The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[knhirt]

I sort of agree with Bob, and I sort of disagree. In my mind, the world we live in might as well be ideal, in the sense that mostly, race doesn't bother me at all when it comes to casting in movies.
I just don't really think about it. If the performance is good, hell, cast a black man as Gandalf and see how much I care.

Of course, if that black man does a bad job at depicting Gandalf I'll be pretty upset about wasting my money on a ticket, but that goes for all skin-tones.

Seriously, people. It's skin.
Not a big deal unless it's made a big deal.

 

[Harlief]

Well said sir!

 

[00slash00]

i thought the reason people were upset about the dragon ball movie was because it was a train wreck, not because it had a white goku. i mean i never thought goku seemed all that asian to begin with. except for series that take place in feudal japan or clearly state it doesnt take place in the west, i can think of very few series where i instantly think, "okay, hes asian." besides, goku comes from a place where the people there think they are superior to everyone else, are overly aggressive and constantly trying to conquer other places...sounds like an american to me

as far as saying is okay to cast a white guy black but not a black guy white...i gotta say that by this point in my life, im not sure how much guilt i have left. i mean i couldnt care less if they decided to make spider man a black guy, or made him gay or whatever else they wanted to do with the character. they could make a metal gear movie and make snake a girl for all i care. its just that...i can only apologize for the fucked up shit my ancestors did so many times, before it stops being sincere. how come a comic fan can complain that a character doesnt look the way in the film, that they do in the comic, and they are seen as a hardcore fan, but if they say that about a black character who, in the comic, is white, they are seen as a racist? whether you judge someone based on their skin or give someone special treatment because of the color of their skin, either way you are being racist

 

[feeqmatic]

Yeah but modern folks aren't responsible for that slavery so to use that as an excuse for double standards is also silly.

As an African American i get real tired of the "I didnt own any slaves" argument against the effects of slavery.

True, no one alive today owned any slaves, but whether you admit it or not, you are a direct benefactor of the institution of slavery, and institutionalized racism. And conversley those elements affect me and others on a daily basis.

I don't expect people to necessarily feel bad about this, but when someone brings it up, it can get incredibly frustrating to hear that cop out stance as if it negates the feelings and struggles that me other people have faced for our entire lives. Its really just hurtful to hear that nonsense.

The first step to eliminating double standards on all levels is to admit where they exist, and the double standard for African Americans (which exists greatly due to slavery) is so completely ignored by comments like this that it only helps to maintain the issue.

That said, i do recognize that the casting would probably be better off (for the sake of realism...lol) being a white guy. I recognize that being norse mythology, that this possibly was not the scenario where such color blind casting should take place. however, it did not require the vitriol that occurred here, that i didnt see for:

dragon ball z,
Spawn,
Prince of persia,
The last Air bender,
Sinbad the sailor,
A mighty heart,
stuck,
Kung Fu,
21,
The Passion of Christ,
Cleopatra,
pretty much any movie with a main Native American Role...


Im pretty sure with more time and more google i could make a list a mile long.

 

[Monsterfurby]

Where does the need to overthink this come from?

They just chose a great actor for a role he was fit to play. Does it say anywhere the character is white/black/blue/polka dotted? No, it does not. Therefore, isn't the only worthy thought whether the guy is a good actor or not?

I really don't get why all the far-fetched theory about slavery has to come in.

Then again, I'm European, so maybe I am just too far removed from the US-debate on this.

 

[Relin]

Well, points to Bob for explaining his position clearly. At least he has a position to consider.

The black Heimdal character (!!!) raises over 9000 questions to the movie universe. Is he the only black guy in Asgard? Does it mean he has any special powers? Does it indicate any special origin of his character - did he (like Loki) is an orphan of some other race than Asgardians?
None of it explained. None of it even mentioned.
In 30 years someone like Nostalgia Critic would review Thor and scream "Why? Explain, movie! EXPLAIN!"

The answer is actually simple - the movie was not expected to provide immersion. The movie was not expecting the viewer to pay attention to the detail. The movie was not expected to be viewed seriously - because the movie was afraid of being serious (directors should have considered the Fifth Element - the movie is completely ridiculous, yet every detail in it is exactly where it should be).
Thor was just a bottle of maple syrup given to an ADHD child.
Ok, I get it. I just don't agree with it.

P.S. "...he rocks the role" Ok, I had enough of it.
This guys's role had no emotions, not a single facial expression or body language, no voice acting. The only hint at internal conflict (Does he accept the new king or does he resist) was completely botched in execution by movie producers. I don't think you can say ANYTHING about Elba's acting skills with such a stupid role, but then again the movie in general requested little to no actual acting from the cast.

So saying that he was awesome in playing his character is wrong.
His character was awesome, or rather his character was "awesome" - meaning that Heimdal had certain simple characteristics that immediately makes your character "good" in front of teen and tween demographic. It's the same stupid cultural phenomenon, that is responsible for "ninja, robot, zombie, pirate" or "bacon makes everything better" or multiple other example we all know and hate.

Nice Reply. Just wanted to acknowledge and praise your coherent post.

 

[Relin]

double post... sorry

 

[LondonBeer]

Erm ... not to derail but can we have one on Samurai Pizza Cats please

 

[Comando96]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

And modern blacks haven't benefitted from that history of slavery?

By and large and as a group in the United States, no, they haven't. They've suffered and continue to suffer from those vestiges.

Apart from the fact that they're even in the United states in the first place, with a chance to make something of themselves?

You're kidding, right? I've never read the history where the West Africans lined up and fought each other for a berth on a slave ship headed to the New World. As I recall, they ended up here kicking and screaming.

Pretty sure I was talking about modern black Americans there, yep just checked, I was. I don't dispute that it was hell for those involved in the actual slavery part.

Do you understand what a "vestige" is? And why is your account of History stopping at the abolition of slavery? The unfair treatment of blacks in American wasn't legally abolished until the 1950s (see Brown v. Board of Education and related cases) and, in some cases, later than that (it was illegal for blacks to marry whites until the 1970s (see Virginia v. Loving) and the school desegregation cases, some of which festered on until the early 1980s)).

You were the one that mentioned about the slaves coming to America not me. I probably should say that I'm English so I'm not really inculcated in the history of America.

I do personally believe that racism in any form is wrong and yes I accept that it's only been recently that you could say it's even possibly on an even keel for all races (Probably not true as such) but as I said at the beginning, my statement wasn't so much that institutional racism no longer exists in America but that MODERN blacks have benefitted from slavery.

Not in any financial sense but rather in a sense that though their "people" have suffered, they themselves individually can achieve a great deal of things that would probably have been denied them had their ancestors not suffered so terribly.

I'm in danger of Godwinning myself here but do you think a German owes a Jew a debt because of the Terrible suffering of the Jewish during the war?

I think it should be acknowledged but it shouldn't be the defining character of those people.

The Germans obviously think they do.

Germany, by way of agreement with Israel, has paid $715 million in goods and services to the State of Israel as compensation for taking in survivors of the Holocaust; $110 million to the Claims Conference for programs to finance the relief, rehabilitation, and resettlement of Jewish Holocaust survivors; and direct reparations to selected individuals over a 12-year period amounting to several hundred million dollars and still counting.

Thats because those people are still alive... or were alive when compensation was paid.
With African Americans the idea was that they were all descendants of Slavery but to compensate they were given citizenship and equal rights(eventually...supposedly).

As far as I see it history cannot be undone, but what should happen now is that race should not count... but financial status, no matter your colour should. Help the poor... if the poor are black due to institutionalized reasons then so be it, still help'em.
I've gone beyond acting but in America if a black neighbourhood is destroyed in a hurricane for example I bet that years and years afterwards it would still be rubble. Contrast that to a white neighbourhood :| Yeah... a year at max if planning the building takes a while.

I think the time when positive discrimination should disappear is when racism has disappeared... or balanced out evenly on both sides >.>

 

[Icenflame]

Brilliant thoughts BOB! really enjoy the work you put out keep up the good work!

 

[rreetteepp]

Thing is, when they cast that white guy as goku... the white guy was a terrible actor and the movie was crap. wheras when they cast samuel jackson as fury, he was freeking awsome and the movies with him where awsome

 

[michiehoward]

Its not PC to say all this MovieBob it pure fact, awesome suming up of a topic that should have never been a freaking topic in the first place. WINNING

 

[michiehoward]

I sort of agree with Bob, and I sort of disagree. In my mind, the world we live in might as well be ideal, in the sense that mostly, race doesn't bother me at all when it comes to casting in movies.
I just don't really think about it. If the performance is good, hell, cast a black man as Gandalf and see how much I care.

Of course, if that black man does a bad job at depicting Gandalf I'll be pretty upset about wasting my money on a ticket, but that goes for all skin-tones.

Seriously, people. It's skin.
Not a big deal unless it's made a big deal.

But the black Gandalf isn't gonna suck because he's black.

Anyway....

Just like if this actor did horrible it wouldn't be because he's a black man. And lets face it Superhero movie's when it comes to quality depends a whole boatload on the audience's ability to suspend their disbelief. Your not gonna find many Oscar worthy performances, even for an actor who's job it is is to pretend, playing Gods, and Invincible immortals can be difficult as it qualifies outside of the realm of human understanding, not much you can relate to.

Why do you think they choose Anthony Hopkins for Odin, he has a history in the theatre, he can play to the back of the house, as it were. Gesticulating and booming notes in his voice, I wasn't surprised that Brannagh was picked to direct, again theatre experience.


What was my point.....blood hell can't remember

 

[knhirt]

But the black Gandalf isn't gonna suck because he's black.

Precisely!


All in all, there are worthier things to nerdrage about, such as Klaus not wearing his iconic glasses in the Series of Unfortunate Events film. What a disaster.

 

[Griffolion]

To be honest, all the characters in Thor could have been black, it would still have been a good movie (so long as the substituted black actors were good caliber). Race honestly has no bearing on my opinion of things, so this genuinely didn't affect me at all. We're all human, I don't get why that's so hard for some people to grasp.

 

[TStormer]

That was pretty accurate and summed up the argument well.

Also ponies <3

 

[Kenami]

i thought the reason people were upset about the dragon ball movie was because it was a train wreck, not because it had a white goku. i mean i never thought goku seemed all that asian to begin with.

Seriously! Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

[WaderiAAA]

Can you do an explanation of the after credits scene from Thor next week?