The Big Picture: Pink Is Not The Problem

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Helmholtz Watson

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MovieBob said:
Where is "natural order" then, other than where it belongs - bent to will of those with the vision and temerity to do the bending?
And who's will should it be bent towards? Who gets to do the bending? Do only people with Western Liberal values get to do this, or is it free to everybody, including people who don't have western values? Do they have the right to bend the will to their vision, or is this "bending of will" a right that only occidental countries are allowed to have?

I only ask because too often it seems like some people are more than happy in wanting to mimic Mao Zedong's[footnote]To clarify, I'm not saying that people want to mimic Mao's violence towards innocent people, just his attitude towards traditional Chinese culture.[/footnote] "relationship" with traditional Chinese culture, by come up with their own "four olds" and supporting the idea of a Cultural Revolution(red guards and all). What about those of us that don't support this cultural revolution, and those of us that don't agree on what should be considered the "four olds"?
 

Something Amyss

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I went into this and the first part of the video with the problem that people rarely (if ever) claim that pink itself is the problem, and I stand by that. However, the greater context here is important and I do appreciate that. It's interesting that, in making strong female characters, we still go on to portray everything feminine as bad, which is kind of the problem in the first place. Though at least women are getting some exposure.
 

nondescript

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Darmani said:
nondescript said:
Best deconstruction ever.

I see lot's of this at my (retail) job - even more now that I'm helping in apparel. Kids getting told a shoe is "too girly" or "looks like a boys shoe," girls turning down a camo shirt since it has a pink stripe or a boys onesie that has feminine drawings. I've even been asked to find another coworker, because the customer didn't want to talk to a man!

I understand that if you want to be "girlie" or "macho" that's your choice and okay. What bothers me is when they treat their opinion as law.
This is how it starts but its not invalid. Not wanting a man to dress your girl is.. well its just plain NORMAL not wanting strange men that intimate when you're just there to buy stuff! As is some female and male grouping and emulation.
Sure, sure, I get that... but do you freak out if the opposite gender shows up and assists you at a retail store in finding pants? Shoes? A hat?
This is what ticks me off. I get people getting weirded out if I tried in intimate apparel, but I show them the article, I say I'll be available to help and will check back. And this freaks them out. I'm not stripping anyone down and dressing them.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Okay, I haven't watched the video, and I don't want to watch the video because I'm sick of Bob drum beating this issue. I just want to comment on all the people just nodding their heads with an argument he made that feminine is seen as evil... What the fudge media have any of you been freaking watching for the last 20 years?! You're going to just look at The Penguin in Batman while ignoring Killer Croc? I don't even feel like listing off more examples, this should be flipping obvious to every single person here! Even in DBZ, Frieza's final form at full power is super muscular and testosterone filled. Is there something that's in the video that people aren't talking about here?
 

CymbaIine

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Farther than stars said:
CymbaIine said:
Farther than stars said:
That's actually quite an offensive way to it. I appreciate that you firmly stand on the side of 'vanity is bad', but plenty of accredited feminists do not. MovieBob's intelligence should not be pulled into question on this point. The main reason why the 'vanity is bad' argument is problematic, is that 'it is OK to have fun'. If wearing make-up makes you happy, you should be allowed to do that, the same way that it's OK for me to play a round of FTL if I get enjoyment out of it. In that same instance, it is progressive to make short shrift of the attitude that 'video games are something for kids'. Even utilitarianism does away with functionality at the moment that it impedes on human happiness.
I didn't question his intelligence, he seems like an intelligent guy. He just doesn't seem to have a very good grasp on this particular issue.

I don't think "vanity is bad" and "video games are for kids" are at all equivocal. Who are the accredited feminists that disagree with me? I would be genuinely interested to read what they have to say.
Well, I would advise reading up on Lipstick Feminism in general, but if you're looking for specific writers, most prominent feminists actually take a stance along the lines of: society shouldn't expect women to conform to beauty standards, but women should be allowed to choose how they act and dress. Naomi Wolf springs to mind as a fairly prominent contemporary writer who holds this position.
The way in which 'vanity' and 'playing video games' are similar is that they're both personal choices that, in principle, shouldn't be prohibited by society. If you would want to limit that choice, you would need to prove that vanity is more damaging to society than taking away the personal happiness that someone derives from being vane.
Yeah I read The Beauty Myth at uni. Naomi Wolf certainly does not say vanity is good. I don't think women wearing make up is bad, but conditioning girls from a young age to think that make-up, hair dye, nail polish, a tan etc etc (and could literally go on for pages) is normal is a bad thing.
 

Spearmaster

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All I get from this video is that Bob is unhappy with the current idealized gender oppression, whats his alternative? is it to replace it with his own idealized gender oppression proclaiming that it is more right in some way without even a shred of reason other than he has the vision and temerity?

Nobody take this the wrong way but Adolf Hitler had lots of vision and temerity and he did a lot of bending.

People need to stop insisting their personal ideals are superior to any others, just live YOUR life, be an example, not an oppressor, the world would be a better place and if enough people truly feel the same way then the world will change on its own.
 

Sotanaht

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I'm thinking that his point about villains being coded female is opposite the issue. I think what you see in something like Hunger Games is less villains being evil because of female coding and more about female coding being applied to negative traits like vanity, hedonism and excess. Nothing wrong about using obviously negative traits to characterize an obviously bad guy, the problem is actually about people calling those traits feminine.
 

Ghostknightxii

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*SPOILER ALERT* If u have not read the followup article to his review on Frozen, disregard this following paragraph.

Has anyone noticed that in Frozen, the main antagonist actually portrays male archetypes that are generally associated as being "good"? And is probably why it is such an effective twist near the end. I know Bob didn't mention it directly but i'm willing to bet dollars to donuts it is what got the hamster turning in his head.
 

m64

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This episode sounds largely like a distraction tactic. "Here's a much bigger issue, so this small issue here does not matter." Yes, Bob, I agree that using feminine traits to mark something evil is a horrible and perhaps even more insidious trend. But this does not change the fact that forcing women into stereotypes right from their childhood is bad too and way too widespread to be tolerated. I don't want my daughter to consider her femininity bad, but I also don't want her to cap her life ambitions at "husband, kids and a well kept house" because that's what her toys and kid's movies told her she should aspire to.
 

Darmani

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That's what ALL toys aspire to with the side effect of "kill bad guys along way" more for boys *sometimes.* Both inspire people to be the best. Barbie is into sports people! So is Princess PEach. Guys quest to save their girlfriends to be with them happily ever after and etc. Its adult and more seeming stories that expand. Hell forget gay relationships growing up I was annoyed it seemed being SINGLE or NOT PARENTS was unthinkable and empty or at least not as explored or celebrated. Even with my interest in guys my interest in people and personal interaction has oscillated like mad.
 

nuttshell

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Farther than stars said:
I'm British, but that's besides the point.
I allready explained to another poster here, that I didn't mean to undermine your argument. I shouldve deleted your name and post number in the first place, sorry.

If certain practices, such as men wearing lipstick, are accepted in other parts of the world, then that's great for those other parts of the world, but that still leaves us with the problem that they're not universally accept in the West.
It's beginning to change. If you remember the Grunge and Metal movement, you will notice that since then, long hair with men was quickly growing popular. Eyeshadow and stylish hair have grown popular with the Emo movement.

As to the point on women dominating cosmetics, I'm missing a link. How exactly does 'men being a larger part of the workforce' lead to 'women becoming more involved with cosmetics'?
Because women simply had enough time to do it and didn't need to maintain a practical approach to body care. Especially the idea of the "American Dream", envisioned a family in which the man provides at work/war and the woman breeds more children for work/war.

So why is it specifically here that the cosmetics industry has developed so exponentially?
Because the west doesn't have wars in it. The wars, the west fights are fought oversees. The people at home live fairly protected, fairly rich lives. There are also other factors here, like the entertaining industry benefiting the cosmetic industry.
 

clearasmoonlight

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There's a lot of discussion of the gender binary going on in this thread, a lot of which is really interesting. But while binary transgender people have been mentioned, I've noticed that no one has mentioned genderqueer people yet. Being genderqueer/non-binary-gendered myself, I thought I would mention that people like me exist, and that we can perhaps be taken as more evidence towards the gender binary being more of a social construct than something hardwired into human biology.

First of all, a primer for anyone who's unfamiliar with the term "genderqueer": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

And a couple more for anyone who's unclear on the idea of gender identity versus gender expression: https://www.genderspectrum.org/understanding-gender (Scroll down to the "Gender Terminology" section for the definitions.)

For me, being genderqueer means that I don't identify as either male or female. Because of that, I definitely think of my gender as separate from my biological sex -- those two things don't match up for me, and never have. That has led me to experience to what's generally called gender dysphoria these days. Basically, it's a feeling that the sex of my physical body doesn't fit with how I feel as a person on the inside. This is an issue that affects the majority of trans* spectrum people, including many genderqueer people.

I'll use some anecdotes to try to illustrate what I'm talking about, since I know this is a strange concept for most people who've never questioned their own gender. When I was a kid, I didn't feel like either a little girl or a little boy. I didn't prefer to play with either girls or boys and didn't really understand why I was supposed to dislike and stop playing with the opposite sex when I reached the age where that became a thing. I played with a pretty wide variety of toys, but tended to avoid anything that felt to me very masculine or feminine -- e.g. playing team sports and playing with dolls had equally low appeal for me. For as long as I can remember, I dreamed of being able to shapeshift so that I wouldn't have to always be the sex I was born as -- so that I wouldn't always been seen as being a girl or a boy 100% of the time. I wanted to be able to switch back and forth, or, best of all, not have to be either.

When I hit puberty and my body started to develop secondary sex characteristics, I absolutely hated it. I hated that I was now much more obviously one sex and not the other, and began to really loathe my body for the way it was changing. (I'm still working through a lot of those issues, but things are slowly getting better now that I at least have a word to describe my gender identity.) But the idea of switching to the opposite sex and being treated as the opposite gender has never seemed like it would be a real escape for me. It doesn't matter whether people are reading and treating me as male for female: in either case, they're probably going to make a lot of assumptions about how a man or a woman "should" behave, unconsciously ascribe those assumptions to me, and possibly treat me negatively for the ways in which I don't live up to them. (This is what's often called "behaviour policing" -- e.g., "You can't wear makeup and like stuffed animals! You're a man!" and "You can't have a buzz cut and work as a mechanic! You're a woman!" Though it's often not that overt. A real-life example I encountered recently is an older transgender woman I was talking to recently, who firmly believes that any transgender woman who goes out without full makeup and her hair done perfectly is "making [trans* women] look bad". To me, all of those feel like specious arguments without any basis in anything except (Western, in my case) cultural constructs. Why do we see these things as inherently masculine and feminine in the first place? And why do so many people seem invested in making sure that people don't express a gender that is considered different from their biological sex? I haven't yet been able to find a convincing reason for why these unspoken rules exist, except, essentially tradition (aka, "but it's always been that way!") And I'm always reluctant to accept tradition as a valid reason for things remaining as they currently are.)

About ten years ago, I finally came across the term "genderqueer" online, and it was an epiphany for me. "So there are other people out there who don't identify as either male or female? It's not just that I'm a freak, or terrible at being the gender I'm "supposed" to be? And I don't have to decide to be the opposite gender just because I'm not comfortable with my current one? Awesome!" It's been a long road, but these days I'm finally out as genderqueer to my friends and family (some of whom are even being wonderful enough to start calling me "they" rather than "he" or "she"), and I'm working on getting my gender expression more in line with my identity. (It's a discovery process, but it's really empowering to finally feel like I can ignore the people who try to tell me that the way I look makes me a bad example of my binary gender. Because I don't have a binary gender, so hah, your criticism means nothing to me anymore!) Probably needless to say at this point, I feel strongly that the gender binary is far more a social construct that something hardwired into the human brain. Otherwise, it seems unlikely that people like me would even exist -- and we definitely do.

So there's my two cents from outside the binary. I hope it's a helpful contribution to the discussion. If anyone has questions, please feel free to ask. I'm generally not easy to offend.
 

InvisibleMan

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Ronack said:
The thing about The Hunger Games is that it isn't coded Male and Female, but rather Rich and Poor. It's a commentary on our modern society. Just look at what the Rich are wearing, ffs. Those looks are straight from some designers runway. Butt ugly and expensive as fuck, but the rich still buy it because rich. Whilst the poor need to work their ass off to survive, having to fight against the system by the rich in the meantime.
Agreed... "Remember who the real enemy is" refers to the rich, not the effeminate.
 

generals3

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Specter Von Baren said:
Okay, I haven't watched the video, and I don't want to watch the video because I'm sick of Bob drum beating this issue. I just want to comment on all the people just nodding their heads with an argument he made that feminine is seen as evil... What the fudge media have any of you been freaking watching for the last 20 years?! You're going to just look at The Penguin in Batman while ignoring Killer Croc? I don't even feel like listing off more examples, this should be flipping obvious to every single person here! Even in DBZ, Frieza's final form at full power is super muscular and testosterone filled. Is there something that's in the video that people aren't talking about here?
And let's not forget that ultimately if it's true that media affect people they shot their own arguments in the foot. Indeed who are people the most afraid of? Male strangers or female strangers? If masculinity was always associated with "good" and "femininity" with "evil" than people would always walk over to the other side of the street when there is a group of women!

And yeah... what kind of media do people to watch to actually come to the conclusion they're portraying femininity as evil? I've watched a buttload of action movies which involve "villains" and the vast majority of them are manly men. But I guess exceptions make the rule if it makes a point?
 

HappyRat

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May 13, 2013
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A dozen or so mentions of the pink aisle and no pony references? Hmmm, color me mildly surprised. Not upset, just surprised.

I'm really impressed with Bob on this. Usually his sociopolitical rants are just skimmed from Reddit and very SJW type stuff, but this shows a deep understanding of the complexity of the issue at hand, and even how some of the exterior forces trying to change it are causing reinforcing unintended consequences. That kind of clarity on ANY issue would be awesome. People are jerks. Blame people. Hello Kitty isn't intrinsically gay. Pressure cookers aren't intrinsically WMDs.

Kudos bob, kudos.

I will say though, that while the gay villain trope is still strong and kicking, and while this was mostly a jab at The Hunger Games, there are plenty of counterexamples. In The Fifth Element, Ruby Rod is undeniably effeminate (despite being a shock jock who hits on women), even screaming in falsetto like a woman at times, but he is not a villain, in fact he and testosmacho Bruce Willis team up through much of the third act together, playing off each other like it's a buddy-cop film. While the real villains are an evil star, Gary Oldman as a lame semi-effeminate arms dealer with a southern draw and shape-shifting lame-brained muscular alien orc types.

I'm sure that's not the only example, but the first I could think of.