The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[Vault boy Eddie]

I haven't seen the movie yet, and them changing him to a black character doesn't bother me, but looking at the Wikipedia entry and seeing this line made me chuckle.

"Heimdallr is attested as possessing foreknowledge, keen eyesight and hearing, is described as "the whitest of the gods""

If anyone knows how to make letters Italic and underline them, let me know how to do it, that would be much appreciated.

 

[lowkey_jotunn]

Honestly, I don't have an issue swapping race one way or another if it makes sense. If it fits the story and doesn't feel like someone being shoehorned in to meet some equality quotient. And that's what I feel is going on here, in Thor.

Is Idris Elba a good actor? Yes. And everything I've heard said he did a great job (I'll see for myself soon enough) And that's splendid. I'm glad he did such a great job and I look forward to seeing him in other movies, but this was not the right role for him.

To use another example from your video: Nick Fury. I don't so much mind that they turned him black. My only complaint is that they turned him into SHAFT. Nick Fury used to be a grizzled, no-nonsense hardass. Now he's a "smooth mother-shut-your-mouth." Perhaps that's just a limitation of Samuel L Jackson as an actor, or maybe it's a conscious decision on the studio's part. Either way, it's the abrupt change in character that makes me go () ... not the fact that he's black.

One more example, that you didn't touch on... from the terrible movie Daredevil. The Kingpin, classically a white character was played by Michael Clark Duncan. And you know what? I dug it. MCD is a great actor, did the part justice, and I didn't see a difference between the portrayal of the character between the comics, old cartoon series and the movie.


Back to the topic at hand: double standards. Maybe it's just me, but I can't understand why it's deemed "OK" if there's no real reason behind it. We shouldn't just shrug it off as "well, it could be worse" and leave it be. If I may draw a parallel: women in the workplace make less money than men in the same jobs. Should we leave this alone? I mean, there was a time when women couldn't vote! So we should just let the current inequalities slide, right? (/sarcasm)

 

[Futurenerd]

The first big thing I took away from this episode was that there was a live action DBZ movie. I may need to go scrub my brain so I don't think about that too hard...

 

[Jonathan Bradford]

Great video for the length available, Elba did an amazing job in the film.

I don't think you read to far into the issue like some, you just stated what you know/feel and it made the video all the better because of it.

 

[cynicalsaint1]

Meanwhile there isn't anything in particular that demands Heimdall be white other than the fact that the culture that developed the mythology that the character is loosely based on was very white.

Surely that itself is reason enough.

Given that the movie essentially defines the Asgardians as space aliens from another dimension I hardly see how whether or not the color of their skin matches that of the Norse is particularly relevant.

 

[Melion]

Ideal = Ponies.

I agree.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

As a Swede the whole THOR thing is mostly a joke to us anyways.
Thor in Norse myth is QUITE different from the THOR in the US. So, If they want to cast a great dark-skinned actor I don't give a fuck, since Norse mythology really seems to mostly be an inspiration.
(http://satwcomic.com/nordic-halloween)

But, I don't think that you can inherit guilt. Never mind that European colonialism and technology have risen the standard of for the former colonies. (See india)
So, I really feel that race isn't an issue anymore. But, I'm speaking for northern Europe. Our hands are (Mostly) clean in this issue.

Do you REALLY want to claim innocence as Europe? Sweden may be, but the Dutch, French, Spaniards and to some extent the British really can't claim to be the great benefactors of their old colonies. The Congo was one of the worst examples of how to run a colony EVER, and the French in Algeria didn't really help. Spain is partially responsible for some of the problems in South American nations, setting up a system where only the rich had any power, and slaughtering the natives before essentially enslaving them. The aforementioned and Germany have no right to claim a lack of racism, look at the massive problems they have with immigration and "preservation of culture."

I want to claim innocence as having abso-fucking-lutely diddly-squat to do with any of that in any stretch of the imagination.

SINS OF THE FUCKING FATHERS

But the current immigration problems are very much the issue of those alive today. I brought up the past because you claimed that Europe helped all it's foreign colonies.

1) Has anyone heard about the Moors? They took HUGE amounts of white slaves from all across Europe.

2) DOWN WITH ITALY!!! I WANT MY REPARATIONS FOR ROMAN SLAVERY!!!

3) As far as immigration issues go... America and Europe are in two completely different situations. Europe has countries with long standing cultures where the people have been there for thousands of years. No one has a right to their country just because they're wealthy. America, on the other hand, is #1 FUCKING HUGE and can accommodate a lot more people, and #2 is founded by immigrants (well, except for the Native Americans). If the French say you have to be French to be in France, then more power to them. But America is founded on the principle of:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

So yeah, two different situations entirely.

4) Would Africa be better off if we stayed out of it? Do you think that American black people are better off now even though they started off as slaves? I don't think Africa would have had the industrial revolution on its own, it just wasn't heading that way. I'm not saying that justifies slavery, but it does seem to suggest that slavery did have some good consequences as well. I think if you asked most black people today if they could go back in a time machine and stop slavery, but if they did they would come back in an Africa untouched by European influence most of them would resoundingly respond: "FUCK THAT SHIT, I LIKE RUNNING WATER!"

5) I'm going to go out on a limb here and people might call me racist, but I'm going to say that race is no longer the primary issue. Sure, it might keep some people from getting the jobs that they deserve, but I think the thing that overwhelmingly keeps black people down in America is... POVERTY. Duh. Middle class black people don't have much to worry about. Hopefully they live in an area like San Francisco or New York where they won't be discriminated against.

Poverty begets poverty, and black people started off poor, so now they have to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. I don't think the answer is to be focusing all of our attention on getting more black actors roles, or telling white people how they're privileged. That simply isn't going to accomplish much of anything. The fact of the matter is that we need to increase taxes and improve the education system in poor communities so that people can escape poverty.

 

[VendettaNola]

Samurai Pizza Cats! Bob, please feel FREE to do a whole episode on that. That show ruled.

 

[JaceArveduin]

Well, for the person who thinks a "minority" just cant get ahead, those who try can, heres an excerpt from the Gates Millennium Scholarship

"Who?s Eligible?Students are eligible to be considered for a GMS scholarship if they:
Are African American, American Indian/Alaska Native*, Asian Pacific Islander American** or Hispanic American"

What happens when you win this award? They pay for your college up to a PHD level, one of our councilors did abit of math, and it can easily be $150K. I could have had just as many qualifications as she did, but I'm white as chalk, so I'm shit out of luck.

But yeah, double standards will not make racism go away, due to people being resentful of the double standards. I got to thinking, and now a days in America, it fucking sucks to be a white male. Why? Easy, any minority gets in line before you, otherwise someones being racist. All women get in front of you, otherwise it's sexism. But I digress.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

Meanwhile there isn't anything in particular that demands Heimdall be white other than the fact that the culture that developed the mythology that the character is loosely based on was very white.

Surely that itself is reason enough.

Given that the movie essentially defines the Asgardians as space aliens from another dimension I hardly see how whether or not the color of their skin matches that of the Norse is particularly relevant.

It isn't Norse mythology. It's something that is loosely inspired by Norse mythology.

Hell, Odin asks Thor to swear to "uphold the peace"...

WHAT... THE... FUCK?!?!?!

THAT GOES AGAINST THE MOST BASIC PRINCIPLES OF NORSE MYTHOLOGY. IT'S LIKE TAKING THE NEW DUKE NUKEM GAME AND CALLING DUKE NUKEM JESUS. THINK ABOUT WHAT JESUS IS SUPPOSED TO PREACH AND LET THAT SINK IN.

 

[Vampire cat]

In Norway we also had slaves in the distant past, but the Vikings mostly snatched them from Ireland and such, so they were white too. In other words not a race thing, but a "I'm lazy, do my work for free" thing. That's likely why most Norwegians don't quite understand the big deal, and especially how USA tend to get really touchy and politically shaky on the subject of race.

Racism unfortunately does exist in Norway, but I don't think anyone should get any special treatment. If a person of another color and me were running for the same job, I'd expect us to be judged equally on the basis of our skills and so on, and not according to gender and race. In daily life I don't even consider the possibility that people don't treat others equally by default, and so it always confuses me that someone can have these opinions about others based on purely coincidental things that say nothing about the individuals personality and skills. We're all aiming for an equal society, but it can't be equal if we're constantly trying to compensate for past mistakes. Sure, stuff that happened back then was fucked up, but instead of trying to compensate for that we should adjust so it becomes fair, and then move on. It annoys me that just giving everyone the exact same freedoms and right wouldn't work due to opinions ingrained in society...

That said, I don't care which race any individual character in a movie is. I do ask for historical accuracy (a movie with Hitler in it should have him played by a white man, for example...), but beyond that I'm completely indifferent. Oh, and to immigrants all over the world: We need you here in Norway, our population is actually declining and we have plenty of room and jobs available if your not too picky. Don't listen to the maniacs trying to force you out, they are a minority... All we ask is that our way of living may remain the same and that you follow the laws of the land...

 

[Xanadu84]

Hehe...Ponies...Awesome...

Although there was the episode where MLP did address racism with the Zebra Zecora, ending in a remarkably poignant lesson for kids about racism and...umm...

Anyways...

I need to thank you Moviebob. It seems sometimes like you are the only other person on the internet sick of the anti-PC police, and thinks that maybe, Political Correctness is really just showing a little bit of baseline respect to fellow human beings, and that most people define "Being PC" as doing anything that they don't like in a way that lets you feel morally superior. I'm sick of it, and despite being in a horribly small minority, my position somehow manages to be construed as the position of the oppressive majority. Thank you for being a voice of reason.

Also, a lot of people are talking about how it is okay for a black person to steal a white role, but not vice-versa. I need to point out that this is simply not accurate, because these roles do not BELONG to any individual. Unless Heimdal comes down the rainbow bridge and demands to play himself in the Thor movie, the role is up for pretty much anyone the maker wants to throw the role too. Giving the role to a black guy does say something about race: The disparity between the myths and the movie racially is just too big to ignore. So the makers are specifically saying that putting a black person in that position is an acceptable, interesting difference. But this fits the zeitgeist of comics remarkably well, because comics are well established as mediums that take characters and setting, and add little kinks and tweaks to explore what changes. What is such and such died? What if this character was a woman? What if this character were gay? What if suchandsuch never happened? Hell, it seems like half the story lines of comics are ludicrously elaborate and implausible plot devices used to establish a compelling, "What if" scenario. Black Heimdal? Perfectly reasonable within the realm of comics and comic movies. Very few scenarios are so unacceptable that it can't be explored. The only time there is a problem is of that what if scenario is boring. Which is why casting minority roles as white actors is not acceptable: It's boring. It's another white actor in another white-centric role. White washing adds nothing interesting or positive to the equation unless you are racist. Sure, it isn't exactly racist in itself, but it throws away a perfectly good opportunity to explore something different.

 

[Sean951]

As a Swede the whole THOR thing is mostly a joke to us anyways.
Thor in Norse myth is QUITE different from the THOR in the US. So, If they want to cast a great dark-skinned actor I don't give a fuck, since Norse mythology really seems to mostly be an inspiration.
(http://satwcomic.com/nordic-halloween)

But, I don't think that you can inherit guilt. Never mind that European colonialism and technology have risen the standard of for the former colonies. (See india)
So, I really feel that race isn't an issue anymore. But, I'm speaking for northern Europe. Our hands are (Mostly) clean in this issue.

Do you REALLY want to claim innocence as Europe? Sweden may be, but the Dutch, French, Spaniards and to some extent the British really can't claim to be the great benefactors of their old colonies. The Congo was one of the worst examples of how to run a colony EVER, and the French in Algeria didn't really help. Spain is partially responsible for some of the problems in South American nations, setting up a system where only the rich had any power, and slaughtering the natives before essentially enslaving them. The aforementioned and Germany have no right to claim a lack of racism, look at the massive problems they have with immigration and "preservation of culture."

I want to claim innocence as having abso-fucking-lutely diddly-squat to do with any of that in any stretch of the imagination.

SINS OF THE FUCKING FATHERS

But the current immigration problems are very much the issue of those alive today. I brought up the past because you claimed that Europe helped all it's foreign colonies.

1) Has anyone heard about the Moors? They took HUGE amounts of white slaves from all across Europe.

2) DOWN WITH ITALY!!! I WANT MY REPARATIONS FOR ROMAN SLAVERY!!!

3) As far as immigration issues go... America and Europe are in two completely different situations. Europe has countries with long standing cultures where the people have been there for thousands of years. No one has a right to their country just because they're wealthy. America, on the other hand, is #1 FUCKING HUGE and can accommodate a lot more people, and #2 is founded by immigrants (well, except for the Native Americans). If the French say you have to be French to be in France, then more power to them. But America is founded on the principle of:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

So yeah, two different situations entirely.

4) Would Africa be better off if we stayed out of it? Do you think that American black people are better off now even though they started off as slaves? I don't think Africa would have had the industrial revolution on its own, it just wasn't heading that way. I'm not saying that justifies slavery, but it does seem to suggest that slavery did have some good consequences as well. I think if you asked most black people today if they could go back in a time machine and stop slavery, but if they did they would come back in an Africa untouched by European influence most of them would resoundingly respond: "FUCK THAT SHIT, I LIKE RUNNING WATER!"

5) I'm going to go out on a limb here and people might call me racist, but I'm going to say that race is no longer the primary issue. Sure, it might keep some people from getting the jobs that they deserve, but I think the thing that overwhelmingly keeps black people down in America is... POVERTY. Duh. Middle class black people don't have much to worry about. Hopefully they live in an area like San Francisco or New York where they won't be discriminated against.

Poverty begets poverty, and black people started off poor, so now they have to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. I don't think the answer is to be focusing all of our attention on getting more black actors roles, or telling white people how they're privileged. That simply isn't going to accomplish much of anything. The fact of the matter is that we need to increase taxes and improve the education system in poor communities so that people can escape poverty.

1) Ya, slavery was everywhere.

2) See 1.

3) I really don't see how that matters in the slightest. So what if America is founded as a nation of immigrants and Europe wasn't. Institutionalized racism is still racism and I reserve the right to call it that.

4)Yes, yes it would. Africa produced some amazing empires on it's own, such as the Great Zimbabwe, Ethiopia (which was never colonized), Mali, the Gold Coast, The Fatimid Caliphate, the Almoravid and Almohad caliphates, Egypt, Carthage, etc. Yes, I pulled some of those from ancient times, but the point is they were entirely capable of forming their own kingdoms and, had they not been largely subjugated from 1600s-1900s, they could have pulled of their own form. If nothing else, it would have been done through contact, as even the people of Southern Africa traded with China.

5) Well... I tend to agree on this, Racism still exists and will keep certain people from getting jobs or houses or what have you, but the main thing keeping the poor people poor is the "culture" that you find in the more poverty stricken areas. The "gangster" lifestyle has it's appeal and many of the role models of people who escaped such situations are pro athletes. This isn't to say that poor people can't get out of the ghettos, but it takes a significant amount of work.

 

[SOCIALCONSTRUCT]

 

[Epic Fail 1977]

As a non-American seeing this stuff from the outside, I find it confusing. America apparently had no problem with various fictional elite US soldiers (and one Terminator from the future) being played by a guy with a heavy Austrian accent. You're Americans! Your movies and TV shows regularly feature families whose accents indicate that the parents and children all come from different states (and sometimes even different countries). Why is it that you don't mind having accents from all over the place but skin colour is somehow a big deal? If the character playing this black dude was supposed to be a Norsk god or something, and if the part had given to a white American, would any of you then be complaining that the role should have been given to a Scandanavian?

 

[i64ever]

Is it ok that I, a British person, find the casting of a nordic god as black a bit daft because I am without all that slave owning history guilt? (Although I am sure Idris is awesome in Thor as he is a great actor. I saw his BBC series Luther and he kicked ass, you should all go watch it now)

Yes, because clearly the British Empire never did anything to hurt those living in Africa or India. Colonialism was almost as bad. just ask Ghandi.

 

[Jacob Cardwell]

One race change made in casting that was a huge positive was the casting of Michael Clark Duncan as the Kingpin in the 2003 Daredevil film, and subsequent guest appearance in the 2004 animated Spiderman Series. He was great for the role, better than any pro wrestler they could've found (that's where they were looking)

 

[Sylocat]

Hey, everyone who is saying, "But... but sins of the father and all that!," please watch the video to the end and see if the point you think you're so righteous for making has already been addressed in the video itself.

Seriously, it boggles the mind how people can keep spouting off the same old tired, fallacious arguments no matter how many times they are refuted. It's worse than AGW "skepticism."