The Big Picture: Gender Games

[Random berk]

I love how Bob talks about far more diverse male character models in games, and to emphasize that point, shows a picture where five of the six characters shown are very muscular, bodybuilder types.

Also, would I be completely off the mark in suggesting that a lot of female sexualisation depends strongly on the genre of game? I notice that a lot of the characters shown in these kind of discussions come from games like Soul Calibur, Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat. Looking at my own game library - Gears of War, Mass Effect, Assassins Creed, Red Dead Redemption, Red Faction, Fable,Left 4 Dead, Dead Space, Fallout 3, and so on- I can't remember offhand any character who went to war in a bikini.

 

[Smackerlacker]

Once again I leave edified, educated, and slightly aroused. Nice work Mr. Bob.

 

[Daaaah Whoosh]

Or maybe make a female character that you don't want to fuck? Just a thought. Maybe have an actual person who happens to be female, and not an object of sexual desire?

All right, then. Why don't we talk about how the leading men in video games always look handsome and well-built, then? There are seldom any fat or ugly men in games, especially in many RPGs, where there is only one body type per gender for every human NPC. Normally, both sexes are portrayed in a way that makes them attractive to most people. I'm just trying to say that if it's going to be that way, it might as well be equal for both men and women in all respects. I mean, I'm all for seeing a bunch of non-attractive people in video games, as long as it's not just the women.

 

[Matthew Dunn]

I've seen terribly written female characters in the Dead Or Alive games

No love for the game </3
I only really gave a dam about the fight and still do
All my friends just see the boob physics

Its all a matter of opinion
I am working to be a games designer (YAAY UNIVERSITY)
Its difficult to work with a media were the people who argue are the most vocal and (sometimes) less qualified (im not on about the mass audience just those who say "GAMES ARE BAD CUZ I SAID SO.. NO I DIDNT PLAY ANY GAMES" (Im looking at you FOX NEWS !) They annoy the hell outta me

If you took the pose thing IE to take the Marcus Fenix pose and stuck a female character in there will it feel the same ? DAM RIGHT !! (as long as you dont over sexualise it)

WOO SISTERS OF BATTLE (warhammer 40K)

 

[Epona]

So in this area they will ***** and complain until men lose interest in gaming the way boys and men have lost interest in everything else feminists have destroyed.

Give an example. I find it really hard to believe gamers will stop gaming because of feminist complainers when they dismiss feminists anyway. Hell people complain about gaming have too many sequels and whatnot. Gamers agree and they still game anyway.

What have feminists destroyed anyway? They and Christian conservatives tried to destroy porn once and they failed miserably (to get an idea of what a miserable failure it was, read this http://www.cracked.com/article_17300_6-ways-that-porn-runs-world.html ).

Now both groups are going after games (for different reasons I know) and they are still failing miserably. A significant number of games are still incredibly violent and/or have fan service characters.

I don't want to get too far into this for it will get me banned but I will provide an example:

Bashing feminism will not get you banned. Being a jerk or saying that all women/men/whatever are evil will get you into trouble, but it will probably be warnings at first (I'm not accusing you of doing those things just so we're clear).

- feminists have bitched until the school systems (especially colleges) are completely geared toward teaching girls who learn differently than boys. Boys have little motivation to go to class at all when the teaching methods bore them. The same can happen to games if developers go out of their way to "grease the squeaky wheel" to meet the ever-changing demands of feminists.

I'm not sure if that's what's really happened in schools but that's another debate (one which I'm too ignorant to participate in). Anyway I think that's a legitimate concern for some games but at the same time there are developers who just ignore all the complainers. Rockstar never removed the "solicit prostitutes then kill them to get your money back" option in GTA despite feminists, the media and pretty much every family group giving them shit over it.

I think there will always be developers who cater to gamers who ... don't have the same tastes as feminists so I don't think it will ever be destroyed.

Discussing gender issues at all is a touchy topic and I know not to stick more than a toe in the water.

I am done here, just wanted to put some thoughts out there for people to poke holes in, laugh at or consider.

 

[Rakor]

Problem is, any pose is a sexy pose in some of those outfits.

But otherwise, in the fighting game setup they're kinda supposed to be peaks of human form. The men show that by being incredibly muscular, and the women show it by being sexy. Granted, peak of physical fitness may or may not make you pretty, but its the superhero setup of the ultimate man or ultimate woman. And, technically, tight fitting (or lack of) clothes does make it easier to move and do high kicks. Alot can still stand to be done with a bit more class but it will still be tight fitting. There are very functional japanese outfits these fighters could be using that are a bit more classy and less revealing, though at this point alot of them already have the outfits one is used to. Mmmm.....miko priestess outfits.......what?

But enough about mere fighting game characters, they're not really meant to be entirely fleshed out characters, just beautiful people and stereotypes that beat the crud out of each other.

When the person is a main character for an entire game, that's when it gets weird. I mean, sometimes it is kinda just meant to be a sexy character. But in an rpg.....kind of want a bit more class there. Yeah one of your merry crew might just be the stereotypical sexy person along for the ride, but variety is still key. And just maybe have a jrpg where there isn't a damsel character....who's a princess...hates fighting.....and is a healer. Make a dude the timid healer, mix it up a bit. Maybe the chicks are the battle hungry front-runners or phalanxes. Certainly the heavy armored "knight" female character who's more confused or disassociated with her female side than anyone else is an interesting character to have around.

X-2.....hmmm. That's a whole other column's worth of ranting for another time perhaps.

 

[Rarhnor]

What I thought of a lot through this part of the video was Trishka from Bulletstorm, in writing she was supposed to be a tough talking bad ass marine who happened to be female, the in game character though was more sexualized, sure a vest top isn't all that kinky but then there's her slender body, the makeup, the well groomed hair, all this on a hostile planet of nutters while everyone else wears combat armour Trishka has to look good. Also as the narrative (if it can be called that) progresses we eventually get to see the weaker side of Trishka in order to make her more endearing, the whole point of her badass character gets lost in a stupid love/hate "witty banter" force romance between herself and Grayson aka Macho Ex Space Marine Hero Guy. I'd rate her as possibly one of the worst female characters of the year.

Wow.

Hitting me with frisbee out of nowhere. Like, really? You honestly invested sexual thoughts into Trishka? Shows that everything is open to interpretation sometimes...

I didn't feel that at all. Sure i did notice that she had more lash than Greyson, but she was as Marine as the rest of the cast. Oooo, Tank top! That's sexual! No...no it isn't. At least not to me.
She spat out toilet humor, as if she were raised by re-watching 'Vampires Suck'. In fact, I caught more of a "bromance" thing going on between Grayson and Her (if any, that is), than an out of place romance. Though yes, we do see her in a weaken state, due to her character...Just like we see (or at least hear) Grayson do with Ishi's "death".

Slender body? That is what you call fit. Women and men have different baselines of physical progress, based on what the do. Ever been to a gym? I have. Though the women lift weights, they do not become muscular in the same way men do.
Groomed hair? It looked like she put a mop on her head, just like Grayson looks like, he's been blow drying his greasy hair, in a wind tunnel.

But hey! If you feel attracted to her, then good for you! 'Cause she wasn't for me.

OT: You can't really draw in games from Japan. We are different culture-wise. Japan's "idol culture" comes to mind here. Women with lots of curve and men over-muscular structure are key features in Japanese games (some rather have their men being skin-clean deep-eyed nice guys, but the point remains). Hell, women and girls actually look up to other women with more curve, and even more cleavage, than they have themselves (or could ever hope for). Taking E-honda, he has a body that is idealized along the same lines as women with skimpy clothing, not counting that E-honda's outfit is nothing but "raggy" underwear by western standards. I would really like to own Sagat's six-pack. Should I feel offended, because he doesn't wear a shirt? Should I be offended that he isn't skinny and small like me? That Ryu shouldn't have such broad shoulder, or Ken such a back, because it isn't how I'm, if any average or strong modern man is portrayed? Oh, I should? Well...I'm not.

Feminists making an issue out of something that isn't.

 

[Robert B. Marks]

4173: "It's funny you use Batman as an example, because the various Batgirls and Batwomen are usually more covered up than the Robins."

Yeah, that's what came to mind - I had just been reading the article about the comics, and reading all of those posts in reply that amounted to "Yeah, but men are oversexualized too!"

And, I'll concede what I've seen of Batman is pretty close to the way things should be done. Catwoman doesn't look like a stripper, and neither do the other female characters. But, you look at video game characters, and wow...just wow. There are female video game costumes that would require glue or double-sided tape just to work.

(And, speaking of Robin, well, I'm not a comic book fan, so what I've seen has tended to be on TV, and there the Batman and Robin combination freaks the hell out of me. Most of the time, Robin looks like he's around 12 years old - Batman should go to jail for endangerment of a minor. And that's not counting all of the other unfortunate implications of having a "boy wonder" actually being a boy.)

Really, though, when it comes down to it, a lot of games are stuck in a sort of adolescence. The gender roles say as much. There are times when that works (such as the send-up that Duke Nukem was supposed to be, but didn't end up being), but most of the time it is just indefensible. And any medium will find its own market. If you make games that are serious and deal with adult themes (as opposed to what a 13-year-old thinks is adult), then you will attract mature people who will take the games seriously. If you keep making games where women are treated like something out of a porno or a strip club, then you will attract immature players and the medium will remain stagnant, and a joke.

 

[Matthew Dunn]

What I thought of a lot through this part of the video was Trishka from Bulletstorm, in writing she was supposed to be a tough talking bad ass marine who happened to be female, the in game character though was more sexualized, sure a vest top isn't all that kinky but then there's her slender body, the makeup, the well groomed hair, all this on a hostile planet of nutters while everyone else wears combat armour Trishka has to look good. Also as the narrative (if it can be called that) progresses we eventually get to see the weaker side of Trishka in order to make her more endearing, the whole point of her badass character gets lost in a stupid love/hate "witty banter" force romance between herself and Grayson aka Macho Ex Space Marine Hero Guy. I'd rate her as possibly one of the worst female characters of the year.

Wow.

Hitting me with frisbee out of nowhere. Like, really? You honestly invested sexual thoughts into Trishka? Shows that everything is open to interpretation sometimes...

I didn't feel that at all. Sure i did notice that she had more lash than Greyson, but she was as Marine as the rest of the cast. Oooo, Tank top! That's sexual! No...no it isn't. At least not to me.
She spat out toilet humor, as if she were raised by re-watching 'Vampires Suck'. In fact, I caught more of a "bromance" thing going on between Grayson and Her (if any, that is), than an out of place romance. Though yes, we do see her in a weaken state, due to her character...Just like we see (or at least hear) Grayson do with Ishi's "death".

Slender body? That is what you call fit. Women and men have different baselines of physical progress, based on what the do. Ever been to a gym? I have. Though the women lift weights, they do not become muscular in the same way men do.
Groomed hair? It looked like she put a mop on her head, just like Grayson looks like, he's been blow drying his greasy hair, in a wind tunnel.

But hey! If you feel attracted to her, then good for you! 'Cause she wasn't for me.

OT: You can't really draw in games from Japan. We are different culture-wise. Japan's "idol culture" comes to mind here. Women with lots of curve and men over-muscular structure are key features in Japanese games (some rather have their men being skin-clean deep-eyed nice guys, but the point remains). Hell, women and girls actually look up to other women with more curve, and even more cleavage, than they have themselves (or could ever hope for). I would really like to own Sagat's six-pack. Should I feel offended, because he doesn't wear a shirt?

With Trishka i got a more "Im gunna kill you and then use you as a meat shield if you piss me off more than you already have by breathing my air"
Or as she said herself " IM GUNNA KILL YOUR DICK !!"
Her She might have lost the armour in a situation you arnt part of ? Think of her story
*Spoiler* You blow up the ship she is on at the start of Bulletstorm whos got the time to pick up armour when your trying not to blow up ? *Spoiler*

 

[The Random One]

I don't think about this very much because I by and large agree with the 'feminist' viewpoint, and I am personally offended that devs think I'll look into/buy/enjoy their game more because there is a girl with big boobs in them. But this is a very nice look into the underlying mechanisms of the thing.

I realize that every time an almost normal girl (or just competent in combat girl) shows up as an important character in a game, even if she's not drop dead-gorgeous, she has to have some feature that's über hot, usually a gigantic rack. Like Elizabeth in the upcoming Bioshock Infinite, or the bodyguard lady in Dead Island. I think this shows some people are trying to change this and some people are pushing not to.

I'll also add that Ivy is probably one of the girls who gets a pass on this stuff, since she also uses her sexuality as a weapon - which is why one of her alterative outfits is usually some sort of military uniform that shows nothing but her head, as if she was saying 'I can beat you by distracting you with my boobies, but I don't need to. It's just more fun this way.' The rest of the SC roster is guilty though.

Also when you showed Bowser's second pose I was sure you were going to say it communicates U GONNA GET RAPED.

lotsa stuff

No. There is a difference. Look at the roster of any random fighting game.

There will be a lot of fine looking man with muscular arms and big biceps and revealing clothing.

There will be a lot of fine looking women with big boobs and huge legs and revealing clothes.

There will be a bunch of weird looking man who are mutated or on fire or skeletons or maybe just fat, depending on the setting.

And there might be a robot.

See the problem?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Sorry, I'm not very good at debate (I Just threw that last sentence in as a closer)

We're all learning

I meant that men don't care as much about male characters being objectified in video games. As long as the rest of the game is fun to play, we'd likely let two dimensional characters slide. But I DO appreciate complex characters and profound story-lines as a fan of things like Star Wars and Firefly.

This is where opinions differ I think. Men care far more about the "heart" of the character they're playing while women (seem to) care about the appearance - but that's visible in other things as well. If you have Mai Shiranui wearing a suit, she'd still be "phwooar"ed at by blokes, but if Andy Bogard dumps her....they're going to go ape-shit.

BTW: which "NOOOOOOO!" are you referring to? the old one or the new one? I actually though the one at the end of Revenge was quite fitting, if only because Anikin was an absolute *****. (yeah whole transformation/he's supposed to be bad ass Vader now but can't let go). As for the new one, I stopped caring about Lucas making changes to the original trilogy after I saw Han Solo shoot first on YouTube.

I think "Noooo" just refers to every change Lucas has made now. Without anyone to spank his wrist he's just wringing the cash cow dry.

The real "Nooo" was that the prequels didn't (and in my mind, shouldn't) have told the tale of Vader.

Now, if you're gonna sell people on the fact that Sonya Blade now fights in high heels - use the phrase "Lucasized" it, and you'll get a lot more men behind you.

 

[Mahha]

I think that a perfect model of a female (or at least a teenage confused female) is Heather from Silent Hill 3. I'm pretty sure that that is one of the few female character in video games that actually uses body language to express emotions other than "look at me stud" and "I'm a big girl cause I have a big gun/knife/pink dildo in my hand".

And to be honest, the way in which she looks and acts like an actual person makes her just as sexy as all of the over designed (and sexualised) characters.

 

[The Random One]

This is where opinions differ I think. Men care far more about the "heart" of the character they're playing while women (seem to) care about the appearance - but that's visible in other things as well. If you have Mai Shiranui wearing a suit, she'd still be "phwooar"ed at by blokes, but if Andy Bogard dumps her....they're going to go ape-shit.

Do you really think so? I've seen men diss character of both genders, but mostly females, because they're 'butt ugly' or whatever, and when I see a female talking about a character it's usually about personality arcs and relationships and stuff.

 

[Rarhnor]

With Trishka i got a more "Im gunna kill you and then use you as a meat shield if you piss me off more than you already have by breathing my air"
Or as she said herself " IM GUNNA KILL YOUR DICK !!"
Her She might have lost the armour in a situation you arnt part of ? Think of her story
*Spoiler* You blow up the ship she is on at the start of Bulletstorm whos got the time to pick up armour when your trying not to blow up ? *Spoiler*

*Slow confirming clap*

Exactly! She comes off as an aggressive, selfish, one-of-the-boys kind of girl with a lot more teeth than boobs, than an over-idealized image of something unattainable or unfair sexualization of gender. For me, the writers did their job.

 

[Genixma]

Not feeling you this week MovieBob not because the topic wasn't good it just felt all over the place and rushed. I think it could of been handled a bit better but that's just me. After all you said you didn't have enough to do an entire episode out of so that might be why it felt like it did. Still good subject.

 

[Princess Rose]

So it's not about the skimpy outfits per se, but how they are posed in said outfits....

Perhaps I have too much testosterone, but could someone provide an example of the difference?

From a feminist gamer, here's a good example:


The original cover of Parasite Eve shows Aya Brea looking determined about something, and Melissa hovering in the background, looking simultaneously sexy (awesome cleavage) and horrifically mutated (mantis arms). It clearly showed that this game was all about two powerful women attempting to kill each other - two women enter, one woman leaves.

On the other hand...

[img width=300 src=http://www.justpushstart.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/parasite_eve_2_box_art.jpg]

Parasite Eve 2 is Aya looking sleepy and showing a lot of leg for... no real reason. She still looks like a cop, which helps us know that she's a cop, and we do see some weird dudes in the background that we'll be murdering during game play, but it doesn't convey the same strong message as PE1.

And finally...

[img width=300 src=http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/the-third-birthday-walkthrough-box-artwork-wallpaper.jpg]

The cover to the third game. Aya... is wearing leather and torn jeans. And standing around with little to no expression on her face. No determination, like the first game. No slightly sleepy sadness like the second game. Just... blank. Like she's a blow-up doll or a Japanese love pillow.

It's sad really. A lot of time and effort went into that third cover, but the original "five minutes using screen-caps from cut-scenes and Photoshop" cover looks WAY better. Cheap as the original cover is, it tells the whole story of the game right there on the cover. On the other hand, Third Birthday tells us nothing on the cover - except, perhaps, that Aya's clothing will get torn in a sexy fashion during gameplay. Which it does.

So there you have it - Aya was always sexy, but her portrayal has gotten less interesting even as her graphics have improved - because too much attention is paid to her looking sexy rather than her being awesome.

Pro tip: If your female character is attractive and doing awesome things, then that will MAKE her sexy. Awesomeness makes a character more sexy. Stupid poses... don't.

 

[TaboriHK]

Are we throwing out female Shepard with the bathwater?

I think this is a shallow-end of the pool argument. All the points brought up can be applied to male characters as well. Is it more acute with females? Yes, I'll concede that I think it is. But try to remember the last time you didn't play a tough guy in a video game. Because aside from Alan Wake, I can't think of one in recent memory offhand, and that game's female characters weren't stereotypical either.

It's easy to point at something with a lack of depth like a fighting game and go, "look, tits everywhere." And it's a valid point. But you can do the same thing with movies. Should I judge cinema as a form of media because I saw The Expendables? The bottom line is that gaming as a medium is so huge that it's going to cover a lot of ground. But teenage males are not the entire market. They're just a lot of money, so of course they will have a lot of representation. That goes both ways in terms of affecting protagonists. But to say that this is the entire realm of video games' issue is ignorant of the medium.

What sells best is always going to be what is most visible. But it's NEVER the entirety of the "big picture."