The Big Picture: The Fall of Kevin Smith, Part II

[ShadowHamster]

Honestly, I will start this thread out by saying I liked Red State. I did not consider it a horror movie, but simply raw honest commentary taking things to another level of ridiculousness. Everyone compares it to Westboro, but I think it is talking about crazy religious guys from across the board. It's definitely got a little to say about Waco, it has elements of many "cult" groups from the last 40 years. It's another comment on religion, while also being a comment on social programming, and government workings and interventions.

If anything is scary about Red State, it's how incredibly bad it goes for anyone not in a power position. Only the powerful got what they wanted, with the cult leader getting to go out in a ridiculous blaze of glory and the government agents shutting everything down. Everyone else needs to die to show what happens to those stuck in the crossover, for which the movie is really about. It's a clumsy movie, and I wouldn't give it 4 stars, but I would give it about 2 1/2 and I've seen so many worse movies. I truly believe it gets more flack for being from Kevin Smith.

And that is my larger problem, I've never thought of Kevin Smith as someone garnering for an Emmy, and I've never found any of his movies to an award winning quality. The clunkiness of red state exists in Dogma, Chasing Amy, and even the original Clerks, and since those are his 3 biggest movies, I've never understood the vehemence. It seems like some people throw too much into his gauntlet, at which point I want to be like "well why don't YOU go make a fucking movie!"

Some people take the Kevin Smith thing too far, and his worse movies are still not the schlock someone like M. Knight Shamalamadingdong tosses at us.

 

[Gerardo Vazquez]

I rewatched Iron Man 2 the other day. It's much better than people say. As for Kevin Smith, you should reduce these videos into one "I just don't like this guy because we're incredibly similar but he made a career where I didn't".

I've seen this "You're just jealous of Kevin Smith's success" accusation thrown at Bob a lot over the course of this retrospective and I just don't see it.

 

[walsfeo]

I've always wanted to really like Kevin Smith, it's what all the cool kids did. Well, maybe not the cool kids, but the ones deep into film. And then came DOGMA, and I was like "F-YEAH!". That movie rocked on many levels, one of which was probably related to my lapsed Catholicism.

What gets me though is how revered he is. I don't hate me man, but I don't understand why folks hold him in such high regard. But I guess fandom benefits/suffers from taste makers, and he's better than some. While he's not a good ambassador for geekdom, he is one of us and I'm alright with that.


Other than DOGMA I've found nothing to love in his filmography but wish him well. As long as I don't have to watch his stuff.

 

[DiMono]

Mallrats was basically pitched as "Clerks in a mall." Then it was marketed incredibly poorly. Personally, I really like the movie, flaws and all.

As for the upcoming part 3, I don't know what Bob's planning to say, but I'm of the opinion that Clerks 2 is actually far superior to the original Clerks. I think the original gets a lot of fond retrospect thrown at it, but the dialogue is more forced, the plot isn't as interesting, and the characters aren't as well defined. Clerks is more a bunch of random scenes thrown together, and Clerks 2 is more of a cohesive story. I think it's the better movie.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

so this isn't the Fall of Kevin Smith but Moviebob putting his hopes and dreams on a normal guy.... So its the Fall of Moviebob?

It's more of a jilted lover's tale than anything actually to do with Kevin Smith. I just hope Bob doesn't start writing Kevin Smith fanfic and stalking him.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

Shoot, I was waiting for the axe to fall in this one, but it's been put off for another week. I'm a pretty big Kevin Smith fan and listen to multiple podcasts on a daily basis... but I'm not 100% in love with all of his movies. As good as they were, they don't really age all that well because they come from a very specific state of mind, like a funny conversation you had years ago. That's why I love the podcasts. They just keep that conversation going and can be much much funnier and looser without the pretense of having a consistent plot or fictional characters. His movies just remind me of the Ramones - an original unique perspective and style that were frequently betrayed in pursuit of pop success that they never achieved.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I didn't realize that some of those movies were the work of Kevin Smith. I haven't seen them and I still never really cared about Kevin Smith, but there ya go.

 

[Zen Bard]

Smith himself has stated many times that he can only really write dialogue and dialogue is what he excels at, Smiths talky talk movies are by far his best.

I finally realized this when I saw "Dogma". It had some great concepts, ideas and Salma Hayek as a stripper/angel.

But about a third of the way into it, I noticed the same sequence occurring in every scene; a) something happens, b) it leads to an outrageous outcome and c) two characters launch into expository dialogue explaining what just happened, why it worked and how it moves the plot forward.

Once I saw the pattern, I couldn't shake it and it just killed the movie for me. Not even the special guest cameo by "God" (you oughtta know...)could save it.

 

[Shjade]

As for Kevin Smith, you should reduce these videos into one "I just don't like this guy because we're incredibly similar but he made a career where I didn't".

If that were his argument, I'm sure that's what he'd do. Since that hasn't really come up, though - if you've actually listened to the videos you might have noticed the inclusion of various critical and social views on Smith's work and their general context to explain why they were received the way they were - this sounds like you're taking things more personally than Bob is, which is pretty funny, really.

 

[Furbyz]

Honestly, I will start this thread out by saying I liked Red State. I did not consider it a horror movie, but simply raw honest commentary taking things to another level of ridiculousness. Everyone compares it to Westboro, but I think it is talking about crazy religious guys from across the board. It's definitely got a little to say about Waco, it has elements of many "cult" groups from the last 40 years. It's another comment on religion, while also being a comment on social programming, and government workings and interventions.

If anything is scary about Red State, it's how incredibly bad it goes for anyone not in a power position. Only the powerful got what they wanted, with the cult leader getting to go out in a ridiculous blaze of glory and the government agents shutting everything down. Everyone else needs to die to show what happens to those stuck in the crossover, for which the movie is really about. It's a clumsy movie, and I wouldn't give it 4 stars, but I would give it about 2 1/2 and I've seen so many worse movies. I truly believe it gets more flack for being from Kevin Smith.

And that is my larger problem, I've never thought of Kevin Smith as someone garnering for an Emmy, and I've never found any of his movies to an award winning quality. The clunkiness of red state exists in Dogma, Chasing Amy, and even the original Clerks, and since those are his 3 biggest movies, I've never understood the vehemence. It seems like some people throw too much into his gauntlet, at which point I want to be like "well why don't YOU go make a fucking movie!"

Some people take the Kevin Smith thing too far, and his worse movies are still not the schlock someone like M. Knight Shamalamadingdong tosses at us.

Honestly, I never got how Red State could be so polarizing. There are more than a few people who think it's Smith's best work. I hear the complaint that it was schizophrenic and had no structure often, but whether or not you like it, that is exactly what he was trying to do. Break from formula.

While I agree that it was more indicative of insane religious zealotry in general, the WBC were the inspiration behind the group in the film. They also picketed it constantly while it was on tour, calling him the "F** Enabler Kevin Smith" which was eventually downgraded to "The Pervert Kevin Smith" because he liked it too much.

I for one might be biased because at one time I actually would have been considered a religious crazy, but I liked Red State because the sermons/things Michael Parks said were frightfully similar to what I used to hear in church on a regular basis with only a tiny twist of hatred and warped dogma.

 

[BoomingEchoes]

Shoot, I was waiting for the axe to fall in this one, but it's been put off for another week. I'm a pretty big Kevin Smith fan and listen to multiple podcasts on a daily basis... but I'm not 100% in love with all of his movies. As good as they were, they don't really age all that well because they come from a very specific state of mind, like a funny conversation you had years ago. That's why I love the podcasts. They just keep that conversation going and can be much much funnier and looser without the pretense of having a consistent plot or fictional characters. His movies just remind me of the Ramones - an original unique perspective and style that were frequently betrayed in pursuit of pop success that they never achieved.

Wow, I would have said the exact same thing, even up to the Ramones part. But my spin on the Ramones part isn't that they never achieved pop success, as much as they became the godfathers of things to come. The Ramones got everyone interested to give up being afraid and take whatever little bit they knew and get into the garage and make music, which is the exact same thing Kevin did with Clerks and the exact same reason why people like Judd Apatow are able to make the movies they make today (both Apatow and Smith have said as much), that people seem to enjoy so much. They're the chemical base that starts things, they may not be as sweet as the end result, but they're necessary to get the reaction started.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

If that were his argument, I'm sure that's what he'd do. Since that hasn't really come up, though - if you've actually listened to the videos you might have noticed the inclusion of various critical and social views on Smith's work and their general context to explain why they were received the way they were...

But that doesn't explain anything about Bob's seemingly personal intense dislike for Smith.

So, he claims the critics/fans built Smith up into some sort of Messiah figure. I don't agree, but I'll accept the premise for the sake of argument. But what does that have to do with Bob? Can't he just ignore what the critics/fans say and form his own opinion independently?

We're not seeing anything really direct in this series so far that connect with how Bob personally feel - it's all been reflected through third-parties. So, I really don't get what he's trying to say.

 

[DerpHerpilous]

The problem I've seen with all Kevin Smith movies is that none of them hold up at all. I remember watching Clerks, Mallrats, Chasing Amy and Dogma many years ago and liking them for the most part. But I've seen a couple of them lately and I couldn't even sit through the whole thing.

Maybe it's just that you have to be in a very narrow demographic to appreciate them, and now that I'm older I just don't think like that anymore. Maybe I grew up while Kevin Smith stayed the same relatively immature guy.

I have a sneaking suspicion that this is what Bob is struggling with; his tastes and thinking about movies had grown since that point, while Smith's movie making barely changed if at all.

 

[Baresark]

It sounds to me like Bob is saying that he is like most film makers, he has a history of good and bad movies under he belt. I have enjoyed most of his movies, to be honest. None of them are explicitly bad.

I have not seen Red State, but it seems to have riled a bunch of people up, which I don't really understand. It's definitely outside what Kevin Smith normally does.

 

[lastjustice]

My thoughts are, who beside Moviebob thought Kevin Smith was the chosen one?(I've seriously never once heard another human being verbalize that idea.) I mean who was so invested in him that they felt let down by him or betrayed? This like someone feeling betrayed about Tiger Woods cheating on his wife. They're just people, they have made no campaign promise be anything more than that. I'm not sure what you were expecting from him. Everyone kills their heroes sooner or later, I guess Bob just wants kill his heroes publicly.

This like the episode of American Dad , My Morning Strait Jacket, Stan becomes crazy with My morning Jacket, and follows them everywhere. He somehow feels like the music transcended beyond just being music, and is some sort of message to world....and when he confronts the lead singer...that's not the case. A guy just wrote songs, and hoped they made people happy. You want some greater meaning to your life, you have find it with in, as no one else is ever going give it to you. Whatever that is, it's up to you. You are the special if you want to be heh.

I think Kevin Smith is a cool guy, and I think bob's angst against Smith continues simply reflect on himself, not Smith. Even if the guy made a film people don't like...so what? Being universally liked is not required be happy. Michael bay made plenty of stuff critics hate, he seems be able get out bed in the morning just fine. I still don't see how Kevin Smith is remotely close to becoming the Darth Vader of Cinema.

 

[Storm Dragon]

Part 3: liberate tute me ex inferis

"Liberate me from hell"?

...

Spoiler

Anyway...

Dogma is the only one of his movies I've seen, but I really liked it. I'll have to check out some of his other stuff.

 

[darthdenim]

Yeah. I did get the feeling that Bob mentioned Kevin Smith in the Earth To Echo review specifically because he wanted to make these videos about him.

Then he tries to play it off, like he's only doing it because we asked him about it.

 

[CharlesA]

This whole thing about Smith sounds more like personal vendetta than anything else. I loved most of his earlier stuff and both Clerks 2 and Zack and Miri were both good films, haven't seen the "bad ones" but I don't really get why this thing spends three episodes to justify bashing on a guy who basically made more good movies than 95% of Hollywood directors. Is it because he told movie critics to piss off?

I don't know, it's true he's gotten into a weird wormhole of self promotion with the Smodcast stuff, but at the end of the day, I get it. Why try to please all the critics who shit on him all the time instead of servicing his fan base and living off it?

I'm much more interested in Bob's perception and evolution as a critic. I like most of his stuff, whether I agree or not, but this seems like a lot of buildup to justify what seemed like gratuitous celebrity bashing that's been in his videos for a while.

EDIT: I do enjoy Bob's videos a lot, I just wish he stopped using "we" and "us" and speak from the heart, use "I" and "me" instead, that would make those videos a lot more palatable. It's mush more easier to empathize with someone who does not try to speak for everyone.