The Big Picture: Stuperior

[TheDrunkNinja]

To be honest, Bob, I think people hate One More Day not because it had changed the "status quo" but that it was a hackneyed attempt at getting back to the previous "status quo", i.e. that of Peter Parker being that stupid childish embodiment of high fantasy with zero commitment that solves all his problems like he's still a sixteen-year-old and has to keep relearning the "great power comes great responsibility" crap.

Pretty much, One More Day was seen as one big kick in the balls to any and all character development Peter had gone through in the last twenty years. It was definitive proof that, despite being a grown-ass man, writers will never stop seeing him as the stupid selfish teenager that makes stupid selfish choices that results in horrible things happening to the people he loves.

So yeah, it doesn't really have anything to do with the silliness of the devil asking for Peter's marriage. Not to me anyway.

That being said... having not read the Amazing Spider-man #700, I do agree with you, that does sound kinda cool. I have a soft spot for villains turning good, especially when it's done out of respect for a previous hero. It's why I loved the run on X-men when Magneto took over Xavier's school when he died out of respect for his former friend, teaching and upholding his ideals despite not agreeing with them... and it's also why I hate that writers decided to make it that he was plotting something all along.

Fucking writers...

 

[SAMAS]

People bitched about one more day because it retconned like 40 years worth of stories. It could have been the most intelligently written and unique story in the spiderman universe, but it still retconned 40 years worth of story.

And the reason people don't like this is because it's such a massive upset to the status-quo. I agree it sounds interesting on paper, but I don't really like Doc Oc. And to have him be the one that kills him is pretty annoying. And in such a cheap way.

But yea, give it like a year and they'll say his consciousness overwrote Octavious'.

No, people rage about One More Day because it was Joe Quesada resolving his own Mid-Life Crisis by Selling Spiderman's Marriage to the Devil. Hell, even without the whole Aunt May thing(and seriously, what would she think about all that anyway?), I would have to call Outside Influence (like what happened to Harry Dresden in Changes) to make that even remotely make sense.

Regarding this, My real problem with it is the timing. It's still IMO too soon after the death of Ultimate Peter Parker (which I had no problem with) to be killing off 616 Pete, even as the usual temporary thing, and especially so after the awesome Spider-Men crossover they just did. And combined with the immigration of Agent Coulson from the Cinematic universe and introducing an Ultimate/Cinematic-based Black Fury(as original Fury's son), makes the whole thing come off as a bad indication of some serious creative stagnation back at Marvel HQ.

But aside from that, a very well-thought argument by Bob.

 

[DeimosMasque]

Wow, Bob is the first person I've heard talk about Superior Spider-Man in a considered way, and not just as some whinging fanboy.

Thank you Bob.

And thank you for having actually read Slott's (excellent) run on ASM, I wish other people would.

Agreed!

I came here expecting the same sort of fanboy rage I've seen all over the internet. To the point of someone Photoshopping a picture of Stan Lee shredding ASM 700 and distributing it as fact.

And the one thing that they all had in common was... they didn't read it. They didn't read the lead up to story. Hell alot of them don't even read comics at all and just love Spider-Man from the movies and the 90s Animated Series (really!? At least love him for Spectacular Spider-Man instead of the 90s garbage)

I was actually ready to rip Bob a new one for not being a Spider-Man reader and reacting poorly just because a character you don't contribute sales of was changed without his permission. And I apologize to Bob for that being my reaction before I watched the video, because like the video even says... that's the way the entire Internet is reacting. I just expected more of the same.

Me personally... I've been reading Spidey on and off over the last 22 years and right around the time of Brand New Day I got hard core back into him and have been reading religiously ever since. My wife has as well. Heck I just finished reading Superior Spider-Man #1 and it's really good and continues the impression that Dan Slott is just going "Yup, I'm just trying this idea out and then we got back to normal."

He begged comic fans to give it a good three issue chance before judging it. And knowing the internet... it didn't even wait till 700 was even out before outraging over it.

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

People are really pitching a fit over this? It sounds interesting to me. Do you think it's just fanboys holding One More Day over the writer?

I didn't know One more day and Superior 700 whatever was written by the same people, and to be honest, I still thought it was shit, mainly in the way that body swapping is so silver age it makes me want to cry and that Doc Ock essentially just magically turns into a good guy. Also, they already killed spiderman last year, leave the poor bastard alone. Kill iron man or something, I dunno.

 

[anonymity88]

Yeah I don't read comic books, but I bet this won't last long before they do the whole mental battle for control thing, Peter will win, and BAM, Peter Parker will be Spider-Man again. Either that or they'll contrive some other way to bring Peter back.

Thats why i dont get why the fans are being pissy. If it sucks they can retcon it and if it doesnt they can run with it.

Oh, also...

EDIT: You know what? I bet this is simply a case of "They changed it now it sucks. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks]"

Thats how you do it.

I have to leave to go to work and you just linked me to TV Tropes. You owe me a new job! D:

 

[MovieBob]

Heh. So, the debut issue "Superior Spider-Man" is on shelves now. And while I'm not generally one to say, well...

BIG SPOILER WARNING!

Spoiler

...told ya so

Like I said in the episode, I figured that "Surprise! Peter Parker is still in there and they're gonna fight over possession of the Peter/Spidey body!" would be the way they EVENTUALLY got Peter back into the book... it turns out "eventually" translates to "IMMEDIATELY - like, in the very first issue." Revealed in the final moments of Superior #1: Peter's consciousness/soul/whatever is still "around," has some level of influence over his physical body and is essentially "haunting" Ock-as-Spidey - trying to curb his villainy (surprising no one, Octavius' interpretation of "heroism" leaves something to be desired) and find a way to resume control.

Which basically garauntees that the whole "End of Amazing Spider-Man!/Launch of Superior!" thing was basically a 90s-style "New #1!!!" sales stunt, that Peter will "be" Spider-Man again (probably in time for the next movie) and that the title will almost-certainly revert to it's original name/numbering (probably on a nice round number like 800) again, leaving "Superior" to effectively become a "that time I was a ghost and fought Doc Ock for control of my own body" mini-series of Amazing in the "history" of the series. Which, apart from the ghost thing, you kinda had to figure was the case all along.

 

[Callate]

Anyone else a little leery about a critic regularly telling the audience that they should stop complaining about things?

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Anyone else a little leery about a critic regularly telling the audience that they should stop complaining about things?

Well, I think a critic is allowed to say that something isn't worth complaining about. They should know; after all, it's practically their job to complain about things.

OT: A lot of people are talking about the rape-by-fraud thing. While I think it takes a good eye to pick up on that, I don't really think it's an issue. Marvel just has to have Ock keep his waldos in his pants. Problem solved (no-one really wants to see Otto's waldos anyway).

I'm only bringing it up because some posters were going off at the writers for "letting rape into their comic." That's a bit silly. Firstly, I don't think the writers predicted any outrage based on what they would have assumed is a standard Freaky Friday plot that the comics industry has done approximately sixteen thousand times before. Secondly, almost all Freaky Friday plots or any plot where A impersonates B would have the exact same potential for rape-by-fraud so there's nothing especially offensive or callous about this instance.

If Otto actually does put his waldo where he shouldn't, then we've got something to raise a fuss about. Until then, everyone can put down the pitchforks.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm with Bob, Doc Ock as the new "Superior" Spider-man, is kinda interesting.

Not only that, but even if it does suck eggs, he's also right in that there's an easy undo here.

 

[Gatx]

I thought it was dumb before, but the extra detail that Peter Parker sort of gives his "consent" by giving Doc Ock makes it less "WTF" that he's going to replace him as Spider-man.

 

[wild0061]

Anyone else a little leery about a critic regularly telling the audience that they should stop complaining about things?

Its getting more and more common, with media in general, in the end it really just hurts the industry that has the complaints, think about it if Coke brought out a new 'crap flavoured' variety to phase out the one everyone likes, they would/should appreciate feedback in the form of complaints that nobody likes it, so they can fix it and make something better (or stick with what works), shouting down criticism and telling people to stop complaining prevents the companies from getting honest feedback.

STILL, every argument I see of people going "fans shouldn't be upset" involves two, basic arguments:

1) There's been worse.

2) It'll blow over.

Using the coke example, 'hey there are worse tasting drinks out there, stop complaining! it only mildly tastes of crap', or 'they'll change it back eventually, so shut up and drink your poo flavoured coke'. Doest really help anyone, in fact if people stop complaining, suck it up and keep buying it, even if they don't like it, they'll just keep doing what they're doing, and you get horrible coke flavour forever lol.

In short, complaining is good, obviously going ape-shit over minor things is a bit much, but if they don't know they cant fix it. This age of 'instant outrage' is a good thing, they can adjust a lot quicker and in the end we theoretically should get better products quicker, and have to put up with crap less.

 

[leviadragon99]

Huh... have to say, I don't understand the uproar either, it does sound like a temporary thing that could turn out pretty interesting if done well.

Temporary in comics useually means a year minimum.
Ben Riley lasted a few years

Yeah, and that's what, one issue a month? Can people really not deal with that for 12 issues of one Spidey incarnation?

 

[Mrsoupcup]

I was told Peter fucked his Aunt, please tell me that was just a myth.

 

[wild0061]

Huh... have to say, I don't understand the uproar either, it does sound like a temporary thing that could turn out pretty interesting if done well.

Temporary in comics useually means a year minimum.
Ben Riley lasted a few years

Yeah, and that's what, one issue a month? Can people really not deal with that for 12 issues of one Spidey incarnation?

Can they 'deal with that'? why should anyone have to deal with anything they don't like that they're paying for? your making this seem like its a 'eat your veggies, its good for you' sort of deal lol. It's a business, they are charging for every issue, its not some free community service lol, if there are people out there that don't like it, they have every right to complain (and potentially not buy any of the new issues), to be fair Marvel have every right to ignore this, but really, they are in business to sell comics, if that means listening to people that they don't like what they're doing, and changing it to make them happy so they'll see more $$$ then its a win win.

 

[The Deadpool]

Heh. So, the debut issue "Superior Spider-Man" is on shelves now. And while I'm not generally one to say, well...

BIG SPOILER WARNING!

Spoiler

...told ya so

Like I said in the episode, I figured that "Surprise! Peter Parker is still in there and they're gonna fight over possession of the Peter/Spidey body!" would be the way they EVENTUALLY got Peter back into the book... it turns out "eventually" translates to "IMMEDIATELY - like, in the very first issue." Revealed in the final moments of Superior #1: Peter's consciousness/soul/whatever is still "around," has some level of influence over his physical body and is essentially "haunting" Ock-as-Spidey - trying to curb his villainy (surprising no one, Octavius' interpretation of "heroism" leaves something to be desired) and find a way to resume control.

Which basically garauntees that the whole "End of Amazing Spider-Man!/Launch of Superior!" thing was basically a 90s-style "New #1!!!" sales stunt, that Peter will "be" Spider-Man again (probably in time for the next movie) and that the title will almost-certainly revert to it's original name/numbering (probably on a nice round number like 800) again, leaving "Superior" to effectively become a "that time I was a ghost and fought Doc Ock for control of my own body" mini-series of Amazing in the "history" of the series. Which, apart from the ghost thing, you kinda had to figure was the case all along.

And that makes this a good thing... How?

this is the part that I don't grasp. Yes, it's self evident that this is temporary, yes there have been worse stories, but how does this make THIS a good story? Why should someone who thinks this sucks NOT complain about it?

People aren't complaining THAT there is a new status quo, people are complaining WHAT the new status quo IS. They think it's stupid.

Personally, I don't care. I just never understand why people keep claiming that fans shouldn't complain about things they think sucks just because... Why exactly?

How is their rage over this any less justified than your rage over Transformers?

 

[The Deadpool]

I was told Peter fucked his Aunt, please tell me that was just a myth.

Yes and no. When inside Ock's body, he gained all of Ock's memories. Including Ock having sex with Aunt May.

So no, he never did it, but he has first person recollection of the act.

 

[The Deadpool]

If Otto actually does put his waldo where he shouldn't, then we've got something to raise a fuss about. Until then, everyone can put down the pitchforks.

I have to agree with this. People do seem to be condemning this story for things it HASN'T done yet, but MIGHT. That seems excessive.

 

[Matthewmagic]

so im not going to comment on the whole doc oc thing but those dvd box sets what are theyt called and where can i buy them?