The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[Ukomba]

Is Movie Bob really making the argument that Idris Elba is only Heimdall as an amends for slavery? The man was good, you don't have to justify it beyond that, you're actually detracting from his success when you do.

 

[DawnSR]

The problem is that there people make it into a problem.
As soon as you look at the movie and say hey why did they cast a black guy for that role, you are the problem.

 

[Dansrage]

Funny how 'historical precedence' immediately gets equated by stupid white bigots as 'SINS OF THE FATHER' as they desperately try to rationalize their own biases and dismiss the concept of white privilege. Funny and sad, obviously. Stupid is as stupid does.

Bite me, i'm not a racist and i'm not guilty of a damn thing, i just don't like being forced to feel guilty for something i never took part in.
Sins of the fathers indeed.

You missed the point again.

It's not about the sins of the father, its about the cultural nonequivalence which is the direct result of generations of racism. That makes it morally responsible to recast a white character as black, yet not the other way around. If this makes you feel somehow slighted, that is the hard-wired white privilege which has been ingrained in your subconscious through years of the cultural doctrine of white superiority. Word of the wise: Get over it, because the world is getting over you.

White privelage is a joke, i don't see black people being held back or opressed, i see affirmative action, black-only scholarship programs, black history month, every conceivable kind of helping hand to get underprivelaged poor black children decent educations, but very little of the same for anyone else.

Equality does not mean giving one group more than another, the defenition of equality means equal rights for everyone, which is just not happening.

 

[kelevra]

Great show Bob.

 

[cardinalwiggles]

moviebob sure likes his "wierd" voice...... at first was funny started to get old with the voice we get it. wierdness

 

[kuyo]

Naturally Ponyville is an ideal world; why didn't I notice it before?

Actually, Equestria totally does have racism and bigotry as evidenced by Ponyville's vitriol for magic, the frontier ponies stealing the buffalo's land, and everyone shitting bricks when a zebra comes to town.
I don't think it's such a big deal changing anime characters race since they're all Japanese and the few people of other ethnicity are blatantly offensive caricatures. (The few black people in anime are rapists.)

 

[slowzombie]

well done bob, it kinda took me a second to tell what the slave ship was when i first saw it. i say race swap of characters is ok when they arent too big and already have long back story, in other words i wouldnt be so sure of a black superman since hes such a big character by himself that changing race would alter too much (idk if it does since hes an alien) but its perfectly fine, if not great, if minor or secondary characters change race. i dont care much of the thor character being change since i dont follow comics, but i can sort of see how it can cause some upsets not racially but being dedicated fans. its like the gay dumbledore thing where i kinda decided to ignore it since dumbledore didnt have any sexual emphasis and overall did not matter to him as a character, but on the other hand using superman if he had become black it would cause akwardness because it would cause all of krypton to be black (im guessing kypton was a single race planet, if not just his parents then). whatever in this case it was ok for artistic freedom.

 

[rancher of monsters]

So according to Bob, embracing double standards is the only real way to treat our popular culture's derth of interesting or complex minority characters. So changing a Norse god's race was preferable to creating a new character who is black. Thor had an entire Earth-based realm that was set in modern day America, and yet it was less culturally diverse than Asgard.
This strikes me as a kind of racism in and of itself. It is as though you do not trust minorities or those who write them to create a new and unique character on their own, so you have to "gift" them characters who have already been created. You are allowing them to "prove" their racial equity only through the appropriation of another race's character. It's like if a black African chef wanted to prove his worth in a French kitchen, but rather than let him make his own recipe, gave him a recipe already perfected by a white French cook. This betrays an astounding amount of condescention on the part of anyone who argues this way.
Honestly, some characters can be changed and can benefit from said change in the long run. I think Spider-Man as a young black kid from Queens makes a lot of sense and could be interesting because this is the real world, and that character is set to reflect modern ideas and experience. A Norse god, however, seems to resist this change. Instead, we should be trying to create characters grounded in a racial identity, so "appropriation" instead becomes "creation."

I do like parts of your arguement, but I think we'll have to wait a while for any new substantial ethnic characters in the realm of comics, and I tell you why. Many of the most famous comic book characters, the ones the cartoons and movies are made from, are very old, the youngest about thirty years. many of them predate even the earliest days of racial sensitivity, and DC has been known to have vocal racist (as in, edit background characters so that they were white, moved all black people in the universe he wrote in to a segragated island, racist) writing characters. When the first batches of ethnic characters came around in the 70's they were laughable stereotypes, such as Apache Cheif (who's power had nothing to do with his name or Native American garb), The Samurai (who's powers had nothing to do with his name or somewhat Japanese clothing), Black Vulcan (Insert smae bullshit here), and El Dorado (See before). Marvel did better at times, but they were still far from perfect. The Falcon, was a pimp or something at one point and Luke Cage was a jive-talking mercenary.

Now Marvel and DC both hold a major monopoly on the heroes we are introduced to. And it's highly unlikley that they are going to hire ethnic writers solely for the purpose of writing ethinic characters. While minorities could start their own publishing companies to write ethnic characters, that doesn't seem like an idea that is going to do well to me. So for now we're basically stuck with hopeing that whatever white guy (I'm sure they do occasionally have enthic writers, but for the most part, this) is writing are characters at the moment has some racial awareness, and isn't a secret member of the klan.

Now on the subject of Norse Gods, three points can be made. One, nobody is really worshipping Odin anymore, so how upset can we be? It's not like they made Budhha an Inuit Eskimo or turned Jesus gay? Two, Heimdall, to my knowledge, was something of a minor character, I had never heard of him before the controversy, and he only get's about ten minutes of screen time anyway. Three, the Norse gods, as depicted by Marvel, are ALIENS. does it really matter what their norse creators pictured them to be when we've already reduced them to aliens?

My issue, I suppose, is that I don't think we should be writing for minorities, I think we should just be writing them. Pandering and condescending are not the answer here. We need real characters, grounded and informed by their own racial identity, not by the supposed identity of those we want to buy their comics.

My concern about the gods is that they are now members not only of a godly pantheon, but of a historical canon. I actually wrote a massive essay about this for my personal web site. I would link to it, but I have been yelled about posting links on this forum before, so you can just click my name to go to the site and look for it.

As for the aliens thing... I often try not to think about that. It brings up all kinds of biological questions I don't think I have the answers to involving romances like those with Louis Lane and Jane Foster.

I agree, but the fact of the matter is that we aren't writing minority characters. In a perfect world (Insert Ponies) we would be , but for now my choices are either the pandering that you refer to, which I wouldn't label all of it as such, or next to nothing. Some people are writing good minority characters, Generator Rex is one of my favorite cartoons and it stars a hispanic teenager, but many are not, so people are taking what they can get.

I did read parts of your article, but I missed what you might refer to as historical canon. I'm assuming that it's do to the connection between the Norse people and their supposedly (I don't know if they made pictures of or had racially descriptive stories of them) gods. But seeing as we are discussing a myth within a myth (Inception) I'm not sure how seriously we can take it from a historical standpoint.

Also, you have to think about the alien thing, it's at least as big, if not a bigger, a part of this conversation, and marvel canon. Still, it's funny how people will ignore their extraterrestial status, but become philosophical when it comes to their 'race'.

 

[ZombieGenesis]

Funny how 'historical precedence' immediately gets equated by stupid white bigots as 'SINS OF THE FATHER' as they desperately try to rationalize their own biases and dismiss the concept of white privilege. Funny and sad, obviously. Stupid is as stupid does.

Bite me, i'm not a racist and i'm not guilty of a damn thing, i just don't like being forced to feel guilty for something i never took part in.
Sins of the fathers indeed.

You missed the point again.

It's not about the sins of the father, its about the cultural nonequivalence which is the direct result of generations of racism. That makes it morally responsible to recast a white character as black, yet not the other way around. If this makes you feel somehow slighted, that is the hard-wired white privilege which has been ingrained in your subconscious through years of the cultural doctrine of white superiority. Word of the wise: Get over it, because the world is getting over you.

White privelage is a joke, i don't see black people being held back or opressed, i see affirmative action, black-only scholarship programs, black history month, every conceivable kind of helping hand to get underprivelaged poor black children decent educations, but very little of the same for anyone else.

Equality does not mean giving one group more than another, the defenition of equality means equal rights for everyone, which is just not happening.

While I actually agree with you on one level, I feel like there's something that has to be said for another.

Firstly, just like to point out, I live in Winchester England. So the whole 'poor black ghetto' issue doesn't actually exist here, just thought I should make that apparent.

While it's certainly true that the assistance is coming down one sided in a lot of places (in partular with schooling and residency, even international relocation in some instances) I don't think it's fair to say this isn't a step for actual equality. Why is that? Because both sides did not begin on an even ground. Imagine the original disparity that would have existed between all the high class, educated white population and the oppressed, recently liberated blacks who largely still populated the lowest rungs.
If people instantly went to 'okay, lets offer the same benefits to both' then it would still be heavily weighted against the minorities- essentially, because we started off in a better position. I think what a lot of affirmative action is attempting now is to put more unfortunate groups of different ethnicities onto the same 'level'.
There's no denying after all that there are major problems with the highest crust of employment- by and large, old white men from private education still rule in many circles. Within a few generations, perhaps we can change that.

And THEN, going from 'black only scholarship' to 'universal assistance scholarship' might be a more appropriate step. Just my opinion though.

 

[Sutter Cane]

So according to Bob, embracing double standards is the only real way to treat our popular culture's derth of interesting or complex minority characters. So changing a Norse god's race was preferable to creating a new character who is black. Thor had an entire Earth-based realm that was set in modern day America, and yet it was less culturally diverse than Asgard.
This strikes me as a kind of racism in and of itself. It is as though you do not trust minorities or those who write them to create a new and unique character on their own, so you have to "gift" them characters who have already been created. You are allowing them to "prove" their racial equity only through the appropriation of another race's character. It's like if a black African chef wanted to prove his worth in a French kitchen, but rather than let him make his own recipe, gave him a recipe already perfected by a white French cook. This betrays an astounding amount of condescention on the part of anyone who argues this way.
Honestly, some characters can be changed and can benefit from said change in the long run. I think Spider-Man as a young black kid from Queens makes a lot of sense and could be interesting because this is the real world, and that character is set to reflect modern ideas and experience. A Norse god, however, seems to resist this change. Instead, we should be trying to create characters grounded in a racial identity, so "appropriation" instead becomes "creation."

there have also been instances where a race swap to a white person has taken away from unique characters that fall into different ethnicities. foe example, the dragon ball movie where goku is white. The last airbender could have had both unique inuit and asian characters. (although i did like how the fire nation where brown lol )

Bone to pick here. There's nothing about goku that makes him inherently Japanese. In fact not only is Goku not even human, I can't recall a single reference to Japan or any other real country for that matter in the entire series. Also Goku being white didn't take away from his character, the awful acting and script did.

 

[MatsVS]

White privelage is a joke, i don't see black people being held back or opressed, i see affirmative action, black-only scholarship programs, black history month, every conceivable kind of helping hand to get underprivelaged poor black children decent educations, but very little of the same for anyone else.

Equality does not mean giving one group more than another, the defenition of equality means equal rights for everyone, which is just not happening.

Equality is an illusion and that was never the point. How can there be equality when the two parts in question (blacks & whites) have two different starting-points? These "underprivileged poor black children" are the victims of generations of oppression and cultural marginalization, while us white folks are the perpetrators. White privilege is not a joke, it's that ugly thing inside you that makes you sneer when you see people more deserving then yourself get concessions you feel entitled to.

The concept is called equality through inequality. The playing fields much be levelled before the human race as a whole can move past these concepts as true equals. You are in the way.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

I agree almost whole heartedly that in the case of movie casting double standards are fine, seem as Hollywood is only getting theirs for still allowing black actors next to nothing to do in main stream movies.

However, when it stems in to other parts of society, parts that have done their utmost to leave behind the prejudices of the past, it does irk me. I'm going to have to do something similar to Movie Bob here and state before hand that I am NOT RACIST! and that this is not a judgement against anyone who I do not know, but I HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY WITH PEOPLE I DO KNOW SEVERAL TIMES...

Why is it acceptable for a black person, when things are not going their way, to cry racism without any evidence to back up their claims and everyone suddenly treats their word as absolute truth? Again, this is not a judgement against the race as a whole or any black person who I do not know, but just because I am white does not make me a perpetrator of slavery, because I wasn't there. It does not mean that I am a supporter of slavery, I was born into the modern age just like everybody else. It does not even mean that I WOULD have been a supporter of slavery had I been there at the time. So why do I, someone who had nothing to do with all the oppression black people have suffered throughout history, still feel like I have no defense when someone decides to play the race card?

P.S. I still have no problem with Idris Elba though. In fact, I wonder if anyone who has complained about him in Thor has seen Luther. Because if they had, they would know full well that his casting has nothing to do with him being black, but everything to do with him being a fucking boss.

 

[Ipsen]

My issue, I suppose, is that I don't think we should be writing for minorities, I think we should just be writing them. Pandering and condescending are not the answer here. We need real characters, grounded and informed by their own racial identity, not by the supposed identity of those we want to buy their comics.

My concern about the gods is that they are now members not only of a godly pantheon, but of a historical canon. I actually wrote a massive essay about this for my personal web site. I would link to it, but I have been yelled about posting links on this forum before, so you can just click my name to go to the site and look for it.

As for the aliens thing... I often try not to think about that. It brings up all kinds of biological questions I don't think I have the answers to involving romances like those with Louis Lane and Jane Foster.

For the sake of sticking with Thor, I'm finding you kind of off. Real characters are engaging, and pandering and condescending actions are hardly called for these days, in this line of work and many others. But leave racial identification and the specifics for folks who have a good chunk of the screen time (I haven't seen Thor, but I'm imagining Heimdall not having too major a role here). Minor characters don't need to have their racial identities fleshed out for their roles, especially not for a fantasy-based film. If racial tensions are cutting in on your entertainment from a comic book adaptation, that's your issue. Not the production's.

And as far as the members belonging to a historical canon (which, I wouldn't have a problem if they changed to a white Heimdall in the next), it happens. Especially because people are making a fuss out of it, it will be remembered, for better or worse.

 

[AntiChrist]

Enjoy your Pandora's box, Bob. If you insist that motion pictures must revolt against the systematic cultural exploitation of non-caucasians then what about the rest of society? Must all cultural practices not strive to topple the cultural hegemony of Western civilization then? And what about the other exploitations - the systematic exploitation of the working class, women, third world countries and so forth? Are films not dutied to correct these as well? Good luck with your cultural revolution - don't bite off more than you can chew, I'd say.

 

[Mailman]

What would the discussion have been if MovieBob decided to go with the Samurai Pizza Cats? Would it help if I sent a carefully worded email to The Escapist stating they should let MovieBob do the Pizza Cats episode?

 

[zehydra]

I don't really think that living in a shitty world gives us any reason not to pursue an idealized one.

 

[PhiMed]

Wait... Goku was black?

 

[vxicepickxv]

The problem is that there people make it into a problem.
As soon as you look at the movie and say hey why did they cast a black guy for that role, you are the problem.

They cast him because he was a badass in that role. I'm going to go with that as my answer.

I'm kind of glad they didn't bother talking about Zephyr and Thor as a part time couple, because that would involve dragging in Halle Berry. That would be bad because Halle Berry is a terrible actress.

 

[Nerf Ninja]

White privelage is a joke, i don't see black people being held back or opressed, i see affirmative action, black-only scholarship programs, black history month, every conceivable kind of helping hand to get underprivelaged poor black children decent educations, but very little of the same for anyone else.

Equality does not mean giving one group more than another, the defenition of equality means equal rights for everyone, which is just not happening.

Equality is an illusion and that was never the point. How can there be equality when the two parts in question (blacks & whites) have two different starting-points? These "underprivileged poor black children" are the victims of generations of oppression and cultural marginalization, while us white folks are the perpetrators. White privilege is not a joke, it's that ugly thing inside you that makes you sneer when you see people more deserving then yourself get concessions you feel entitled to.

The concept is called equality through inequality. The playing fields much be levelled before the human race as a whole can move past these concepts as true equals. You are in the way.

You really hate your own "race" don't you?

Noone is more deserving than anyone else and yet you seem to think that just because of someone's genetic heritage they are more entitled to anything? racist much? it's not really a case of white vs black anymore, it's all about money. Those who have it and those who don't.

 

[Sikratua]

It's not about the sins of the father, its about the cultural nonequivalence which is the direct result of generations of racism. That makes it morally responsible to recast a white character as black, yet not the other way around. If this makes you feel somehow slighted, that is the hard-wired white privilege which has been ingrained in your subconscious through years of the cultural doctrine of white superiority. Word of the wise: Get over it, because the world is getting over you.

While I'm all for casting a character solely on the qualities of the character, without regard to race, (Michael Clarke Duncan as the Kingpin was pretty much the only good thing about the DareDevil movie.) there is something to be said about remaining true to your source material. The reason Heimdal was white in Thor comics is because the writers were being true to that source material. Heimdal was white in Norse mythology. The reason for this had nothing to do with racism on the part of the Norse. I seriously doubt that any of those people had ever actually seen anyone darker than themselves when the myths were first told.

That said, Bob, I honestly thought you were more of a comic fan than this. Using the "White Guilt" card as the reason that Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury really finda exposes your lack of knowledge on the subject. Samuel L. Jackson was cast as Nick Fury in the current crop of Marvel movies because the current crop of Marvel movies aren't set in the main universe. They're set in the Ultimates universe. And, in the Ultimates universe, Nick Fury is black, and drawn specifically to resemble Samuel L. Jackson.

But, then there's the topic of slavery. Bob, I'm going to let you in on a couple secrets that people tend to leave out of the history books. First, slavery has been in almost every culture since the dawn of human history. America wasn't the first, and America wasn't the worst. We also weren't the first to subjegate the people of another land. Does that make slavery a good thing? Of course not. Second, the vast majority of American slaves were sold into slavery by..... (wait for it)....... other Africans. That's right, Bob. For all of your "white people suck" self-loathing that you displayed in this video, you seem to forget the fact that, without the original supplier, there is no market. Don't believe me? Buy something off of the Playstation Network. Go ahead. I'll wait.

You're back? What did you get? I know. I know. This is a bit of an apples to oranges arguement, since, once the slaves were in America, the offspring could be used as product. But, without the African slave traders, those people were never in America as slaves, to begin with.

But, then again, I could just sum all of my ranting up with one thing that spits in the face of one of the lessons I was taught, as a child. Bob, you just openly declared that two wrongs do make a right. And, this isn't the first time you've done this.