The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[gamer_parent]

native americans are universally spiritual "living off the land" types who spout faux new age ideology

Sometimes, though, stereotypes have their origins in reality. Ever been to Sedona, AZ?

No, but I guess my own perception of reality is also a little skewed. The last native american I met (and to my recollection, the only one I've ever met that's full native american) was back when I attended NYU Stern (the business school). That guy has more in common with guys in the movie Wall Street than he does with John Redcorn from King of the Hill.

 

[vailreth]

First i would like to say i agree with both the sides that we need to accept that there are double standards in place and that they shouldn't be there and that we should work to remove them. As well i believe most of those posting seemed to have missed the whole of the point. This point being that casting minority characters with white actors is a greater detriment to those minorities and culture in general than the reverse. as an example of why Bob used slavery. He may mean Just Slavery or it could be all of the racism that minorities face and have faced since the beginning with the image of a slave ship being the Most poignant image there fore.

With this said JDKJ I do not understand your sense of entitlement. Yes the Slavery Era was a terrible part of our history. Yes, as well discrimination has continued since then but has been slowly being over come. Discrimination still exists today but its extreme examples are no longer tolerated and are often punishable. Things are not perfect but then they likely never will be so a balance is what is needed. The idea that Modern White Americans owe Modern Black Americans any thing more than the mutual respect and consideration any one person owes another is in my "Opinion" a Hand out philosophy. Worse still It is a form of discrimination in its self as well as coming across as pandering for pity. It speaks of trying to use the system that is in place to help the underprivileged of minority groups and a lack of both dignity and agency in the world.

There are other races in american history that were used and abused by the white men in power at the time. Native Americans such as the Cherokee and even other white communities like the Irish. it may be only me but I do not see them playing Victim Poker.

I have had no intention to offend or flame. this is simply how all matters here seem to be to me.

 

[lastjustice]

Black Superman would be awesome.

They already had one, it was called Hancock. But see that's a change done right. You don't hollow out an existing character just make room for diversity. You create something new altogether which actually adds continuity of things not take it away.

Bob....two words for you....WHITE GUILT...Get over it. May be you grew up in a heavily white neighborhood where all minorities got picked and never got a break. That's not all of America. I'm not fully white (Native American, small %) which got beat up and picked on plenty for being white since I was the minority where I grew up.(and I dont think world sucks for it. I think I'm stronger for all crap I've taken.) I've gotten denied jobs and other benefits because of being white. This being white is an easy button for life is utter BS.

Entitlement programs in Illinois will deny you if you're white alot of times. A guy my brother whos a cop works with a guy with a sister who had a brain tumor and almost died. She can't work anymore and the state denied her disability. Her brother asked all people in hood what they got checks for. Some of the more amusing answers were...I'm stupid...I have a cough. Tons of them get checks. She decided file again with the exact same info except checked the box she was black....She was accepted.

My family never owned slaves. My family actually was oppressed somewhere along the way, but you know WHO CARES. It's a new unit of time, people make their own path. Tons of awful things have happened through out the entire history of humanity(I don't see America demanding some sort of payment for the twin towers being blown up, or people telling all muslims that they owe the rest of us for it if we wanna go with current events.), and I don't believe Americans now have somehow make up for crimes they didn't commit themselves. They didn't get to pick their ethic background to best of our knowledge (imagine if life were like DND character creation heh.) So why are their getting a penalty for it? You know thought people should pay for crimes of their forefathers Bob?...Hitler.

 

[TheRealCJ]

So according to Bob, embracing double standards is the only real way to treat our popular culture's derth of interesting or complex minority characters. So changing a Norse god's race was preferable to creating a new character who is black. Thor had an entire Earth-based realm that was set in modern day America, and yet it was less culturally diverse than Asgard.
This strikes me as a kind of racism in and of itself. It is as though you do not trust minorities or those who write them to create a new and unique character on their own, so you have to "gift" them characters who have already been created. You are allowing them to "prove" their racial equity only through the appropriation of another race's character. It's like if a black African chef wanted to prove his worth in a French kitchen, but rather than let him make his own recipe, gave him a recipe already perfected by a white French cook. This betrays an astounding amount of condescention on the part of anyone who argues this way.
Honestly, some characters can be changed and can benefit from said change in the long run. I think Spider-Man as a young black kid from Queens makes a lot of sense and could be interesting because this is the real world, and that character is set to reflect modern ideas and experience. A Norse god, however, seems to resist this change. Instead, we should be trying to create characters grounded in a racial identity, so "appropriation" instead becomes "creation."

As a comic book fan, AND someone who is incredibly adverse to changes (Often the smallest incongruities between a book/comic and movie is enough to downright piss me off; it's just me), I'd much rather have a inconsequential character have a race lift rather than an entirely new character introduced into a years-long continuity.

 

[Arcane Azmadi]

Am I upset about a black guy being cast in a white role? Nah. Don't care really. ESPECIALLY if he was as awesome as everyone says. I think they are allowed to change a character, especially through if they are modernizing it.

My only issue is that we shouldn't be allowing double standards at all. Sure, slavery was one HELL of a double standard that puts the "movie role" double standard to quintuple shame to the power of infinity, but a lesser injustice is still an injustice, and should not be allowed. Me robbing your store doesn't give you the right to step on my son's foot.

Am I being idealistic? Not exactly, because I'm not saying we shouldn't tolerate double standards, or that the only acceptable situation is when there are no double standards, only that we should constantly be aiming for as few as possible. We should not give free passes to a group who was fucked over centuries ago, simply because as long as they get that free pass, we as a society will never truly move on. It will continue to haunt and hurt both sides and I'd prefer we work towards that no longer happening.

Did you miss Bob's point that the massive double standards being used against non-whites STILL EXIST TODAY? Not nearly as bad as they USED to be obviously, but if you'd honestly claim that a black person in modern-day America is in every way equal to a white person, you're deluded.

Does anyone else think that black superman is a great idea? Cause I sure as hell do

Eh, close enough.

 

[MoD1212]

Great episode Bob agreed with you all the way thru
there are some point that some people are missing from this video

one i highly doubt Bob doesn't have a problem with double standards, if you really think about it double standards have be around as long as the written word (i.e. Adam and Eve) and as much as most of us level headed gamers/comic book fans/etc, wish all the double standards would vainsh, they are not going anywhere for a while ( if you don't thing so and live in the States just turn on Fox News)

When in comes down to it the difference between the Thor casting and DBZ/LastAirBender (apart from being good movies) is that as Bob stated giving "white" people roles that were orginally shown to be Asian, when Hollywood has nothing but white characters roles laying around is a lot worse then letting a great black actor have a role in a movie in which 15+ years would have been ALL WHITE.

We should not give free passes to a group who was fucked over centuries ago, simply because as long as they get that free pass, we as a society will never truly move on. It will continue to haunt and hurt both sides and I'd prefer we work towards that no longer happening.

While there might be some lazy niggas who would love a free pass, I for one feel that we never wanted a "free pass" just a fair shake. Also being that I have more white friends then i done black friends i was never a fan of white guilt, it always seemed weird for an entire generation to carrying the shame that only a few alive rightly deserve. So i don't see the Thor casting as a "win" for black people all i see in an talented actor playing a role his great in

 

[Mostly Harmless]

I have nothing to add to an otherwise 'interesting' debate going on about race and political correctness and just wish to say one thing.

Dear Bob, I want to see a Samurai Pizza Cats episode!!! That is all.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

It's official, Ponies have taken over the escapist.

And I love it

Damnit YOU NINJA!
Yeah,I was just about to bring up that Bob used Ponies as an example for an "ideal world".
But without the "Love" part.

Damn ponies,next thing you know,our resident tosser will like them.
And our newbie and less talented tosser would go next.

O_O

WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT!?!

Thanks! We bronies will make it our life mission to make Yahtzee one of the herd!

I'm sorry,my troll sensor is in the shop. But yeah,if you're serious,good luck with that.

Just kidding.

 

[Tinybear]

Good video, good reasoning, good conclusion.

The problem I can have with this, is not that "white roles are converted to black roles on a whim, because they found a good solution to the casting or dynamic, like Heimdall in Thor", it is that, and especially in Europe, this is a very common phenomena; "white roles get converted to minority roles because it's the right thing to do, or even worse, because a racial/gender quota needs to be met, despite the fact that the white male would be best for the job".

I wish that last " " part was a joke, but it isn't. Norway had one of it's biggest movie flops in its history of moviemaking because the project got funded merely because the department of culture had been giving the movie fund's higher ups a threat of getting them fired if they didn't raise the number of movies directed by female directors.

I am not kidding. That actually happened. This is also very much why I say that every American who whines about Political correctness should get a good slap in the face for being a moron. While american "PC" is that some central square gets a law banishing all forms of ideological displays, we are being forced down our throats that until children of all colours and religions dance under a rainbow, we need to be more tolerant. Stop whining, and learn to separate logical things like "governments should not favor any religion" and illogical things like "it should be illegal to hold symbols of your own religion while working (although, for the Hijab, it's a difficult issue)".

Oh, and thanks to the zealous enforcing of "true equality", fascism is on it's way back into Europe, way to fucking go. So yeah, Americans who whine at "the oppression of political correctness in the US", go back to school and get your brains fixed, because you can't complain about shit. Barack Obama said "one nation under god" after declaring Bin Laden dead. Try that in Europe, and you're politically labeled as far right wing.

So, yet again, if you're American and feel that political correctness is suffocating you, it's more likely you forgot to breathe.

And for the record, who gives a shit about the DBZ movie, that movie was just silly bad.

 

[sexbutler]

Does anyone else think that black superman is a great idea? Cause I sure as hell do

You know I had this exact arguement with my father on the way home from Thor and my answer is no. Since WWII Superman, Clark Kent, the main character of the DC universe, has been depicted with caucasian features. Now if krypton was written to also have black residents, and one of them worked along side, or took over for Superman, I'd be cool with that. But turning Clark Kent black is something I can't get behind.

I dunno, in this new Zack Snyder Superman, theyre rebooting the movies so i could get behind a black Superman (provided they cant get Brandon Routh).

Im just a mythology buff, so it bothers me that they stuck non white actors (however good) in the Norse pantheon, it just doesnt make sense that thered be gods darker than the sickly shade of off white afflicting most of us in the western world.

 

[honestdiscussioner]

Am I upset about a black guy being cast in a white role? Nah. Don't care really. ESPECIALLY if he was as awesome as everyone says. I think they are allowed to change a character, especially through if they are modernizing it.

My only issue is that we shouldn't be allowing double standards at all. Sure, slavery was one HELL of a double standard that puts the "movie role" double standard to quintuple shame to the power of infinity, but a lesser injustice is still an injustice, and should not be allowed. Me robbing your store doesn't give you the right to step on my son's foot.

Am I being idealistic? Not exactly, because I'm not saying we shouldn't tolerate double standards, or that the only acceptable situation is when there are no double standards, only that we should constantly be aiming for as few as possible. We should not give free passes to a group who was fucked over centuries ago, simply because as long as they get that free pass, we as a society will never truly move on. It will continue to haunt and hurt both sides and I'd prefer we work towards that no longer happening.

Did you miss Bob's point that the massive double standards being used against non-whites STILL EXIST TODAY? Not nearly as bad as they USED to be obviously, but if you'd honestly claim that a black person in modern-day America is in every way equal to a white person, you're deluded.

Umm . . . did you miss the point where I said we shouldn't allow ANY stereotypes or double standards, and that the existence of a double standard against one group does not mean it is okay for there to be a reverse double standard against the other group? You know, "two wrongs don't make a right", basic morality 101 here?

 

[Blindswordmaster]

Movie Bob's perfect world is My Little Pony? That's...that scares me.

 

[angel85]

I loved how the perfect world was My Little Pony and not that hypothetical dimension from Countdown. But yeah, that had to be the bluntest point you ever made, but it was an excellent one.

 

[Paulrus_Keaton]

The ponies distracted me. I honestly forgot his whole point and examples once he brought up that picture.

I'm seriously disappointed in myself. I hope I can be forgiven.

 

[honestdiscussioner]

We should not give free passes to a group who was fucked over centuries ago, simply because as long as they get that free pass, we as a society will never truly move on. It will continue to haunt and hurt both sides and I'd prefer we work towards that no longer happening.

While there might be some lazy niggas who would love a free pass, I for one feel that we never wanted a "free pass" just a fair shake. Also being that I have more white friends then i done black friends i was never a fan of white guilt, it always seemed weird for an entire generation to carrying the shame that only a few alive rightly deserve. So i don't see the Thor casting as a "win" for black people all i see in an talented actor playing a role his great in

I am not a fan of white guilt either . . . or any racially motivated guilt either. The sins of the father are NOT the sins of the son. We are accountable for our own actions, no more and no less.

If we truly want equality, we have to try to get past it all, and not bring up the past as a motivation for tipping the scales in the future. Everyone should have an equal shot.

NOW I'm being idealistic.

 

[Bocaj2000]

I'd like to say quite clearly, I seriously do not care about the Thor Movie or it's casting. I haven't seen it and probably won't any time soon. That said, I think your pretty full of it Bob.

You see, the thing with double standards is that there is no talking them nice. So, because in theory, because some ancestors of mine (of which I wouldn't know, neither History wise nor family wise, nor do I have any interest in it) could have possibly been Slave Owners, it is ok to villify me? If anything, that is something I have been noticing, every minority group I can imagine seems to have a common problem with atleast 1 if not all the groups I just so happen to have been born into. Yeah, I'm white, Male and heterosexuell, man, I truely am akin to Satan. Ofcourse I have never done anything to anybody, but drawer thinking is obviously ok aslong as we aren't talking about a minority. For some reason, which is beyond me, it's ok for a feminist to generalize Men as a whole and put me in the same drawer the actual sexists are in. I'm white, so obviously, I'm some kind of racist. And seriously, what was I thinking being all heterosexuell and everything, obviously that means that I hates homosexuells. But, isn't this kind of thinking exactly what each and every one of those Groups out there don't like? Well, if we are talking abot their groups atleast?

See Bob, that's what people mean when they use that term ''political correctness'' most of us are nice, we just get kind of tired of being the constant boogie men. Basically, what alot of people actually mean by political correctness, and apparently you belong to these people, is anything but being correct. It's more along the lines of, tipping the scale in the other direction. Personally Bob, I'd like to see a world where pigmentation, gender and sexual preference play absolutely no role in day to day interaction. And guess what? People like you are prohibiting that just as much as every racist. sexist and homophobe out there. I'd say even more so, because there are quite obviously more people that think like you then actual hateful people, even if your way of looking at things probably makes you out as some kind of lone crusader. Especially on a site like the escapist, where presumeably most of us are fairly young and most of us likely never learned anything other then all people being equal, people like you raise up discussion where for most people there is nothing to discuss.

In short: Double standards are ALWAYS bad and you thinking this is a acceptable form instead of actually working towards a real solution, is straight out stupid, a non oppinion, someone basically putting themselves on a podest of righteusness for no reason whatsoever.

Now go on and flame me.

Flame you? If you insist.

First of all, fix your grammar. Periods and commas are not interchangeable.

Second of all, from what i understood, your argument is extremely fallacious and you put words in someone else's mouth, which makes your argument even more fallacious.

Third of all, the rule of absolutes, using the words "always" and "never" adds even MORE fallacy to your argument.

Fourth of all, Night of the Living Dead (1968) was one of the FIRST movies to have a black protagonist. Until then, they were portrayed very immaturely and in a racist fashion (watch the movie "Bamboozled"). To believe that type casting does not exist today is very ignorant.

Fifth of all, read his fucking disclaimer. This his opinion on HIS opinion show. If you don't like his rants, then you are watching if for the sole purpose to complain, which is very unhealthy.

 

[searanox]

I disagree that the history of racism is relevant, as such. It's only the racism that exists in society now that matters. However, that's just a minor quibble.

Except that historical racism is directly responsible for the existing (and still damaging) racism that exists within North America today.

Really, this all goes back to the issue of white privilege and one group of people who almost never, ever have to have their role in society, ability, intelligence, life prospects and so on put into question experiencing the same thing that visible minorities have to every day of their lives. It's amazing how so few people are able to translate the offense they might feel into a genuine understanding of the social conditions of North American culture.

 

[MaxwellMurder]

WERE THE F#$% IS MY SAMURAI PIZZA CATS!!!!

 

[theultimateend]

Am I upset about a black guy being cast in a white role? Nah. Don't care really. ESPECIALLY if he was as awesome as everyone says. I think they are allowed to change a character, especially through if they are modernizing it.

He was playing a terrifying badass and he did it perfectly.

That's really all that could be said.

If a bunch of white folks weren't getting self righteous about how he deserved the part I'd have never even thought about it.

He got the part because of WHO he is and not WHAT he is. I like that most people are stroking on how amazing a person he is, I'm just sad they follow it up with "for being a black guy" (effectively).

Also let it be known that probably 99% of the people posting on the escapist have not owned slaves, don't plan to own slaves, and probably don't even have parents who owned slaves.

Judging a modern people by the actions of past generations is a dick move.

Seriously ask the Jews how much they like getting mistreated because of a supposed injustice two thousand years ago? I'm sure they aren't exactly delighted.

Right because no negative stereotypes about whites exist.

And don't you forget it.

Fourth of all, Night of the Living Dead (1968) was one of the FIRST movies to have a black protagonist. Until then, they were portrayed very immaturely and in a racist fashion (watch the movie "Bamboozled"). To believe that type casting does not exist today is very ignorant.

You are probably a swell guy but two points.

A) 1968 is probably decades before most of the people you are talking to or about were even born. It's exactly 17 years before I was alive. So by that note it is not "today".

B) Yes type casting does exist...just ask this guy:

Or the Rock being stuck with a bunch of children's films. (Tooth Fairy, Race to Witch Mountain, Gameplan...etc etc...)

Or just about every actor who basically only gets offered villain roles because of how they look.

Type casting is alive and well for more reasons than racism. It's laziness.

NOTE: To clarify, Racism is lame as hell and racists are some of the most annoying people on the planet. I've worked retail and had people tell me about "negros" and heard all kinds of crazy racist shit that I wouldn't even say to close friends.

Racism is terrible terrible bullshit.

But for the sake of everything sane. Could people respond to it without going "We must times this shit by -1 and reach for the stars!"

The final point from bob about how there just aren't that many minority spots because of history is solid reasoning. It should have been his entire point, because that is grade A bullshit that is a direct result of the past. But telling folks "eat shit because your ancestors were assholes" is just not a good dialogue option. (I am paraphrasing, it was more like suck it up).