The Big Picture: Not Okay

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Farseer Lolotea

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Mar 11, 2010
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Father Time said:
Nice dodge attempt, but no. You have to prove that rape jokes fall under the fighting words exception of the first amendment which is what you claimed.
There is nothing to "dodge" at all. You are trying to defend something that can easily be construed as a form of harassment (also not covered under the First Amendment, for the record), apparently on the grounds that you don't see it as such.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

We do have a right in the U.S. to tell rape jokes, and that right is covered under free speech. That's all I said, and those are facts.
I'd love to see you try to argue that in a court of law, really.

You seem to think "free speech" equals the right to verbally piss on whoever you choose without fear of consequences. You also seem to think that you're not verbally pissing on anyone if you didn't intend to do so.

Please, by all means, enlighten me as to how any of that is not a case of unexamined privilege [http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Privilege] on your part.
 

Farseer Lolotea

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Father Time said:
Making rape jokes, bigoted jokes, what-have-you in private? No, there's no law against that.

However (and we'll skip how making, or being amused by, such jokes in the first place reflects on people), you just moved the goalposts by specifying "in private." I'm sure there's a hell of a lot that you can do in private that would be unacceptable otherwise.

In short: if anyone hears it except you and your friends? You've got no business being surprised, much less indignant, if you find out that you've crossed a line and can't just slide out of it by invoking the First Amendment. Actions have consequences.

And "straw man," hell. Regardless of whether or not you said it in so many words, or whether or not you intended to, that is what your argument adds up to.

There's also the fact that after reducing my argument to "you're wrong because of privilege," you're really in no position to cry "straw man." What I said that was you are clearly operating from a position of willfully unexamined privilege, and the matter of responsibility doesn't seem to occur to you.
 

TRG2000

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You're really missing the big picture here.
You pick on the small gaming nerd community for being sexist, yet again again, but have nothing to say about our society as a whole, which is just as much if not more sexist.
Sexism is not limited to just women.
nether is rape as it's imply in this video, men can and do fall victim to rape, and I'm not just talking about prison rape.
I knew a handicapped guy who was raped by a women, and when he tried to contact the police about it, they told him not to make prank calls and only call them for real problems.

Bob says these small communities act like it's normal and it's just how things are, but this is exactly what society at large does with sexism directed at men.
I'm not going to defend the guy for what he said in that stream, it was clearly disgusting behavior, but my problem is that no one cares when women or society are sexist to men.
It's not right to objectify women as men's sex objects, yet it's okay to paint men as woman's servants and generally worthless in all regards.

But I don't expect any of these videos to ever talk about this, since any guy who brings this up will most likely be hated for it and or viewed as some sort of wussy or pansy crybaby.

I could go on and on about sexism towards men in our society, but I doubt anyone here would care.
I just had to voice my complaint about these videos.

More information on the matter can be found here.
http://www.manwomanmyth.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/manwomanmyth
 

Farseer Lolotea

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TRG2000 said:
I get what you're saying; sexism certainly cuts both ways.

However, even a relatively quick perusal of that site tells me that it's...well, I'm going to be polite and say "itself missing the point." As an alternative, I'd suggest checking out these guys [http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/], who argue many of the same points without lashing out.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
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I really liked this episode.
I have been wondering lately why we avoid these conversations.

We ARE responsible for ourselves, and if we truly want to paint ourselves as a community for people who may not exactly fit in, marginalising people is just making us as bad as every bully out there.

I'll be glad when me being a girl is not a big deal in this community, when I'm just another player.

We're not there yet but hopefully with more cool male gamers willing to say its not okay (being sexist), we can move forward. :)
 

maswell

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Aug 6, 2010
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I'm really glad he called out the use of the word rape. I've always thought it was a disgusting and tasteless use of a word that represents one of the worst crimes out there. It is nice to see some people claiming they will make an effort to not use it as a synonym for losing anymore.
 

zefiris

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Dec 3, 2011
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A woman gets drunk enough to impair her judgement. She CHOOSES to impair her judgement,
So, you agree that a guy that "agrees" to get his money stolen from while being drunk CHOOSES to impair his judgement and can therefore be robbed unless he specifically tells everyone he does not want to be robbed, right?

Because that's your argument for rape here.

'No' they do ACTUALLY mean yes
Sometimes, guys want to be kicked into the balls and them saying no, they don't, actually means yes. I'm not saying all guys do, but some do, so it's very understandable that a woman would get confused and kick a guy in the balls who said no or said nothing since she reasonably assumed he meant yes. I mean, some guys want it.

Oh, that's different now, is it. WHy, though? Because it affects you.

Bob says these small communities act like it's normal and it's just how things are, but this is exactly what society at large does with sexism directed at men.
That's because sexism aimed at men does not exist in society at large. The fun part is that even the things that tend to affect a few men negatively tend to be because of misogyny, not misandry.

I knew a handicapped guy who was raped by a women, and when he tried to contact the police about it, they told him not to make prank calls and only call them for real problems.
Guess what policemen tell handicapped women who were raped by men? Pretty much the same thing, in fact - I know several women that had this happen to them, the police didn't give a flying fuck despite video evidence because the women were disabled.
See, you are suffering from the delusion that rape is somehow a thing the police immediately accepts as a crime when a woman is the victim, which is factually wrong. Rape is one of the most underreported crimes precisely because the police tends to ignore any charge of rape that does not fit very limited narratives (as in, pretty white girl raped by violent stranger). Any case not fitting that is usually ignored unless it's a super public case and/or involves celebrities, cause that furthers the career of the persecutor. Normal people tho? Completely ignored.

This is especially true if the rape victim is of a minority, like a PoC or a handicapped person. Handicapped women have it INCREDIBLY hard to report rapes, because the police will usually assume that she lied because men "wouldn't hit it". Heck, even an ugly woman will have that happen to them, even though rape has literally nothing to do with attractiveness of the victim.

The problem here isn't sexism against men, it's rape culture. Notice how you see no issue with sexism against women, immediately to jump to make it all about men when we have a factual case of sexism against women, then attempt to pretend men have it harder by ignoring that men face the same issue with reporting rape as women do? Pretty typical mental gymnastics for rape culture. You're a pretty big part of it.

You're precisely part of the group of people that caused your friend to suffer like this. Precisely because of people like you, we never really do much about rape. There's always people like you dismissing it like you are right now. So good work.


I for one am busy in real life to push rape legislation and rape awareness, which helps both genders, since both genders can be raped, and both genders suffer from rape culture. You seem to only be busy denying that sexism or rape is a big deal unless it affects men.

You are the problem. So thanks for posting here to the thread, you illustrate perfectly why these attitudes are still around, and how people use arguments such as yours to protect these attitudes.
 

John Funk

U.N. Owen Was Him?
Dec 20, 2005
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Father Time said:
Farseer Lolotea said:
Father Time said:
You're the one that needs to prove they are fighting words.
So...I have to "prove" that there is no value in making light of people's massively traumatic lived experiences
Nice dodge attempt, but no. You have to prove that rape jokes fall under the fighting words exception of the first amendment which is what you claimed.

Farseer Lolotea said:
Or that trying to justify doing so, in the name of "freedom of speech" or anything else, is a sign of unexamined privilege?
We do have a right in the U.S. to tell rape jokes, and that right is covered under free speech. That's all I said, and those are facts.
sounds like someone needs to watch the last part of Bob's video again, particularly the part about free speech. Yes, you have the legal right to say rape jokes, in that teh government cannot stop you. And that is all.

It's really cute how you don't understand the concept of "privilege" in this case. Like, at all.

Keep up your ignorance, bro. You're making it easier for rapists to rape people because you want to tell jokes about a horribly traumatic event. Hope you feel good about that.
 

John Funk

U.N. Owen Was Him?
Dec 20, 2005
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zefiris said:
A woman gets drunk enough to impair her judgement. She CHOOSES to impair her judgement,
So, you agree that a guy that "agrees" to get his money stolen from while being drunk CHOOSES to impair his judgement and can therefore be robbed unless he specifically tells everyone he does not want to be robbed, right?

Because that's your argument for rape here.

'No' they do ACTUALLY mean yes
Sometimes, guys want to be kicked into the balls and them saying no, they don't, actually means yes. I'm not saying all guys do, but some do, so it's very understandable that a woman would get confused and kick a guy in the balls who said no or said nothing since she reasonably assumed he meant yes. I mean, some guys want it.

Oh, that's different now, is it. WHy, though? Because it affects you.

Bob says these small communities act like it's normal and it's just how things are, but this is exactly what society at large does with sexism directed at men.
That's because sexism aimed at men does not exist in society at large. The fun part is that even the things that tend to affect a few men negatively tend to be because of misogyny, not misandry.

I knew a handicapped guy who was raped by a women, and when he tried to contact the police about it, they told him not to make prank calls and only call them for real problems.
Guess what policemen tell handicapped women who were raped by men? Pretty much the same thing, in fact - I know several women that had this happen to them, the police didn't give a flying fuck despite video evidence because the women were disabled.
See, you are suffering from the delusion that rape is somehow a thing the police immediately accepts as a crime when a woman is the victim, which is factually wrong. Rape is one of the most underreported crimes precisely because the police tends to ignore any charge of rape that does not fit very limited narratives (as in, pretty white girl raped by violent stranger). Any case not fitting that is usually ignored unless it's a super public case and/or involves celebrities, cause that furthers the career of the persecutor. Normal people tho? Completely ignored.

This is especially true if the rape victim is of a minority, like a PoC or a handicapped person. Handicapped women have it INCREDIBLY hard to report rapes, because the police will usually assume that she lied because men "wouldn't hit it". Heck, even an ugly woman will have that happen to them, even though rape has literally nothing to do with attractiveness of the victim.

The problem here isn't sexism against men, it's rape culture. Notice how you see no issue with sexism against women, immediately to jump to make it all about men when we have a factual case of sexism against women, then attempt to pretend men have it harder by ignoring that men face the same issue with reporting rape as women do? Pretty typical mental gymnastics for rape culture. You're a pretty big part of it.

You're precisely part of the group of people that caused your friend to suffer like this. Precisely because of people like you, we never really do much about rape. There's always people like you dismissing it like you are right now. So good work.


I for one am busy in real life to push rape legislation and rape awareness, which helps both genders, since both genders can be raped, and both genders suffer from rape culture. You seem to only be busy denying that sexism or rape is a big deal unless it affects men.

You are the problem. So thanks for posting here to the thread, you illustrate perfectly why these attitudes are still around, and how people use arguments such as yours to protect these attitudes.
Thanks for this. You've said everythign I've been trying to say in a much more clear way.
 

John Funk

U.N. Owen Was Him?
Dec 20, 2005
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captainfluoxetine said:
Like it or not, in the real world. Sometimes when a woman or girl says 'No' they do ACTUALLY mean yes. Obviously not always, and obviously its entirely situational.

A woman in walking down a street, is physically attacked beaten into submission and then forced into penetrative sex. That is rape, fully removing the woman's choice in the matter, this is one of the most horrific and degrading crimes.

EDIT: The rambling point i'm getting at is choice. If the woman is free to physically remove herself from the situation then it's not rape.

No, when they say no, they mean no.

And "free to physically remove herself?" I think you're ignoring the impact of culture and preconditioning, friend. If a woman thinks "Oh, if I leave he might hurt me me," "He's my boyfriend, I *should* be giving him my body to make him happy," or whatever... then she might not leave. Maybe she'll just lie there like a corpse and let you do your thing.

Even if she really, really doesn't want to.

Welcome to rape culture.

The only time you should have sex, is after an enthusiastic "yes, I want to do this." That is what enthusiastic consent [http://campus.feministing.com/2010/10/27/on-the-critical-hotness-of-enthusiastic-consent/] means.

In the past, I haven't always sought complete and enthusiastic consent myself. And that's meant I've hurt people without ever meaning to, because that's what rape culture *does*. It means that well-meaning guys who don't know any better but who sure don't want to hurt anybody... do. Which is why seeking enthusiastic consent is superior in every way.

Edit: This isn't to say that enthusiastic consent is the ONLY consent. There are many couples, or people, who aren't good at verbalizing that "yes, I want to do this." Nonverbal communication is critical... as is recognizing "Hey, the other person really isn't into this, we should stop." It's important to recognize a sighed "Okay, all right" isn't a "Yeah, let's do this," and maybe you should stop to think about if you're impressing your desires on someone else.

There is no point during intimacy - the buildup, the act, even right before you're ready to finish - that is too late to stop, if the other person wants to stop.
 

Farseer Lolotea

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John Funk said:
It's really cute how you don't understand the concept of "privilege" in this case. Like, at all.
Ehh, some people hear the word "privilege" and interpret it as meaning that they've led a charmed life. (Hence, "unexamined.")