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Ashoten

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Aug 29, 2010
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keserak said:
Bob is absolutely full of shit.

He is speaking with the air of authority on something he knows less than nothing about. That is, he has so much misinformation that he would actually be better off being completely ignorant.

Let's review the errors.

Selective breeding is NOT the same thing as genetic engineering. Genetic engineering involves using viruses (or other small carriers, such as needles) to modify a species using genetic material from a completely different species. In other words, two species that could NEVER breed in the wild can have materials combined. Viruses can move genetic material around in the wild "naturally," but, in multicellular organisms, this is an incredibly rare event that has only been theorized to have occured. In other words, this is NOT a natural event. In fact, you take genetic traits from plants and fungi and add them to animals. The organisms don't even have to be in the same kingdom.

Bob implied that this was only turning on and off existing traits.

In this, Bob is a liar.*

In comparison to crossbreeding, Bob calls using genetic engineering, "simplifying." By his bullshit logic, invasive surgery is the same thing as taking an herbal supplement.

And oh, let's not hear the "it all exists in nature" canard from some of the posters. Cyanide is naturally occuring -- I invite you to try some. The fact of the matter is, a protein that is excellent in corn won't necessarily be healthy in a trout. Biological systems are exceptionally complex -- they are likely the most complex thing known to man -- and extensive testing would be needed to be certain the chimeric animal is healthy and safe to eat -- testing that Monsanto and the like are dedicated to avoiding.

By the way, the relevant term here is chimera, NOT a hybrid Bob -- and if you don't know what a chimera is, you shouldn't even be in this discussion. Seriously, this is like discussing the Middle East without knowing what Jew, Arab, oil, and the U.S. mean.

But back to that earlier point, it is not the mere existence of a biological agent that makes it "natural," but its relationship with the organism. I can assure you that an octopus contains plenty of chemicals that, if placed in the human bloodstream, would sicken it, and vice-versa. Saying that something is "natural" because it's found in nature is like claiming it's okay to stab you in the head with an icicle. Water is natural, after all, and you're full of it already, right?

It gets worse. The problem with genetic engineering -- which Bob doesn't even understand -- is that it is being used without proper controls and with complete disregard to environmental laws and human saftey. Monsanto, the biggest and most well-known perpetrator, made its fortune by doing the following:

a) Invent a highly toxic weed killer.
b) Genetically modify seeds with material outside the seeds' species to resist the weed killing toxin.
c) Modify the seeds further for other uses.
d) Fail to test the food on animals -- or test the food badly, obscuring animal harm such as increased rate of cancer. (Yep, they'll lie about their own results.)
e) Sell the seed to farmers where the plants will interbreed with wild species, contaminating them.

And the real doozy:

f) If some of Monsanto's seeds get onto your property and you've refused to buy their seed, they will claim your ENTIRE FARM as their own and take the plants you developed via decades of actual cross-breeding, patent the plants, and steal your livelhood.

I'm not kidding. They did this to farmers in Canada and are pulling the same crap in India.

Oh, by the way: if you're in the third world, they'll refuse to let you save your seeds -- you know, what farmers have done for over 20 thousand years. That way you have to buy from them ever year. And they jack the price up. Not that you needed to buy their seed before they started polluting your crops with their seeds.

Needless to say, contamination of some of the oldest crops of mankind could lead to some pretty serious devastation. Monsanto and similar companies are using the entire planet as a laboratory and have no experimental controls. (And again, if you don't know what a scientific control is, you have no business saying anything about genetic engineering. Just to be sure, I'm not saying you shouldn't talk about this: you should. You should look up your terms first, however -- and not spew a bunch of poisonous lies on a popular media site while ridiculing hundreds of millions of people fighting to preserve their lives and jobs.)

It is not genetic engineering to improve crops. It's genetic engineering to exploit the trademark system, a legal system that the framers of the Constitution never expected to be employed as we do today. It is supposed to be illegal to patent living things; Monsanto's bribes changed that.

And, oh, Bob -- that carrot? The one you thought you were so clever about? Yeah, we know it was genetically engineered due to activists telling us. It wasn't mentioned in the supermarket. In fact, Monsanto and its allies work hard to obscure all genetic engineering information and hope to make its disclosure illegal. This is despite the fact that some of their additions can trigger allergic reactions in humans.

So, if you're allergic to peanuts, imagine it being illegal to label something as containing peanut products. That's you're future.

Seriously, Bob, that carrot gag did nothing to ridicule your target and simply made you look like an ass.

Hell, even his non-science discussion is a doughy pantload. Frankenstein's lack of scientific credentials in the novel was basically irrelevant since accredidation didn't mean much in the 19th century -- but, zounds, it was a big deal in the 20th, hence the change to the movie.

You'd think he'd know that, being a movie critic.



*The vehemence of this reply is due to the fact that Bob was contemptuous of people who have a valid, important concern with the state of the FDA. In short, Bob was belittling people who are working their asses off to save lives and livelihoods in the face of ridiculously irresponsible and, frankly, antiscientific mismanagement. And he did so using out-and-out lies, some of which parallels the lies used by the industries breaking the laws and bribing congress as we speak. I call him a liar because of his confidence; he made blanket, untrue declarations with the intent to persuade.

I actually think you and Bob are more in agreement then you think. His rant seemed like more a critique on people acting out of fear and ignorance rather then facts. I suppose he could have taken time to point out that mishandling of genetic modification can definitely be dangerous. However the same could be said of any other science. Maybe he could take an episode to berate "BAD" scientists that take paychecks over the purity of scientific pursuit.
 

geierkreisen

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Jul 5, 2010
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malestrithe said:
That is the heart of this debate. It is not about the "dangers" of Gm crops, but because you are afraid of big business taking over the world.

The greater reason why need to do this is because you are not prepared to answer an even bigger question. Are you going to tell the people in Africa they need to starve because you are afraid? Who gives you the right to say such a thing?
You want a company that made big money on killing Viets with herbicides to feed the starving masses with Roundup Ready Bullshit? All the First World does is patronize the Second and Third and sell them the milk powder and chicken meat we don't need any more as well as the genetically modified bullshit that we in Europe, Canada and other countries don't let onto our fields nor into our countries. We should stay the hell out of their economies and start paying them back real cash for centuries of exploitation and slavery instead of swinging that dick labelled "we are your saviours" around. My Germany is in this as much as your US and I am not calling for the Monroe doctrine back. But we overproduce and flood the Third World with cheap leftovers and monopolist patents and Golden Rice so that noone there has any chance left of leading a meager but autonomous life and to save themselves instead of being held in a state of dependence and post-imperial oppression.
 

WarpGhost

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Jan 5, 2009
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Once again, another few minutes of interesting, reasonable discourse, the sort we don't seem to see so much of. Im seriously liking this series.
 

wasalp

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Dec 22, 2008
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geierkreisen said:
yup, creating seedless plants is the truly dangerous part of geneticaly enginering food, because lets face it corporations do and will continue doing this.
 

Styphax

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Jun 3, 2009
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Not a bad video but I'd like to throw my 2 cents on the internet anyway. I personally am not afraid of GMO's and I don't think a lot of people are, and especially not the science behind them. I think a lot of the 'irrationality' that Bob mentioned comes more from the businesses behind the GMO's. Companies that patent seeds and use huge amounts of influence to keep labels off of GMO crops/foods (in the states at least) While I am all for supporting natural and local foods I like that I can have different kinds of foods year round, or that preservatives keep it lasting longer. I just don't like that the cost of this is factory farms and the loss of the small farmer who happened to have some GMO seed mixed into his crops by wind. (I know this wasn't entirely clear, but this is the simplified version)
 

fullbleed

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Apr 30, 2008
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I wish Bob touched more on the actual benefits that GM crops could bring. It'll improve the economy since farmers would have more successful harvests and make more money, they can breed crops to be more resilient to nature cutting down on the level of maintainence and expertise required. And then aply this to the developing world where over population, polution and droughts and famine cause food shortages and starvation. GM crops could greatly help countries to overcome these problems but are being held back by the constant demonisation of GM foods. Ofcourse I'm not saying that GM crops would solve world hunger over night, most the world's problems in developing countries are due to war.
 

Faerillis

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Oct 29, 2009
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Damn Bob, you could've taken this opportunity to debunk "Organic Foods" as well.
Like GMO's using a more earth friendly fertilizer. Because Cow Shit is produced along side massive amounts of methane (many many times worse than carbon for the environment) and is a breeding ground for bacteria and diseases... No thank you.
GMO's use a far far less toxic pesticide. Yes, that's right there is no such thing as pesticide free. DTD free sure, but GMO farmers have moved onto more effective and less toxic pesticides while "Organic" farmers have not.
GMO's are innately more nutritious than "Organic", because they have been engineered to.
"Organic" Foods would have us all starve as they can at most feed 4 billion people, considering we are moving towards 7 billion people that is not a good thing.
Small Farmers use GMO's because of higher yield crops, in fact most "Organic" foods come from conglomerated farming in China.
And on and on.

se7ensenses said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94d-KVorSHM
Too bad he is lying through his teeth.
 

Wintermoot

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Aug 20, 2009
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vulkman said:
henritje said:
I,m not worried as long as my potatoes dont gnaw my face off
You should be worried about your potatoes causing cancer or containing allergenes because no one bothered to test them, cause they're just potatoes, right? Right?? I mean, c'mon, it's just like breeding, except we're doing something that NO ONE IN 150.000 YEARS OF HUMAN HISTORY HAS DONE BEFORE. No big deal. Right? And no, it's NOT the same as breeding, I have no idea who the FUCK told you that...

People mocked the anti-nuclear movement. Until Chernobyl.
People thought pharmaceuticals were safe. Until Thalidomide.
People thought, smoking was safe. Until the 1980s. Or until they got lung cancer.
People think GMO's are safe. Until...?

There are so many examples in history where the risks of certain practices first became evident after a relatively long period of time.

I'm not saying that it should under no circumstances be done, but to claim that any criticism is just paranoia and that it is no different from breeding, is not only wrong but dangerous.
apperently you didnt saw the vid its not like they are stuffing it with radiation or something they modify it on a genetic level (IE rewriting the blue prints) if genetic engineering would have anything to do with that it would REMOVE those effects instead of ADDING them, you should be more afraid of your computer turning agianst you then your carrots giving you cancer
PS there is a bigger chance of getting cancer from taking a walk in the sun then getting it from genticly engineerd food
 

Monshroud

Evil Overlord
Jul 29, 2009
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Probably the best Big Picutre thus far.

Penn and Teller did a piece on genetic food in their show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIvNopv9Pa8

Sorry I don't remember how to embed a YouTube vid into the message.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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Nicely presented.

I have this conversation with people all the time. You didn't even touch on how GM food is not only bigger, it's stronger and more likely to survive to harvest...less dead crops make for a much healthier yield, and makes much better use of the limited farmland we have than letting crops die(and farmland be wasted)in the name of preserving nature.

If we let crops die, less people get fed...

There's nothing ethical about being a snob and opting for organic food.

Edit - Bring on the cloned meat, go science!
 

MarsProbe

Circuitboard Seahorse
Dec 13, 2008
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Great video. The hysterics over GM food is something that really gets me goat. Though it did make me laugh when there was a bout of panic when it turned out that somehow, someone had allowed a GM cow to reproduce and have its offspring enter our food chain.

From this laymans perspective, if the animal is healthy enough to breed and produce offspring, then we shouldn't be too worried about eating the processed components of said offspring, surely?
 

Dastardly

Imaginary Friend
Apr 19, 2010
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MovieBob said:
Feeding Edge

This week, Bob takes a bite out of "frankenfood."

Watch Video
When it comes right down to it, you're right. I think the problem is that people group everything in the "genetic engineering" field into one of two controversial categories:

1) Eugenics - the idea that we're going to "selectively breed" humans, as enforced by law, in an effort to remove certain diseases (and later, any 'undesirable' trait) from the gene pool. This line of discussion flirts with Godwin's Law, so we'll leave it at that.

2) Genetic tampering - Not just switching extant genes off and on, but introducing new traits... like a potato with lips. Amazing how one made of plastic is a timeless child's toy, while a real one with real lips is suddenly an abomination. This comes back to the old, "Man must not tamper in God's domain!" deal, but also comes back to our fear that someone is going to engineer an accidentally-apocalyptic supercritter (be it a hyper-locust or velociraptor)

So, basically, you can thank Gattaca and Jurassic Park for the fact that no one can say "genetic engineering" without being stuffed behind a tiny half-mustache and a Swastika (See? Godwin's Law!)
 

GrizzlerBorno

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Sep 2, 2010
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And ofcourse the Tragedy is that the only people who will see this...are smart educated escapists who don't believe this shite in the first place.
 

Prof. Monkeypox

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Mar 17, 2010
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The whole time I watched this video, I was like "yeah, ok, what's your point. This is obvious." Then, I remembered that most people wouldn't find this obvious... and that made me sad...

Also: defibrillation can't bring people back to life. Frankenstein's thing was more post-mortem nervous stimulation.