The Big Picture: Skin Deep

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samus17

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Jun 5, 2010
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While a black man being cast as a Norse god wasn't a deal breaker for me, it did stand out. If you want diversity in your movies, that's FINE, just do it right! Asgard, a land populated ONLY with Norse gods, was WAY more diverse than a town in the United States. That is doing it wrong! Double standards are an issue and shouldn't be excused because of the actions we could not control by our ancestors. And it isn't only black Heimdall; one of the warriors three was Asian. That bothered me JUST as equally. Norse mythology was full of a bunch of white people; we shouldn't HAVE to work AROUND that.

Also ponies.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
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Uhm no, sorry, but a black Superman will not fly for me. Nor will a black Batman.

Skipping the whole "sins of our past", all I care about visual continuity. Making an iconic character like Superman black would be just as weird as giving him extremely long blond hair. Weren't you the one who hated the X-Men costumes in the movies because the iconic imagery was changed in order to suit the mainstream? That's what it's all about, so let's not draw the race card again.

Incidentally, I never really understood what race Goku was supposed be at all. He never really looked very asian and I doubt there even was a Japan or China in the universe of Dragon Ball.
 

hexFrank202

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My standard has always been to consider the color of one's skin like the color of their hair or the color of their eyes. Behavioral tendencies? That's other genetics, and culture and stuff. Totally different thing. That's how I look at it.

So casting a black guy in a formerly white role is okay if said black guy is awesome in that role. And it works the other way, too.

If a book about a badass asian man gets a movie based on it starring Christian Bale, because the studio felt the 'general audience' couldn't relate to an asian guy, that'd be racist. If the book got a movie starring Bruce Campbell, because the studio knew how badass Bruce Campbell is and thinks he'd be perfect for the role, that'd not be racist. Maybe stupid, but not racist.

As some people have said, your idea of the need to perpetuate double standards is kind of weird. But I think I get it. I think I understand why you feel that way. People like me (and most of the people disagreeing with you on this video) perceive the world as illustrated by Louie Armstrong. We didn't one day just decide to love the world, and it doesn't mean we're all nice people, we were just raised in a way that made us think of the world as being a good place, and having potential for greatness everywhere.

Then there are people like you who, for one reason or another, see the world under Murphy's Law. I won't know why, and it doesn't mean you're a dick, but just through no fault of your own you have a cynical outlook of existence.

So you see racism and double standards as something that can never be killed and can only be supplemented with guilt and special treatment. Other people see racism as something that's only lingering in the old boobs for a few more years until it gets plucked away and becomes as unpopular as rape and murder. And so we should just all be genuinely tolerant and have a problem with the double standards the movie-going public has on this topic.
 

Russano_Greenstripe

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bj_waters said:
I don't care what ANYBODY says, I want an episode (if not multiple episodes) devoted to Samurai Pizza Cats. And, while I'm dreaming, I want the entire series remastered put on DVD or Blu-Ray along with its Japanese original with subs. And a big screen television to play them on. With home theater surround sound. And some cake.
From what I understand, the original Japanese version was played a whole lot more straight than the US version; the dubbers basically threw out the original script and wrote a brand new one. The original Japanese team has gone on record saying that the US version is better.
 

Imp_Emissary

Mages Rule, and Dragons Fly!
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MovieBob said:
Skin Deep

Sometimes embracing a double standard is the right thing to do.

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So, a world that never had bigotry and hatred would be a would of many differentially colored ponys?
I don't know if its because I'm white or because I'm a human male, but I don't think I would be all for that.
( Not that I wouldn't want to save my differentially colored brother and sister humans from the hells that they suffered.
I just don't know if I would want to be a pony to get it done.)

p.s. I would like to see a Samurai Pizza Cats episode. Sounds neat.
 

TheSchaef

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Just as food for thought, and not necessarily because I disapprove of the casting of Heimdall on its face (the Warriors Three, after all, seem to be modeled after an Englishman, a Scot and a Mongol) - and definitely not because I recognize Sif's Jaime Alexander as Jesse from the show Kyle XY - but isn't Nordic culture also something worthy of treatment and exploration? While still technically European, Scandinavia's kind of up there by themselves compared to England, France, Italy, Germany, countries that form the core of the European experience. The producers must have thought so a little bit, since they cast Stellan Skarsgard in the film, but they took advantage of the opportunity to go diverse (again, prompted in no small part by the already-diverse collection of Asgardians) rather than go full-on Nordic and highlight anything particularly unique about their culture.

My problem with political correctness is not in getting terms like n***er and wop and kike out of the American lexicon, my problem is when people file lawsuits when asked to turn off their cell phones in a movie theater [http://jonathanturley.org/2011/02/23/delaware-supreme-court-overturns-ruling-that-movie-announcement-to-turn-off-cellphones-was-racist/]. The version of Political Correctness that is most universally supported is also known as Just Being Polite and Sensitive to the Needs and Wishes of Others, which people should be doing anyway without a racial or similar component. That makes a lot more sense to me than to say that if I'm not treated fairly for whatever reason, I should just suck it up because some other white guys did the slavery and colonialism bit a hundred years before any of my ancestors got on a boat from Germany (they missed both slavery and the Third Reich by a good 30 or 40 years each, and never lived anywhere but Ohio thereafter).

There actually seems if anything to be a triple-standard in Hollywood - not just double - whereby "Negroid" culture should be preserved and well-represented at all costs, any "Caucasoid" culture regardless of distinction from any other (e.g. Nordic vs. Italian) is expendable for purposes of diversification, and "Mongoloid" cultures are subject to "whitewashing" in order to mainstream an Eastern story for a Western audience. That last aspect is especially ironic as Asian characters are sometimes tossed into the "token diversity" mix, meaning we have Asian characters to keep a movie from looking "too white" and white characters to keep a movie from looking "too Asian" (see also: Airbender).

The real shame of this is some of the most memorable characters in cinema are simple, honest representations of their culture. Pat Morita, while American-born, is strongly descended from Japanese and portrayed a number of Asian characters in TV and movies (a Japanese navy admiral, a South Korean army captain, the emperor of China). The particular example I'm thinking of is the immortal Mr. Miyagi, where aside from training Daniel-san, he also gave a stirring insight into the inhabitants of Okinawa, occupied by US forces in WWII (our bases still take up about 20% of the island), and many of whom signed up to fight with the Americans to prove their loyalty, even as their families were interned (Miyagi lost his wife and son in Manzanar). He was the personification of a noble people in the face of wartime policies whose morality and effectiveness were questionable.

So I don't know if casting Heimdall black deprived America of a good glimpse into Nordic culture (considering it's a superhero movie based on their ancient mythologies, the impact is probably minimal), but it was a damn good casting. Casting a white Miyagi definitely would have deprived people of a glimpse of a tiny Pacific island culture, and while Airbender may yet be just another fantasy film, I think as a whole, culturally-accurate casting can have the real impact of introducing people to new and unique cultures, and not the feel-good faux impact of having every story sprinkled with one of everything. Another good example would be Invictus, which explored not only the rampant racial tension that continued long after the end of Aparthied, but also Mandela's efforts to build bridges for reconciliation more than restitution.
 

RanD00M

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Hæmdall? It's pronounced Heimdall, like in Corey Haim.

Also this topic and your points were kinda "no shit" worthy. Sure the general populous hasn't really taken it in, it is still pretty known.
 

drisky

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Bobic said:
drisky said:
My mind kind of wondered to SAMURI PIZZA CATS! OH YEAH!

Bobic said:
Is it ok that I, a British person, find the casting of a nordic god as black a bit daft because I am without all that slave owning history guilt? (Although I am sure Idris is awesome in Thor as he is a great actor. I saw his BBC series Luther and he kicked ass, you should all go watch it now)
What? Unless your Scottish, yes you do. Where do you think early america learned every thing it did? Racist fairies?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Britain_and_Ireland
Bah, most of those slaves probably weren't black. But, for the sake of those few that were. I'll go with the 'why should I be blamed what some people who probably aren't even related to me did 200 years ago just because I happen to be the same ethnicity' argument. In fact, I'd say it's racist of you to act like it's my fault simply because I share the same ethnicity.
Fine by me, I'm just saying its not to different form America, which abolished it only 32 years later. So no, I don't think you should be held acceptable, and believe me I've been called a slave owner, Native American killer, and Pagan killer directly to my face based on my ethnicity and religious background. I know the receiving end of racism. But America and Britain aren't that different, and I'm not completely sure of this, but I don't think every brit lacks "white guilt". But it all comes down to racial inequality that was quite prevalent in the time when super heros were being developed. Since its hard to find big name non-white heros, they settle for changing insularly characters, even if said character comes form something directly inspired by something European.
 

Kuth

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Jan 14, 2009
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Being mixed I could care less about the color of the guy who plays the role but I see the valid arguments. Bob is right, it's a double standard but that's just life. On that note, did any make this much of a big deal when Samuel Jackson took the role as Nick Fury? Well no, several reasons being him in the comic books for a time gave the whole racial tension a nice buffer. So when it did come out, Samuel Jackson doing Nick Fury was more on the lines of "hell yeah!" then "Hell No!"

But more to the point, Movie Bob is right. The man did his job, most people are done with it and life goes on. I mean hell, if I try to go into acting my roles would be limited and sadly would be in racial sterotypes that are not even my race.
 

For.I.Am.Mad

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May 8, 2010
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I need to give props to my fellow Americans. The bigots of Hollywood thought they could cash in on white bitterness this year but they miscalculated. Ticket sales are down and Fast Five beat out Thor for domestic opening weekend. The bigots of Hollywood can still peddle out that bigoted crap to the international market but in America it's not working.

And to the bigots of Hollywood. FUCK. YOU. And Tron Legacy sucked.
 

Dansrage

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[rant] I am so goddamn tired of this pervasive and insulting trend of white guilt, the sins of the fathers, as if i can be responsable for ancient atrocities simply because of who my ancestors were. My ancestors never owned slaves, my ancestors are Danish on my father's side and Welsh on my mother's, am i also responsable for viking attacks on the English? Should i go find some descendant of Anglo peasants and give him money because my great great great great great great uncle twice removed on my father's side killed his sheep? Since my ancestors also lived in England should i go find an Irish guy and apologise to him for something that is entirely out of my control and should by all rights be forgotten? Should i pay reperations to India, or what about the Americans themselves, surely i owe them millions of Euros for the revolutionary war?
White guilt is BLATANT and REPULSIVE racism towards whites, MY RACE, oh, i forgot, whites aren't allowed to be a race because only white people can be racist.
FUCK YOU Bob, have some pride, nay, have some DIGNITY.
Slavery justifies NOTHING, not a single black person living in America today is or ever was a slave, not a single white person living in the entire western world was or is a slave owner, i don't know if you noticed but the evil white monsters freed all the slaves. Slavery is not a "get out of jail free" card, you can't justify ANYTHING that way.
"Hurr durr it's okay to cast a traditional white role as a black man because slavery durr", bullshit. Would you cast Blade as a white guy? Would you make a movie about Nelson Mandela as played by Nicholas Cage? Of course fucking not, it's got NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, it's common sense, and a Nordic God should not be played by a black man, not because i'm an evil slave owning racist, but BECAUSE NORSE GODS ARE WHITE.
The fucking stupidity of you people amazes me, you allow the REAL racists, the people demanding you pay reperations simply because of your skin colour, to walk all over you in the name of equality. Equality is not one group getting handouts and privelages because of the colour of their skin.

I don't give two shits who plays this guy, i'm not even familiar with the comic books, but the outrage on both sides repulses me, racism only becomes an issue when you MAKE IT AN ISSUE.
I hope you read this Bob, you idiot. [/rant]

I'll probably get banned now for being an evil neo-Nazi fascist who hates freedom, go ahead, but i've said my piece.
 

googleback

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Apr 15, 2009
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the man himself Idris Elba doesn't want race to be a part of the discussion when it comes to his character.
I believe in casting that is only Racially profiling when the character is WRITTEN as that particular race. and by that I mean not just a casual "he's white btw" from the writer.

The Reason James Bond is white is because back when the character was originally written you wouldn't have seen a black guy in such a position. especially in that backwards and primitive time of segregation and prejudice...

Today? why couldn't he be? why couldn't (for example) IDRIS ELBA (one of my country's FINEST film actors) PLAY A BRITISH SECRET AGENT? Just throwing it out there!

seriously! think back over Casino Royale and just copy Paste Elba over Daniel Craig? bond is pretty ambiguous as it is right? can anybody REALLY tell me he couldn't pull it off?
 

Mantonio

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Apr 15, 2009
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I see where you're coming from, but I heavily disagree that we should have a double standard now because of a double standard in the past. On a basic lever, two wrongs don't make a right. On a more advanced level, switching your favouritism from one group to another with the logic of 'Now it's your turn' has shown in the past (and maybe even still nowadays) to actually make things worse, and cause resentment on both sides.
 

TheSchaef

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Feb 1, 2008
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Posted separately so as not to get lost in the tome I just wrote, but Bob MUST DO SAMURAI PIZZA CATS! What is better than a spoof on the ninja turtles, which itself used to be a spoof on superhero comics?

Taking a sidebar from that, I was always curious to get Bob's thoughts on the TMNT reboot from a couple years back, and the recent studio decision to go back to real-life actors in rubber costumes for the upcoming re-reboot.
 

Niljen

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May 10, 2011
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I think it's totaly okay to replace a white charakter with an Black actor. Good example for this were the FF4 movies in which Jessica Alba played the invisible woman....what? She is not black?....Uhm....so what about Dwayne the Rock Johnson...he is black, right!? ^^
 

Archmike

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Sep 9, 2008
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Pwnd it there bob. Nice one :)

Samurai Pizza Cats next please! :D

Edit: Oooh or Thundercats! ^_^