The Big Picture: The Lone Ranger: What Happened?

[mrblakemiller]

The fact that you couldn't explain why mrblakemiller was wrong and instead posted a clip from Sesame Street shows that you Pink Apocalypse are the one who is incapable of understanding why white guilt is not an acceptable reason to make white characters into non-white characters.

What should I explain to you?

-snip-

Well, if you aren't going to explain, most of us on this site will just dismiss you.

I believe in white privilege. I believe in racism. I think it's okay, from an artistic standpoint, for a black actor to play a character that was previously white.

I also believe it's okay for a white actor to play a character that was previously written as black, or any other race. Heck, I'd be perfectly okay with a Native-American actor playing a character that is SUPPOSED to be white, as well as the inverse. Because it's acting, and there's no reason to say, "You can pretend to be from a different time, speaking a different language, or even an alien from another planet, but you can't pretend to be of a different race."

If you want to argue that with me, I'm game. Sounds like fun, and I see no reason not to have a civil and sensitive discussion about it.

Question for potential discussion: Patrick Stewart played the lead in a racially-inverted performance of Othello. I'm not sure if they kept the language of calling him a "moor," but if they did, it would be an entire play of similar performances (in dealing with this issue) as Depp in Lone Ranger. Is this okay?

Oh, and anyone else is welcome, natch, to get in on a discussion.

 

[PH3NOmenon]

I'd like to firmly declare myself of being completely fed up with the "THAT'S RACIST!" arguments in movie roles. Laughing at stereotypes really should not be this big of a deal. I wish we could collectively get over ourselves and just laugh at how silly stereotypes can be. Sure, I might balk a bit at a race-swapped character I have firmly pictured in my head but tht balking doesn't stem from "RACE XX IS GETTING SHAFTED AND MISPORTRAYED!", it stems from "This does not adhere to my own personal vision of the character in the original work!"


Not the point of this big picture, I know. But that reply to the above also applies to the video; I'd be far more interested in hearing the multiple hiccups the movie went through rather than "Depp made idiot calls, silly people let him make said calls and him playing Tonto is racist."


Ah well.

 

[bjj hero]

Thinking about it; I dont actually know anyone who likes Westerns. It would always tank in the UK.

 

[Lono Shrugged]

How to make a modern day western: See firefly and/or serenity.

Or any of the amazing westerns or western style movie released in the last ten years...

No Country for Old men, Deadwood, Assassination of Jesse James, The Good The Bad and the Weird, The Proposition, Seraphim Falls, True Grit, Django Unchained. Hell even Rango was a great western. And that's the same guys who made this. I could go on and on. That's off the top of my head.

And yes, Firefly and Serenity deserves a mention.

 

[Evil Smurf]

Hey Bob, your Boston is showing.

 

[Brockyman]

Of course we have to drag race into EVERY FUCKING THING ON EARTH..... geez

 

[Stomperchomper]

So I feel like the only one around who actually liked the movie...

(Yes, I know, I'm never the ONLY one)

 

[lacktheknack]

Say Bob. The Lone Ranger is Summer 2013's biggest flop. But didn't The Lone Ranger open at No.2 in the Box Office and has made over $100 million? And then there's that Robot movie which opened at No.3 and has yet to make $100 million. I'm not saying anything Bob. Just making an observation.

After one weekend, Pacific Rim has made back half its budget, meaning it has the rest of its running life to make another $95M.

After two weekends, The Lone Ranger has made back half its budget, meaning it has the rest of its running life to make another $95M.

Ergo, The Lone Ranger is a bigger flop than Pacific Rim, as a second weekend can do wonders.

 

[PunkRex]

Why you rip on my favourite film? Im fairly sure the real Samurai didn't go out quite as spectacularly but its still a good battle and the message seemed legit. I know the term Samurai mean't alot of things in Japan back in the day and they didn't all go on about honour and duty but I don't see how it's offensive.

I'm in a very tiny minority here, but I did find the last samurai offensive on a level. Not racially offensive, heck it was wildly popular in Japan, but I do find it sort of intellectually offensive.

Firstly, it completely subordinates the entire point of the events it is depicting. There was actually a rebellion against the Meiji government whose leader (Saigo Takamori) was the basis for Ken Watanabe's character.

The thing is, what they were actually fighting for was the retention of the enormous social privileges which were being taken away from the samurai class in favor of a more meritocratic society. Being a samurai was not a profession anyone could pick up, it was a birthright, and these people were fighting because they believed that that birthright should make them socially superior to other people.

The whole "life in every breath" thing is also just weird, not just in that it's absolutely meaningless but also in that it's actually the opposite of how samurai at the time tended to describe Bushido. Samurai seem to have been relentlessly obsessed with death. The "philosophy" of the samurai is all about treating life with detachment and being ready to sacrifice yourself if required.

But what's really dody about this is that this kind of misrepresentation (i.e. "anyone can be a samurai", "bushido is a part of Japan's national character", etc) is that it was a huge component in the ideology of Japanese militarism. It has absolutely nothing to do with what real samurai actually believed, but it does have an awful lot to do with what the people who pushed Japan into World War 2 believed, with massive and terrible consequences for just about everyone involved. The film is referencing that pretty much directly.

Now, I'm not saying that The Last Samurai promotes militarism (and regardless, I'd be a massive hypocrite if I said that I could never enjoy films or books which are supportive of militarism) but it's still directly referencing that era and the way that era sought to rewrite history.

Now, the real issue for me is not about that. Heck, the actual ideas behind the film are so meaningless that it doesn't really promote anything except that Japan is cool. It's really just about selling the really stereotypical imagery of "traditional" Japanese culture (inner peace, cherry blossom, submissive women) as something good and wholesome and which you can be part of irrespective of who you are, and that's.. a bit offensive in just how shallow it is.

As I said, I get its romantisised out the wozzoo but there's so much I just dig about it. The whole redemption thing has been done to death but the story seemed more focused on the Samurai than Tom Cruise, the imagry was nice along with the music, the fight/battle scenes were amazing and harsh (I love the shot that pans over the final battle showing the scale of it), the acting's good (love Watanabe), I just love the crap out of it.

I heard it was actually based on the story of a Welsh guy so it was kinda lame of Hollywood to put a bloody American in the leading role but it didn't stop the film from being the one time I liked Tom Cruise.

Still, you have a point. I'm a fairly simple guy anyway, my movies can be too /)^3^(\

 

[Boogie Knight]

I'd be more inclined to give MovieBob more grief about his complaints of racebending in the casting if I didn't think that there are certain roles which are only given to lily white actors. How many romantic comedies (made in Hollywood, no cheating with foreign films) can you count in which both leads were not very, very white? The few times in which this is not the case, the movie has to make a big deal about it like it's two different species getting together.

Personally, I'd rather that race was a non-issue in casting for all movies aside from one franchise. Bond movies I do think should make a point of a very diverse cast of Bond girls which include sexy women of all colors, creeds, ethnicities, etcetera. Yes, I am a pig and there is nothing you can do to stop me.

 

[Redd the Sock]

I suppose it's too simple to consider that people have just gotten tired of Jonny Depp's kookyness. I mean, it's not like Erol Flynn swashbuckling adventure was in demand when PotC came out. That film made it popular for a time and this could have done the same for westerns. It's just that Depp hasn't evolved much since then; mugging the same persona in movie after movie to the point we're all wondering why they think pirates 5 will be a breath of fresh air.

The problem with finance types (and I am one so I know) is an unwillingness to admit the formula changes very quickly. Doing what was successful once may succeed again, but with less impact over time until something flops. They banked on who they thought was a "do no wrong" actor in a property that really only exists as an historical remnant, only known for the 1812 overture, hi ho silver, and the name Tonto to be used as a stereotyped slur against natives. The only thing to take away is that Depp isn't the draw he once was, and he should join Mike Meyers wherever he goes between Shrek movies.

I mean, I'm not a fan of even the concept of the doofus slowly becoming the hero, but it really should have worked for the rest of the country.

 

[deadpool.forever]

I find I trust Bob less and less.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I heard it was actually based on the story of a Welsh guy so it was kinda lame of Hollywood to put a bloody American in the leading role but it didn't stop the film from being the one time I liked Tom Cruise.

My impression (shared by wikipedia apparently) was that his character is largely based on French artillery officer Jules Brunet [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Brunet]. Seriously, you thought a film with a Welsh dude was never going to get made.

The big samurai charge thing at the end is (I believe) based on a painting [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Land_And_Naval_Battle_of_Hakodate.JPG] of the Battle of Hakodate which shows the Republican troops in traditional samurai clothes fighting with swords and spears. It almost certainly didn't happen, but it's a nice image and it's at least authentic in the sense that the mythology behind it is Japanese in origin, I suspect quite unlike the Native American banzai rush!

 

[anthony87]

Why would Bob put a picture of Amazing Spider-Man up while mentioning terrible films?

Must've been an editing mistake.

 

[daxterx2005]

So what you're saying is this is like Disney's other failure about that martian dude?
Disney is going to stop trying to be "original" if their movies keep flopping >.>

 

[immortalfrieza]

Furthermore, his portray is racist. Based on stereotypes and caricature.

Tonto is and always has been nothing but a walking bunch of Native American stereotypes and caricature from day 1, over anything else he is in LR you can't hold actually accurately being like the character he's acting as against Depp.

Snip

Same here. I am so sick and tired of hearing everybody whine "THAT'S RACIST/SEXIST!!!" about fictional [read:NOT REAL!!!] situations all the damn time whether it's there or not (and if it's not, they'll outright make it up if they have to so they can keep whining about it). Newsflash! Racism/Sexism complainers, if you have enough time to spare to be up in arms about something as insignificant as whether a fictional character was cast as a [Insert Race/Sex here] instead of a [Insert Race/Sex here] instead of using that time to be rallying against any REAL cases of Racism/Sexism that actually affect people daily lives, you've pretty much already won the fight, at best you're fighting a battle that your side has all but won already.

I think the thing that pisses me off about this the most is the fact this kind of irrelevant crap that sensible people shouldn't care less about dominates media attention and any REAL issues of Racism/Sexism end up getting drowned out as a result, and as a result of that many of those issues don't get the attention they need for something to actually be done about them.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Why would Bob put a picture of Amazing Spider-Man up while mentioning terrible films?

Must've been an editing mistake.

Nah, it's just the same old same old confirmation bias hate that Bob has always had for ASM. Bob decided he was going to hate ASM before he ever walked in to see it, so it could have been the best movie in the history of cinema (which it isn't, but it's up there) and he would have still walked out hating it as one of the worst movies ever. I see the same kind of bias here with Lone Ranger too, I just hope he isn't going to whine about Lone Ranger every chance he gets for a year straight too.