The Big Picture: Stone Soup

[The Random One]

Nice one, Bob. Though I'd make a distinction between something that is formulaic to release both creators' and viewers' mindspace so that they can focus on something else (like the Avengers, Avatar, or how every fantasy story either has a formulaic story to draw attention to the world or a formulaic world to draw attention to the story) and something like the Flintstones, which is formulaic because the joke is how the formula applies to a completely different setting. I reckon you could see this kind of formula as a deconstruction lite.

 

[daxterx2005]

flintstone kids next week awww yeah!

 

[Rednog]

Aha, finally. Now, the next time people are bitching about Mario or Zelda games being formulaic, I can just point them here and say "his argument applies to the titles in question."

Man, I'd nearly forgotten about this show. I don't remember nearly any of it, but I do remember some of the weird shit that went on later. Also, does the Jetsons count as a spinoff? Or were they parallel?

You kind of missed the point of the argument. The argument doesn't apply to something like Nintendo games because they are sequentially being formulaic their previous iterations. While something like the Avengers was formulaic in the overarching plot it was still used for something new. We haven't had an Avengers movie before. However if this was say Avengers 4 and they were still sticking to the same, Act I: Introduce Avengers; Act II: They disagree; Act III They band together it would be a big problem.
Same with the Flinstones, while it uses tropes from sitcoms and the honeymooners it wrapped them up into something new, it's not like they had another prehistoric 60's parody around.

If Nintendo made a game that sort of felt like Zelda and carried the plot of say Metroid and looked like Mario one could argue and say yea sure it's formulaic and really doesn't bring anything new to the table, but it is a solid new game/series. Whereas with the current Nintendo franchises it's like oh look, it's formulaic and that's bad because we've seen the exact same thing before.
There is a big difference between following tropes and being a slightly off carbon copy.

PS: Just because a person makes videos for the internet doesn't suddenly make their word gold. Just because someone like Bob, Yahtzee, Jim, Extra Credits say something it doesn't mean you should follow it blindly nor expect to post their argument and have it suddenly be the end all be all of an argument. It could be a well rationalized argument but very few, if any, arguments are the final answer to a problem.

 

[Krion_Vark]

When he said "plot formula," who here immediately thought of Detective Conan/Case Closed? Seriously, entire episodes were written like a Madlib:

RAN: So you were all in the [activity usually associated with European upper class] at university

[FEMALE CHARACTER WHO INVITED THEM AND IS THE ONLY ONE INNOCENT OF ALL OF THEM]: Yes, until [Dead Girlfriend/Boyfriend of the KILLER] passed/killed him/herself.

[VICTIM 1 AND THE ROOT CAUSE OF SAID-GIRLFRIEND/BOYFRIEND"S DEATH, Yelling]: All you shut up, I don't want to talk about him/her. I'm going to grab a smoke/take a bath. [Exit's for a few hours only to be found dead later...]

The manga is actually advancing the main plot now I am very happy for that one.

 

[Tireseas_v1legacy]

When he said "plot formula," who here immediately thought of Detective Conan/Case Closed? Seriously, entire episodes were written like a Madlib:

RAN: So you were all in the [activity usually associated with European upper class] at university

[FEMALE CHARACTER WHO INVITED THEM AND IS THE ONLY ONE INNOCENT OF ALL OF THEM]: Yes, until [Dead Girlfriend/Boyfriend of the KILLER] passed/killed him/herself.

[VICTIM 1 AND THE ROOT CAUSE OF SAID-GIRLFRIEND/BOYFRIEND"S DEATH, Yelling]: All you shut up, I don't want to talk about him/her. I'm going to grab a smoke/take a bath. [Exit's for a few hours only to be found dead later...]

The manga is actually advancing the main plot now I am very happy for that one.

On the other hand, it is currently chapter 817...

 

[TheRocketeer]

Want proof that the FLINTSTONES. ARE. WEEEEEEIIIIIIRD? Go check out The Flintstones: On the Rocks.

A movie about Fred and Wilma taking a vacation in a last ditch attempt to salvage their failing marriage, complete with Fred's stop-motion fantasy about dancing and making out with another woman. It was a pretty jarring gearshift when I saw it on Cartoon Network as a kid.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

One thing I liked was the cross-overs they had with the Jetsons. So many popular I.P's under one company and you could do things like that.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I love The Flintstones. Absolutely adore them. Aside from the obvious that The Flintstones is an amazing cartoon, Fred looks totally like my dad, and sometimes even acts like him. Which made it so much better for me when I was a kid.

 

[maninahat]

Speaking of shoddy criticism. I've seen quite a disturbingly high amount of movie reviews, Metacritic'ed movie reviews, that started with "I couldn't stand trough more than 15 minutes of this, therefore, I give it a zero". While I would understand that in the case of obviously bad movies, I've seen such reviews of things that weren't that bad actually. I think Melancholia was one.
This type of behavior really bugs me, since my current job requires me to review video games. Often horrible video games, and I make sure to play them properly, at least once, to make sure that when I review it, I actually know what I'm talking about.

I kind of see where you're coming from, but at the same time, if a game is so bad that you can't even keep playing it, than surely you've picked up everything you need to know to tell the consumer right? Tell people that you couldn't play/watch for more than half an hour, and maybe you'll save them their money by discouraging them from going through the same experperience.

I'd like to throw in advice for the sake of people who read reviews:
a) Don't get pissy when a reviewer says bad things about a show you like
Really, do I need to explain this one? It is absurd to expect there to be a reviewer out there who perfectly matches your tastes. Don't even bother looking for one.

b) Don't demand your reviewers to be objective/balanced/unbiased etc.
There is no point whatsoever to a reviewer who doesn't have tastes, likes and dislikes, bad moods etc. What you end up with is reviewers trying to review genres they don't even like, essentially lying to the audience about their experience because they're playing a type of game they would rather not play. Instead, find reviewers who wear their prejudices on their shoulder, and make it very clear what they like and dislike.

c) Know when to disregard reviewers
The big one. In accordance with the point above, the better reviewers are the ones who are transparent about their tastes. This is why people like Yahtzee or MovieBob are useful as critics - we know that Moviebob isn't the biggest fan of shooters, we know that Yahtzee isn't into JRPGS. Therefore, if you like jRPGs, you know that you can disregard much of the criticisms Yahtzee makes about them. If you don't like jRPGs, than pay attention to the few Yahtzee praises, because those will be the jRPGs that have outsider appeal and ones which you might like too. It's all about matching tastes with relevant points of view.

 

[k-ossuburb]

Hopefully I'm going to find out what the hell the deal was with that weird alien dude. Was it all in Fred's head? Was he real? Is it an allegory for God?

I wish to know these answers.

 

[honeybakedham]

Character Archetypes2 + Standard Plot2= $2
Glad you brought up such a sedimental favorite.

Haha! I see what you did there

 

[BehattedWanderer]

You kind of missed the point of the argument. The argument doesn't apply to something like Nintendo games because they are sequentially being formulaic their previous iterations. While something like the Avengers was formulaic in the overarching plot it was still used for something new. We haven't had an Avengers movie before. However if this was say Avengers 4 and they were still sticking to the same, Act I: Introduce Avengers; Act II: They disagree; Act III They band together it would be a big problem.
Same with the Flinstones, while it uses tropes from sitcoms and the honeymooners it wrapped them up into something new, it's not like they had another prehistoric 60's parody around.

If Nintendo made a game that sort of felt like Zelda and carried the plot of say Metroid and looked like Mario one could argue and say yea sure it's formulaic and really doesn't bring anything new to the table, but it is a solid new game/series. Whereas with the current Nintendo franchises it's like oh look, it's formulaic and that's bad because we've seen the exact same thing before.
There is a big difference between following tropes and being a slightly off carbon copy.

PS: Just because a person makes videos for the internet doesn't suddenly make their word gold. Just because someone like Bob, Yahtzee, Jim, Extra Credits say something it doesn't mean you should follow it blindly nor expect to post their argument and have it suddenly be the end all be all of an argument. It could be a well rationalized argument but very few, if any, arguments are the final answer to a problem.

The irony of your opening statement amuses me to no end. Fantastic post script, by the way. Not only does it highlight a glaring assumption of authoritative opinion, but also projects that the view in question is some kind of all purpose fit, wherein the qualifiers of the argument tell you exactly when it fits, and yet my use of applying it to a parallel media with a set of titles that use formula as a way to present either a new mechanic, aesthetic, thematic feel or other such non-story related component of gaming somehow is the option within the qualifications that breaks the mold? Man, how did I not recognize that one? That with only slight variations in the story allows them to focus on characters, locations, combat, movement, and a new experience, but that doing so doesn't allow them to use a formula that works well, regardless of who created it, offering these minor tweaks as the points of interest rather than the formula itself?

You say it doesn't apply to video games, because video games are copying each other. And movies and television don't? So, western movies don't tend to follow one of a small few scripting ideas? Romcoms and Sitcoms don't have an arc where several people meet, at least two of them fall in love, they have a giant fight via some misunderstanding, then it's resolved to the benefit of most, with minor tweaks being things like location, circumstances of the misunderstanding, and whether or not they're writing letters to each other through time? Just because video games are younger, and their genesis is still fresh enough to be seen, doesn't exclude them from this argument. Formula is like concrete--it's not the reason you buy a house, but if it's broken, then you won't buy anyway.

 

[nonl33t m4st3r]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Bob. Good formulas allow the work to be focused in other areas.

On a side note, that pic of Fred's shocked face is one of the funniest pics I've seen of him.

 

[chetoos]

I just want to say that I love how you keep using stills from the movie Pleasantville when you're talking about sitcoms because of how that movie talked about them. It just straight up amuses me.

 

[kaneisback]

I wonder if bob will ever do a 'big picture' about cartoons like 'the centurions', 'M.A.S.K(Mobile Armored Strike Kommand)', 'Samurai jack', 'Darkwing duck', 'Tailspin' or even my old favorite, 'Swat Katz: the radical squadron', now thats an oddball one, it stopped because they thought it was too 'violent' in the 90s... oh wait, that explains it, the 90's sucked, damn you 90's for killing my favorite show after only 2 seasons, Megas XLR or Samurai jack is more violent than it was, thou it never killed as many people off camera as swat kats, i never counted though.

I know its a lot of different series and its a blend of good and bad, but im a old fan of all of them, dont know why though.

He has already done 'Bravestar', a more... unique-looking cartoon, i guess is the word and flintstones now, which i can understand. it was the most hardlived cartoon for a longtime, until another 'scrappy doo' character was introduced, or thats what i remember at least, Bob did do a video about this kind of thing. I have seen all of the ones ive mentioned, though never in the original language on tv, only dubs, which was a bit of a drag.

 

[Jegsimmons]

I dont hate the Flintstones, but they get tiring really fast.

And i do agree with Bob on how any old formula can work if you do it right in some unique any such as characters or new environment. (though why he choose a pic of Avatar to express anything positive confuses me, especially for the environment thing because it didnt do that well either while having complete shit characters and more plot holes than a block of swiss cheese at a gun show)

 

[Christer]

Honestly, I only watched the Flintstones because I'd watch any cartoon back when I was little. The jokes got old fast, and I was never very fond of the standard Hanna-Barbera techniques for limited animation. I don't know how many times I saw Fred's walking loop on top of that endless livingroom, with his head bobbing around on top of his collar

 

[MrBaskerville]

Stone Soup

MovieBob takes a good look at the Flintstones.

Watch Video

Moviebob, do you understand that more than one of your own reviews invoke the same reaction you describe at the begining of this video from a significant number of viewers? I'd suggest that you take a look at your status as a film critic - you know, the fact that you run a minor weekly webseries as the sum monument to your abilities. You're only in a position to be a hypocritic when making such statements about the work of others.

TL;DR - You actually are pretty bad at movie criticism, and should deflate your own ego a bit.

What i was thinking when viewing this, wasn´t that the entire point of his Artist review? Missing the point of everything and disregarding it for being shallow and formulaic? Not that people aren´t allowed to have their own opinions, just find it strange to hear this from Moviebob.

Though he might have a point, though i often have a problem with films being too formulaic. I know most movies are that way, but sometimes it just gets too obvious, for example when a movie goes through every cliche step by step.

 

[Phishfood]

I do think things can be TOO close to formula.

Avengers was formula + a cast we love.
Flintstones was formula + stone age humour.
Matrix was formula + bullet time + agents + other cool stuff.

Avatar was formula +....uh...3d blue cats or something.

I've watch the matrix loads of times, watched flintstones over and over. I have no desire to see avatar again.

Going to a food analogy, there is nothing wrong with making a burger to "Formula"

Bun, meat, sauce.

eddible, maybe even enjoyable, however if you go beyond the formula and go

Bun, meat, cheese, slice of pineapple

you get something a lot more enjoyable.