The Big Picture: On The Subject Of Violence

[[Insert Name Here]]

Damn right, Bob. Damn right.

 

[beniki]

I feel like I'm not smart enough to be talking about this. But I've always thought that casual cruelty was just a feature of the world, along with casual kindness. Some people just have more of either in them.

But even though I largely agree with you Bob, I work with children. They're increasingly looking up to darker anti-heroes... just look at Twilight. Blood sucking monsters are now seen as teenage girl bait, without any of the malice of their previous incarnations. In peoples bid to build more 'gritty' and 'realistic' role models, we're losing some of the white knights that balance them out.

All I can say is that I'm glad the Avengers worked. Captain America may be boring to some people, but I've always like the fact he was, at heart, jut a nice guy, trying to do his best. Need some more of that doing good for the sake of doing good, to balance out the Jokers of the world.

 

[lastjustice]

This horrible event might have taken place...but look at how many 24 year old males go to the movies and nothing bad happens. I have gone to the movies between 50-100 times over the course of my life and nothing bad has ever happened to me besides seeing the Blair Witch project heh. Things like what happened in Colorado are really quite rare. The notion we should strive to change anything as a direct result one of lone person's actions is madness. In my mind we really did let him win if we gave his actions that much weight. I'd rather celebrate that our collective society strives to function as intented than let the Dark Nut Rising get me down.

The fact is everything in our houses can be turned into a weapon. Every sword can be made into a plowshare and vice versa. With enough intelligence and imagination there's nothing on the planet that can save you from someone wanting to make you dead if they want it to happen bad enough. There's not enough laws that you can pass to stop death. Laws don't magically make all illegal objects disappear like some sort of enchantment as they only exist when there's someone there to uphold them. If someone is willing kill other people which is illegal...what's breaking one more law to achieve said crime? They already don't care enough to let the first things stop them....tacking on a few more offenses isn't going bring anyone back to life.

Bottomline most people kind of like the world as it is enough to not want to burn everything to the ground and want to live more than they want to try to end another person's live. People want to live and prosper more often than not. If we continue to create amazing things and not regulate ourselves into stagnation then may be people will have enough reason to stick around and create things to add to this wonderful interactive game we call life. Inspiring a better life is our greatest weapon against tragedy. People have things to lose are least likely to throw it all away. So I choose to make the world as awesome as I can. Living well will always be the best revenge.

I'd rather live in a world where the periodic bad days happen but we are allowed to truly live for as long as we're here than live in a world where regulation keeps us from having a life worth while that we might as well be dead since I wouldn't call what we're doing living.

 

[Extragorey]

Bravo, Bob. Well spoken and to the point.

I wonder if we could show this Big Picture to everyone who wants to censor the arts? It might (hopefully) get people to stop rushing into decisions on censorship based off an emotional backlash.

Great piece, Bob.

And of course there's one more obvious argument: if there are two books that can claim to have inspired more nutcases to commit atrocities than any others, they are the Bible and the Quran. If we're going to go about banning things because they 'might' give homicidal lunatics bad ideas, we'd be pretty much duty bound to start there.

I had to edit this post after reading this. I think it might actually be interesting to bring up this point whenver we see some religious group acting like idiots...like the WBC or One Million Moms for example. (Okay, granted OMM isn't a religious group, but the way they've been acting, you almost have to wonder...)

The Bible is a history book. If you think banning all the books recording our history - such as WWII books detailing all of Hitler's actions - will solve the issue, then be my guest. But don't lump it in with all the articles of modern media that are likely to inspire a homicidal lunatic to action, because history books and works of art are two entirely separate matters.

 

[Extragorey]

2) Our system of laws have evolved around punishment, not prevention.​

The prevention of crimes is essentially a secondary pursuit, and is only permissible when it does not infringe on personal liberty. In other words, when a person has broken the social contract by committing a crime, that person has forfeited his/her liberties and will be imprisoned. It is far more difficult to justify violating a person's liberties before they've committed a crime.

Is anyone else thinking about how prevention laws worked out for them in Minority Report [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181689/]?

Spoiler: Mild spoilers

Sure, the movie is a bit far-fetched, but even with their "technology" (by which I mean a group of people that could see the future), they ultimately decided that crime prevention was a futile effort and they might as well let people have their freedom. (Okay, that's a very sketchy summary, but still...)

That said, however, I have previously made the comment that in this particular scenario (the Colorado killings), there would have been much higher casualties if other members of the audience had guns on their person. As they surely would have returned fire, a chaotic multiway crossfire would have quickly escalated to mass carnage.

 

[Jester076]

Hands down one of the most amazing, compelling, and heroically intelligent arguments I have EVER heard. Reactionary sensors and policy makers should give ear to this amazing summation of the simple truth of our society and culture.

 

[karamazovnew]

Well Bob, I don't agree with you here.
When you call games and movies "art", surely you're not thinking of the 99% of crap out there. Very few titles are made for the sake of art, most are made for money. Cheap violence sells, but most of the violent titles have a... "crappy" feel to them. They're so far from the real normal world that even a deranged person would not become inspired by them. So yeah, banning or controlling violence in such movies would be pointless and stupid. I'd rather ban the soft porn in the TV series which I find more disturbing and dangerous. The fact that we can have a movie like Shutter Island, the Prestige and Inception (just off the top of my mind) without tits, but Game of Thrones feels the need to get full nudity in the first episode, just because tits sell more easily than swords, is sickening.

Well, out of the thousands of corporate releases, out of the "lets put as much blood as we can because we need to sell 5 million copies, or we go bust", we sometimes get things like the "No Russian" level. Or "The Dark Knight". These are art, these titles actually say something. They have a lot of weight in our current times. Yes it's amazing, yes they're an art form, more Grosse Fuge than Fur Elise, but still. Wow. If banning and censoring would lead to the extinction of such moments it would be a sad day for us all.

But here's where I don't agree with you. The Message! Yes, they speak to us. But what do they actually say? How would a normal guy interpret that message, how would a deranged loner interpret it? You call it art, but remember that a LOT of people, young and old get 90% of their education from movies and games. Sad. The Media can be blamed on a lot of things (unjustly most of the times) mainly because it's something we are all exposed to. So when something goes wrong in this world, the Media is the first suspect. A hardcore satanic music band might make a few teens slashing their wrists because it's cool, some off-the-counter Jap horror movie or rape game might inspire a serial killer, but these are not mainstream. Mainstream media is shaped by our society, but our society is also influenced by mainstream media. I'm sorry Bob, but movie and game producers really need to think twice about what messages they want to transmit. They have the power to literally bend our feeble minds and it's high time they decided what kind of world they want to share and what kind of world they want to live in. And what, do you think I'm talking about the Joker? Ben Stiller jokes anyone? American Pie, anyone? How many BAD movies do you have to review? How many BAD movies which sell more than good ones and continue to be made? In the sea of 99% crap, that 1% of art transcends and gathers strength. If all movies were great, their impact would lessen. Is it such a wonder then that a deranged but intelligent teen was inspired by The Joker? You know, the "first ever cool BAD guy"? And do I need to quote him? Fine!

"Don't talk like one of them...You're not! Even if you'd like to be. To them, you're just a freak, like me! They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper! You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."
- The Joker

Oh yeah, nobody saw THAT coming...

External censorship is not the way. But producers must censor themselves.

 

[Milanezi]

Does any one know what could have prevented the Denver incident? GUN CONTROL!!


PSh, the forums suddenly look a lot more "slick". That's nice

Nowway has gun control, that did not prevented their tragedy.

Brazil has gun control, we have violence running loose 24/7... See a sick minded freak wants to kill someone, he can buy the gun at the store, if you have gun control, he'll buy the same gun, cheaper, without the serial number, in the black market, like most criminals do. Just check at what them psychos do when they want to blow stuff up: they find a way to make their own bomb.

 

[GamemasterAnthony]

Bravo, Bob. Well spoken and to the point.

I wonder if we could show this Big Picture to everyone who wants to censor the arts? It might (hopefully) get people to stop rushing into decisions on censorship based off an emotional backlash.

Great piece, Bob.

And of course there's one more obvious argument: if there are two books that can claim to have inspired more nutcases to commit atrocities than any others, they are the Bible and the Quran. If we're going to go about banning things because they 'might' give homicidal lunatics bad ideas, we'd be pretty much duty bound to start there.

I had to edit this post after reading this. I think it might actually be interesting to bring up this point whenver we see some religious group acting like idiots...like the WBC or One Million Moms for example. (Okay, granted OMM isn't a religious group, but the way they've been acting, you almost have to wonder...)

The Bible is a history book. If you think banning all the books recording our history - such as WWII books detailing all of Hitler's actions - will solve the issue, then be my guest. But don't lump it in with all the articles of modern media that are likely to inspire a homicidal lunatic to action, because history books and works of art are two entirely separate matters.

Yeah, but the point Flatfrog was trying to make was that it's ludicrous to ban anything just because of what MIGHT happen, and the same argument can be made for records of...wait just a phrack!

*breaks out a bullhorn* ATTENTION EXTRAGOREY! A RELIGIOUS TOME IS NOT A HISTORICAL DOCUMENT! IT IS A WORK BASED ON THE RELIGION'S BELIEF OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE WORLD AS A MEANS OF GIVING LIFE LESSONS, NOT AN ACCURATE ACCOUNT OF WHAT ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE!

Oy...I hate when people do that.

Anyways, what he was saying is that it's just as ludicrous to apply the same "logic" to religious tomes and historical documents as well. True, one could make the argument what with the existance of Al-Qaida (sp?) and Neo-Nazis, but you can't seriously expect anyone to believe that the writer of the tome or document expected this to happen. If this point was brought up to certain religious groups and historians, they would agree.

 

[trophykiller]

Does any one know what could have prevented the Denver incident? GUN CONTROL!!


PSh, the forums suddenly look a lot more "slick". That's nice

He would have found a way to get guns anyhow. I mean he rigged his apartment to blow. He seems like he knew how to get things.

The law in the city he was at, Aurora, is a bad joke. Drugs, weapons, prostitution, all being sold shamelessly on the streets. There's an average of 3 car accidents every day because no one knows the meaning of respect... It really is a terrible place.

If you're from more civilized parts of Colorado, such as Denver, just a walk down the street will disgust you. Example: just driving from one intersection to another, I saw 2 acts of public urination, a group of obvious meth-heads shooting up at a bus stop, and a guy who looked like something out of Fallout(patched clothing + shotgun on his back). And when we got to the intersection, there was a car crash.

In short, Aurora sucks. While I am shocked by this tragic shooting, I'm not shocked that it happened in Aurora. 6th highest crime rate in America + Colorado's history of rampages = another tragedy.

 

[Milanezi]

Does any one know what could have prevented the Denver incident? GUN CONTROL!!


PSh, the forums suddenly look a lot more "slick". That's nice

Nowway has gun control, that did not prevented their tragedy.

Brazil has gun control, we have violence running loose 24/7... See a sick minded freak wants to kill someone, he can buy the gun at the store, if you have gun control, he'll buy the same gun, cheaper, without the serial number, in the black market, like most criminals do. Just check at what them psychos do when they want to blow stuff up: they find a way to make their own bomb.

Well Bob, I don't agree with you here.
When you call games and movies "art", surely you're not thinking of the 99% of crap out there. Very few titles are made for the sake of art, most are made for money. Cheap violence sells, but most of the violent titles have a... "crappy" feel to them. They're so far from the real normal world that even a deranged person would not become inspired by them. So yeah, banning or controlling violence in such movies would be pointless and stupid. I'd rather ban the soft porn in the TV series which I find more disturbing and dangerous. The fact that we can have a movie like Shutter Island, the Prestige and Inception (just off the top of my mind) without tits, but Game of Thrones feels the need to get full nudity in the first episode, just because tits sell more easily than swords, is sickening.

Well, out of the thousands of corporate releases, out of the "lets put as much blood as we can because we need to sell 5 million copies, or we go bust", we sometimes get things like the "No Russian" level. Or "The Dark Knight". These are art, these titles actually say something. They have a lot of weight in our current times. Yes it's amazing, yes they're an art form, more Grosse Fuge than Fur Elise, but still. Wow. If banning and censoring would lead to the extinction of such moments it would be a sad day for us all.

But here's where I don't agree with you. The Message! Yes, they speak to us. But what do they actually say? How would a normal guy interpret that message, how would a deranged loner interpret it? You call it art, but remember that a LOT of people, young and old get 90% of their education from movies and games. Sad. The Media can be blamed on a lot of things (unjustly most of the times) mainly because it's something we are all exposed to. So when something goes wrong in this world, the Media is the first suspect. A hardcore satanic music band might make a few teens slashing their wrists because it's cool, some off-the-counter Jap horror movie or rape game might inspire a serial killer, but these are not mainstream. Mainstream media is shaped by our society, but our society is also influenced by mainstream media. I'm sorry Bob, but movie and game producers really need to think twice about what messages they want to transmit. They have the power to literally bend our feeble minds and it's high time they decided what kind of world they want to share and what kind of world they want to live in. And what, do you think I'm talking about the Joker? Ben Stiller jokes anyone? American Pie, anyone? How many BAD movies do you have to review? How many BAD movies which sell more than good ones and continue to be made? In the sea of 99% crap, that 1% of art transcends and gathers strength. If all movies were great, their impact would lessen. Is it such a wonder then that a deranged but intelligent teen was inspired by The Joker? You know, the "first ever cool BAD guy"? And do I need to quote him? Fine!

"Don't talk like one of them...You're not! Even if you'd like to be. To them, you're just a freak, like me! They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper! You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."
- The Joker

Oh yeah, nobody saw THAT coming...

External censorship is not the way. But producers must censor themselves.

What Nolan did with his Joker was wonderful, and proof of why they should NOT censor themselves: the joker touches the morality as presented by Immanuel Kant, that is, if you wish to do something unlawful, but restrain yourself due to the simple fact that, well, it IS unlawful, then you're not a moral person, and you're not better than the person who acted on his will. Morality would reside on he who acts within the moral boundaries that society has set both in the "world of ideas" and the "natural world", that is to say, you act within the law because that's your true wish. The Joker believes that, only he throws caution to the wind by implying "since I'm immoral (or in his case, we might even consider the term "amoral") anyway, there's no reason for me to restrain myself", The Joker is truly free, he doesn't hold back on any of his impulses and wishes, he acts upon them immediately, with no regard AT ALL, for any values set by society, in that freedom he becomes unpredictable, a danger to everyone, even himself. Now, most of the audience has never heard of Immanuel Kant or at least read his work with due attention, philosophy is highly overlooked in modern days, Nolan did a wonderful thing by getting the "core" of one of Kant's main theses and building it into a pop culture character, one that's an easy grip for the crowd; no complicated theories, no complex words and phrases, just the actions of a famous comic book villain and there you have it: one of the most important philosophical theories of all times, its message, has been delivered to anyone who saw an ACTION movie. So basically, no censorship, demented humans are everywhere, and they don't really care who they'll "incarnate" in order to strike.

 

[XDravond]

*snip* due to wall of text

I'm sorry (or not ;-) but I'm gonna quote myself
"But gun control is more likely just a part in the solution to start with, best is education and/or banging some sense in to people.
You don't need a guns, you need intelligent people whom understand that since you don't have a gun they don't either....

But why am I arguing it probably wont change anyones mind and "Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you whit experience.".... =D"

....
Gun control isn't the perfect solution to gun related murders, but why does guns have to be?
If no one has a gun, including the gangs etc, who (in the whole world) would kill you with a gun?
And yes guns are effective against government tyranny, but how much would you bet that the "uprising" wouldn't just lead to anarchy instead? and is that not more or less the same thing?
People need to learn to talk more to solve problems and also listen more.

I'm not saying ban all guns, but how many times have any uprising solved the "problems" without having the army on your side?
And how many times have guns been used to protection vs assault (vs related accidents)


But guns isn't the main problem it's the attitude of a few that endangers the rest that somehow needs to be changed, Switzerland is one quite good example of this they somehow have the same or less gun problems. So I would go over and check what's so different. If it's the gangs or other crime related people then thats what you need to focus on how to solve the current polices is quite obvious not working since people in USA feels so unsafe that they need guns.
I don't live in USA and I don't think I need a gun to defend myself against neither the government nor the people because I believe I'm safe enough.
And if it's the poverty that's the problem help us "anti gun nuts" find a good solution to that "problem" and how is having a gun solving it?

Last question:
When was the last time you visited a place where you had to use a seatbelt whilst in a moving car?....
(giving up the freedom for safety again...)

Hope I clarified my views a bit ie gun control isn't the best solution but USA has way to much crime (compared to a modern "western" country) to be perfect and guns is a part so until someone manages to find a way to make people not doing any crime it's perhaps a good start.
And I'm not saying you're wrong I just need a better solution (to the feeling unsafe problem) before I change my mind.
I do also know that most people are not murdering maniacs even in USA but why give the few such an easy time...
"Live long and prosper" =D
(and sorry for the wall of personal opinion and fact-less text) ;-)

 

[trophykiller]

Epic snip]

This. This is well documented, logical, and intelligent. I applaud you, good sir.

 

[DisasterArea42]

Well Bob, I don't agree with you here.
When you call games and movies "art", surely you're not thinking of the 99% of crap out there. Very few titles are made for the sake of art, most are made for money.

If people like MB are going to stand up for games as art, they accept they take the good with the bad, the Bioshock with the Modern Warfare, the Portal with the Madden. You can't pick and choose what is art and what isn't.

OT: Great episode Bob. Hat is off, standing ovation, nothing to add that wasn't in the video or in the previous comments on here

 

[mionic]

I need to hug Bob.
Seriously.

 

[Swarmcrow]

It kinda reminds me what I said to defend games in front of my mother
"Give a madman spoon and he'll kill his neighbors, his family and then himself with this spoon"
Fact is that inadequate people will find "inspiration" to hurt and kill innocent people in anything
Ban everything and they will start to look at stars at night and weather changes
(I personally believe that it is how first religions started. "People, you all know that there was no rain for some time, but in stars I saw the answers to our troubles. We need to burn all of our young women and then gods will send rain to us. And I must emphasize, this NOT because they all declined my marriage proposals, and I'm NOT worthless human being, THIS IS THE WILL OF GODS and I am their voice." And so on. I dare you to prove me wrong)

ok I normally defend religion cause most of the time I just think people are just using it as an escape goat to pretend that Humans are not a bunch bloodthirsty pretentious jerks but you sir just said one of the coolest & scariest ideas I have ever heard

 

[MovieBob]

...Wait, the Oslo guy said that MW2 was just a way to train, not a motivation like the Colorado guy, its written right there in the quote. That pretty much makes it an invalid example for this video.

 

[Bato]

Violent art does hurt those who are mentally unstable, who don't naturally have these barriers against these things in the form of common sense.
But a madman will always find the muse for his madness, no matter what it is.

 

[Howling Din]

There's a time for seriousness and a time for frivolity, and a wise man understands which is called for.
Well done, Bob. Good of you to step up and speak your mind. No opinion is perfect, but forming one out of insight and reasoning is a huge step in the right direction.