for that series? ABORTED disaster.

I don't know what it is but they just cannot seem to get anyone but Batman right.
Marvel had to salvage their film reputation to get to The Avengers, but they managed it.
(Elecktra, Daredevil, Hulk, X-Men 3, X-Men Origins: Wolverine...)

Does anyone at DC really care? I mean, they don't HAVE to make any more of those films just because Marvel is cleaning house. Given the half-hearted attempt we saw to cash in with Green Lantern (a well-funded, CGI flop), I thinking "no".

 

[Evil Smurf]

You know what? MOAR BATMAN!

I love the Batman and there should be more Batman.

 

[The Hero Killer]

I'd prefer for DC to continue their stellar releases of animated adaptations to ACTUAL comic book stories than a live action movie. Let Marvel have the live action since nobody wants to just simply adapt a already workable and complete story from the comics and make up their own stuff.

Imagine if a JL movie was adapted from the first arc from the current JL comic or if the next Batman movie was adapted from the first arc in detective comics or even the court of the owls arc. Just do what the JL cartoon did or the comic and dont worry about origin stories and characterize the heroes as you go along.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

How about Jason and the Argonauts? The 'normal guy who leads an army of demigods' isn't exactly a new trend.

Too true. You could even compare Batman's ubiquitous use of 'comic book technology' to Jason's own frequent use of magical artifacts.

Aside from Bane and The Joker, Batman has R'as Al Ghul, a villain who has greater resources, comparable intelligence, and is still dangling the Wayne family on his strings. I'd say R'as is Batman's Moriarty.

That's a fair call. But lets look at the superheroes that have managed to remain popular long enough into the current period to break out onto the silver screen and make it big in Hollywood.

Batman - A very intelligent bat-themed ninja, who masquerades as a trust fund raised billionaire playboy.
Ironman - A second-generation genius, who is not only scientist but also engineered his own suit of powered armour.
The Hulk - Yet another tormented scientific genius, who turns into a literally unstoppable green rage monster when he loses his cool.
Thor - An arrogant and obnoxious bully of an overgrown child finally grows up, who was and still is almost as thick as the hammer he wields. Spends almost all of his screen time between Thor and The Avengers trying to redeem his far more intelligent, slightly-deranged younger brother.
Spiderman - A nerdy, shy and awkward high school boy is blessed with awesome after being accidentally bitten by a special spider that grants superpowers.

Seeing a common thread that links this lot together? Only X-men (Read: Mostly Wolverine, but on the other hand they did heavily feature Magneto and Professor X who are definitely no slouches when it comes down to intelligence. But mostly Wolverine.) and Captain America really seem to buck the trend when it comes to the modern superhero genre's obsession with smarts.

 

[Britisheagle]

I am glad I am not the only one, and judging by the comments I am one of many, that is done with the Batman and would like to see any other DC character get a little of the big screen treatment. If they do a JLA film Batman will have to make an appearance so that is that sorted. Now just try make one of your other characters work, maybe reboot Green Lantern? Also the TV show Arrow seems popular so give him a feature film?

I don't know, I just loved the JLA comics growing up, especially Kingdom Come, and would love to see a film that could recreate the same feeling. But at this point I feel Batman is being milked and am quite frankly getting tired of him.

 

[shadowmagus]

1) I actually agree with Bob that maybe it is time to put Batman away for awhile and lets try making GOOD (and I emphasis that word) movies for the other characters in the DC canon.

2) I disagree that Batman has nothing to bring to the table. The truth is that in many cases, Batman is capable of doing what the others heroes can't or won't do. Make no mistake, in that little list of super humans Bob rattled off, none of them are a half-decent detective and I wouldn't trust any of them to do any kind of real infiltration. Sorry Bob, but just because you're tired of him doesn't mean he isn't one of the most important parts of the Justice League for more then just "being Batman".

Actually, the Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onzz)'s human identity was a detective, the Barry Allen Flash was a "police scientist" (later revealed to be a forensic scientist), and the Question was an investigative journalist so they ARE half-decent detectives

Ironically even in the comics, Batman's detective skills are near the bottom of 'things we effectively use' pile and sometimes he comes off as stupid. Tower of Babel saga aka Justice League: Doom‎ case in point--you have this database on your fellow Leaguers and you do NOT have a system that tells you if the files are accessed without your knowledge in place? Let the face palming begin.

As for "real infiltration" the Martian Manhunter was doing it for decades (pretending to be a human) and via his telepathic powers could impersonate a person the crooks KNOW...something Batman could have a problem with. Wally West Flash was able to pretend to be Barry's arch enemy Professor Zoom (Reverse Flash) for a while and in the comics Superman has taken on MANY identities (usually without knowing who he really is) and fooling everyone in the process! In the comics he has been the President of the United States (Action Comics Vol 1 #371), a professional wrestler (Action Comics Vol 1 #372), Public Enemy #1 (Action Comics Vol 1 #374), and I think you get the idea. And all these successful impersonations were him without actually trying!

I think the real reason for Batman being the go to DC character is that of all the main members of the League he is the cheapest to put off in terms of abilities (his gadgets are another story).

Alright, I'll give you Martian Manhunter, but even then what he is doing isn't so much detective work as it is reading the minds of other people.

Tower of Babel was a case of writer-induced stupidity. Doesn't count.

Flash impersonating an arch-nemesis with essentially the same power set and costume. Not much of a stretch there if you get down to brass tacks.

As for Superman, where to begin. All three of your examples are from Silver Age, and everyone knows Silver Age Superman could do anything. Find me an example of that post-crisis. Second, this is the same canon from which sprung the idea that his glasses were magical so no one could recognize who he was when the glasses we off. Again, not his own skills.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

That's a fair call. But lets look at the superheroes that have managed to remain popular long enough into the current period to break out onto the silver screen and make it big in Hollywood.

Batman - A very intelligent bat-themed ninja, who masquerades as a trust fund raised billionaire playboy.
Ironman - A second-generation genius, who is not only scientist but also engineered his own suit of powered armour.
The Hulk - Yet another tormented scientific genius, who turns into a literally unstoppable green rage monster when he loses his cool.
Thor - An arrogant and obnoxious bully of an overgrown child finally grows up, who was and still is almost as thick as the hammer he wields. Spends almost all of his screen time between Thor and The Avengers trying to redeem his far more intelligent, slightly-deranged younger brother.
Spiderman - A nerdy, shy and awkward high school boy is blessed with awesome after being accidentally bitten by a special spider that grants superpowers.

Seeing a common thread that links this lot together? Only X-men (Read: Mostly Wolverine, but on the other hand they did heavily feature Magneto and Professor X who are definitely no slouches when it comes down to intelligence. But mostly Wolverine.) and Captain America really seem to buck the trend when it comes to the modern superhero genre's obsession with smarts.

It's interesting that you come to that conclusion, considering we have a long history in the west of associating intelligence with evil. The obsessive mad scientist, the scheming Machiavellian, the malevolent trickster. Usually the introverted loner who shouts 'FOOLS!' and starts monologuing isn't the good guy...

Superman has Lex Luthor, Batman has R'as and Scarecrow, Spiderman has like 16 villains who have PhDs.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Tower of Babel saga aka Justice League: Doom‎ case in point--you have this database on your fellow Leaguers and you do NOT have a system that tells you if the files are accessed without your knowledge in place? Let the face palming begin.

If someone can break into Batman's computer system, can't we assume that they're savvy enough to bypass the date-modified timestamps? Considering it'd have to be on a log or .plist file somewhere, I don't think it'd be too difficult.

If someone gets administrator access to your computer, they can pretty much do whatever they like with it. Security measures can only get you so far.

They're going to do more Batman, because Batman is the only real blockbuster character DC has.
Outside of Batman and Robin, the films are quite successful.

Hell, even Batman and Robin was financially successful. Budget of $140 million, box office $238 million. Plus merchandising, tie-ins, and a very decent soundtrack. (The End Is the Beginning Is the End, anyone?)