The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[Nautical Honors Society]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

It doesn't matter that they're in a comic, they're still Norse gods.

Marvel sure can cast who ever it likes. Casting a black person as an ancient European god isn't even the strangest thing they've done to them. That doesn't stop them from being Norse gods though.

Like I said in my previous post. The casting isn't going to sway me either way on the film. I'm just pointing out why it's bugging some people.

But they aren't Norse gods. They are comic book character's based on Norse mythology.

Also Hemidall was black in an issue of Thor: The Mighty Avenger...

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Bob is for Pony?

And only one way to fix all racism, forever:

Spoiler: You ready for this?

Black Batman

Oh yeah.

 

[Wieke]

While I'm well aware that we don't live in a perfect world, shouldn't we seek to achieve it? Also allowing racism against one race for the sake of fairness (or eye for an eye) is quite hypocritical.

That said swapping the race of non-Caucasian characters to Caucasian is worse that the opposite because it homogenizes our culture. An increase in diversity would be nice, after all change is spice of life. (But I'm not sure it should be increased at the cost of our suspension of disbelief.)

 

[JDKJ]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

It doesn't matter that they're in a comic, they're still Norse gods.

Marvel sure can cast who ever it likes. Casting a black person as an ancient European god isn't even the strangest thing they've done to them. That doesn't stop them from being Norse gods though.

Like I said in my previous post. The casting isn't going to sway me either way on the film. I'm just pointing out why it's bugging some people.

But they aren't Norse gods. They are comic book character's based on Norse mythology.

Also Hemidall was black in an issue of Thor: The Mighty Avenger...

I often wondered how Marvel's Tarzan survived the African sun without being lathered from head to toe in SPF 110. Now I know: it's bullshit!! "Lord of the Jungle" my ass.

 

[Sean951]

The slave card takes your otherwise fantastic argument and weighs it down considerably. A double standard of the past is irrelevant. The continued impacts of slavery (though considerably more notable down in the States) are relevant but slavery itself is not. No one here has ever owned a slave, nor has their father or their grandfather; they may have racist parents or grandparents but never slave owning so there is no guilt to be had. The slave card makes your argument sound more petty and puerile, which is too

Europe got brought up because someone mentioned how Europe has "moved passed" racism and colonialism helped the former colonies. Yes, America did terrible things to the Native Americans, but I wouldn't call it genocide so much as mass corruption. The Supreme Curt ruled the Cherokee Nation an independent country, but that was ignored. Factor in ignorance of the others culture on both sides, and you get a decades long conflict that ended with the Reservations where local officials would take much of what was intended to be distributed and sell it to make money. I'm not saying the government was blameless, but it was far less a genocide than some people make it out to be.

Also, Europe may have banned slaves in Europe, but they sure as hell still had them in the colonies. Hell, the Dutch Congo was a hell hole until the early 1900s if I remember correctly.

Well I'd have to agree with you Sean if it weren't for the fact that the Native American's (a nomadic culture with little to no farming expertise and a religious belief that ran in the face of the idea of farming) were put on reservations, punished if they left, had their main food source and cultural base (the Bison) hunted to near extinction. It goes on and on. But pointing the finger at people for who committed the worse atrocity is pointless because there are pros and cons for every thing and who knows what the world would be like now if it weren't for those horrific acts.

Not all tribes were nomadic, that was limited to the plains Indians. The coasts and parts of the Southwest had a very sedentary lifestyle that included farming and trade with the Meso-Americans and the new Europeans. I agree the final treatment was terrible, and it depresses me to say this, but had we not put them onto the reservations, then the settlers would have sparked an all out war, which happened anyways over the Black Hills. I think the Simpson's made a good tribute to our treatment when they have a Thanksgiving Day parade and the Native Americans built a float made entirely of broken treaties.

 

[NickCooley]

TALENT trumps ACCURACY. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. And from what we've seen Idris sweats the stuff. Keep your realism cry babies, I'll be here enjoying things.

Besides the dudes a GOD. I would have thought changing skin colour would be child's play to a god, ever think this universes Heimdall just got bored of being white? Makes more sense than Valkyries, Fimbulwinter and Yggdrasil at any rate.

 

[Nautical Honors Society]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

It doesn't matter that they're in a comic, they're still Norse gods.

Marvel sure can cast who ever it likes. Casting a black person as an ancient European god isn't even the strangest thing they've done to them. That doesn't stop them from being Norse gods though.

Like I said in my previous post. The casting isn't going to sway me either way on the film. I'm just pointing out why it's bugging some people.

But they aren't Norse gods. They are comic book character's based on Norse mythology.

Also Hemidall was black in an issue of Thor: The Mighty Avenger...

I often wondered how Marvel's Tarzan survived the African sun without being lathered from head to toe in SPF 110. Now I know: it's bullshit!! "Lord of the Jungle" my ass.

He survived because it was a comic book. Are you trying to be clever? If so it isn't translating well.

 

[Agayek]

Skin Deep

Sometimes embracing a double standard is the right thing to do.

Watch Video

I don't know about the rest of the thread, and don't particularly care, but I do have two things to say about this video:

1) For the most part you are correct, double standards are a fact of life and we're almost certainly never going to get away from them. That said, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. The way I see it, the people who were victimized and actually put under aforementioned heinous double standard(s) are long dead and trying to make "reparations" of any sort (because that's what accepting new double standards as you suggest is) to those who never had to deal with it is more than a bit ridiculous. Feel free to disagree, because that brings me to #2.

2) Would it be at all possible to see one of these gently-considered, long winded academic deconstructions? I'm honestly rather curious what kind of points and arguments you'd make in such a thing, as I tend to agree with the things you say on BP but I didn't on this go round.

Edit: Just to make it clear before someone yells at me, I don't give a shit about the cross-race casting or whatever else issues come up with. I really don't give a flying fuck if they painted him bright blue and said he was one of the Na'vi. The only thing that really bugs me about it is the finding of double standards to be acceptable. It's really not, even if it is a practical impossibility. We should always strive for the ideal, even if we can't reach it.

 

[JDKJ]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

It doesn't matter that they're in a comic, they're still Norse gods.

Marvel sure can cast who ever it likes. Casting a black person as an ancient European god isn't even the strangest thing they've done to them. That doesn't stop them from being Norse gods though.

Like I said in my previous post. The casting isn't going to sway me either way on the film. I'm just pointing out why it's bugging some people.

But they aren't Norse gods. They are comic book character's based on Norse mythology.

Also Hemidall was black in an issue of Thor: The Mighty Avenger...

They have referred to themselves as gods on more than one occasion. They are the Norse gods of the Marvel universe. The fact that they're in a comic doesn't really mean anything. It certainly doesn't mean they aren't Norse gods.

Also, how is the second part relevant? Marvel butcher every piece of outside inspiration they can get their hands on. That's what they do. I'm not expecting an accurate representation of source material when I watch or read something marvel... I think I must have pointed this about about 3-4 times by now. I'm pretty much just playing devils advocate here. I'm pointing out what is annoying OTHER people.

(I have also never been able to find the issue where Hemidall was black.)

Thor: The Mighty Avenger #6.

 

[roostuf]

a very interesting episode, i watched it but i wasn't affected by it.

 

[Nautical Honors Society]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

It doesn't matter that they're in a comic, they're still Norse gods.

Marvel sure can cast who ever it likes. Casting a black person as an ancient European god isn't even the strangest thing they've done to them. That doesn't stop them from being Norse gods though.

Like I said in my previous post. The casting isn't going to sway me either way on the film. I'm just pointing out why it's bugging some people.

But they aren't Norse gods. They are comic book character's based on Norse mythology.

Also Hemidall was black in an issue of Thor: The Mighty Avenger...

They have referred to themselves as gods on more than one occasion. They are the Norse gods of the Marvel universe. The fact that they're in a comic doesn't really mean anything. It certainly doesn't mean they aren't Norse gods.

Also, how is the second part relevant? Marvel butcher every piece of outside inspiration they can get their hands on. That's what they do. I'm not expecting an accurate representation of source material when I watch or read something marvel... I think I must have pointed this about about 3-4 times by now. I'm pretty much just playing devils advocate here. I'm pointing out what is annoying OTHER people.

(I have also never been able to find the issue where Hemidall was black.)

It is Thor: The Mighty Avenger #6

Spoiler:

and because they are the Norse gods of the Marvel Universe means that Marvel can do whatever they want to them and not worry about historical accuracy.

Ok I understand you are playing devils advocate, I am just saying why people shouldn't be annoyed that all...we can end this now haha

 

[Professor James]

Well the Hollywood thing is quite worse for asian than for black people. Just point me 3 movies where asian are not supposed to be a gang, a group of martial artists or both?
You are right, however since Thor is not a retelling of nordic culture well... Let it slide. Because if it were about it, than it would be racist. White people did colonialism. BUT not all white the same. You know, my non american forum readers, europeans. Did you get offended if someone mistake a portuguese for a spanish, french for a german, italian from a greek. Point in case.

I can think of one movie called kickin it old skool.

 

[JDKJ]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

It doesn't matter that they're in a comic, they're still Norse gods.

Marvel sure can cast who ever it likes. Casting a black person as an ancient European god isn't even the strangest thing they've done to them. That doesn't stop them from being Norse gods though.

Like I said in my previous post. The casting isn't going to sway me either way on the film. I'm just pointing out why it's bugging some people.

But they aren't Norse gods. They are comic book character's based on Norse mythology.

Also Hemidall was black in an issue of Thor: The Mighty Avenger...

I often wondered how Marvel's Tarzan survived the African sun without being lathered from head to toe in SPF 110. Now I know: it's bullshit!! "Lord of the Jungle" my ass.

He survived because it was a comic book. Are you trying to be clever? If so it isn't translating well.

And comic book Suns don't cause blistering sunburn? Just asking. I'm no Stan Lee.

 

[Jim-a-Lim]

Can I just say (firstly great video) that I never understood why we are supposed to be calling black people black and not coloured. I get all the other terms being taboo and I agree: the terminology can suck a donkey dong. Racism is utterly ridiculous, but if I were black I would prefer being called coloured, just sounds happier/nicer? No? just me? I live with 3 black guys by the way so don't label me as racist or UN-pc because I am not. I just think the terminology is weird that way .

 

[Mr.Squishy]

Dear Bob.
I can't be arsed to repeat what I've already said on this issue in full, but basically, it would be really fucking nice if people would stop shitting all over the collective scandinavian cultural heritage. What really makes it come off as trolling is that Heimdall is specifically known as "The WHITE god", in a world where having black hair would land you the title 'the black'. Also, pulling the slavery card is bull****, not only because Scandinavia has stayed out of that mess, but also because I'm not a believer in the logic that "What happened 200-300 years ago shall haunt the ancestors foreveeer". It's called white guilt, and I'm mighty sick of it. Because, really, do I look in the mirror every morning and say "Ah, today I'm going to oppress some black people!"? No? Have I ever? No. And neither did my father, nor my father before him, nor his father before him, etc. etc.
Also, double standards are double standards no way how you twist and turn it, and are invariably unfair and pretty much always ridiculous.
*sigh*
[sub]Concentrate on the ponies...[/sub]

 

[SOCIALCONSTRUCT]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt?

Because I didn't do anything. The fact that I benefited is not my fault and I cannot make the benefits go away.

You're benefiting at the expense of others.

You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times).

No, but you can (a) recognize the fact that you have benefited and (b) don't claim that you don't owe that benefit to the burden of others.

JDKJ you are surely a troll. I bet you are sat there right now with your gleaming troll face smile, nice and fat from all the feeding that every one has given you this evening?

(a) He did recognise that he benefited - "The fact that I benefited"

(b) He actually went so far in the other direction to what you claim he is claiming... right that is hard to understand. To clarify, you seem to think that he doesn't think he owes any one for the "benefit" when in fact he says that every one owes the "benefits" to every one. He transcends the whole Black & White relationship extending the "racism and slavery is bad" to a much wider spectrum of social status and race. - "You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times)"

I do not think I owe anyone for slavery (since I'm not a slaveowner and I never fought to keep slavery legal etc.). However if we're going to start doing this why stop at African slaves? Why not go back to the slaves of ancient times?

It's not that simple. If you're white and American, the long and, arguably, still continuing history of repression and oppression of racial minorities by the white majority better positions you to compete for scare resources and opportunities (e.g., schools, jobs, etc.) than the minorities who have historically been kept from the field of competition.

1. Yes but that is different from slavery, yet slavery is still invoked as a debt that all white people share.

2. Also in the past, before my time. That is last millennium's business. Not my responsibility.

No need to repeat yourself. I long ago understood your position on the matter and had stopped responding to you.

#1 is not repetition and a continuation from discussion from previous posts. You said I benefited from slavery, but what describe above is distinct from slavery.

 

[Rikortez]

Well, i do NOT agree, but respect your opinion Bob.

 

[HuCast]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

It doesn't matter that they're in a comic, they're still Norse gods.

Marvel sure can cast who ever it likes. Casting a black person as an ancient European god isn't even the strangest thing they've done to them. That doesn't stop them from being Norse gods though.

Like I said in my previous post. The casting isn't going to sway me either way on the film. I'm just pointing out why it's bugging some people.

But they aren't Norse gods. They are comic book character's based on Norse mythology.

Also Hemidall was black in an issue of Thor: The Mighty Avenger...

So Captain America could be a french guy because he is just a fictional character? just asking