The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[Andy of Comix Inc]

I usually agree with you Bob. But if you think a good step towards equality is to draw the line deeper and cement it in (like what feminism does whether it likes it or not), then you're WROONG.

Also, stop saying "heterosexual" like it's an insult. I'm bi and basically aim to straddle as many gender and sex identity lines as possible, but as if anything would change if it was a "gay" boss? This is why people always feel like they're being picked on when feminism and sexism is bought up - usually because they are. And it's not a good way to handle these problems. I can't come up with anything better, sure, but something is not better than nothing.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

So novelists who get advances on their novels are scamming, too?

She's a novelist now?

So that they can eat/live/do stuff with their life while they work on their project?

Did she make it perfectly clear that part of the money would be used to pay for her living expenses?

Academic research takes time and money

I don't remember paying 160k the last time I bought a book.

and if you've actually bothered to look into things she's going to be doing stuff with the $152k she DIDNT ask for that might be worth the money.

If she din't need the excess money she could've either given it back or donated it to a charity. So far, she has done neither of those things. She does not need 160k to make a six part video series, in fact she didn't even need 6k.

But no, it actually was sexist misogynistic pigs who tried shutting her down before they'd even heard her arguments.

I'm guessing you didn't bother looking into this issue besides reading the Escapist' and Kotaku's articles on the matter.

Caveat emptor. If you don't like her videos, then don't watch them. You don't have to be tactless and crass to make your point.

You're either missing the point or being purposefully obtuse.

Also some people like her videos and wanted to donate.

And that somehow doesn't make this a scam how?

Wow, you could make a living selling to farms with all the straw you've got there.

(And I've looked into it a lot more than you have, as is evident by the fact that you don't know that she's said that she's looking into stuff to actually do with the $152k that she *didn't ask for*, whether it's charity or setting up education or just turning FeministFrequency into her full time job instead of doing it on the side while freelancing.

And no, you didn't pay $160k. I didn't pay Sarkeesian $160k either. I just paid $25. And what, pray tell, is the difference between a novelist getting a $6k advance on her fee so that she can live while she writes, and a videomaker getting the same thing?

May I assume that you will now be raging at writer Seth Godin for asking for $40k and getting over $200k [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/297519465/the-icarus-deception-why-make-art-new-from-seth-go] to... write his next book? I mean, that's a scam, isn't it? Plenty of people write stuff on the internet for free.

No? You're not going to rage at him?

Oh, it's because he's not a woman criticizing your little male-dominated bubble. Got it.

 

[Kiss my Axe]

I dont like her videos. She rubs me the wrong way in her kickstarter vid & her past videos. While this issue needs talked about, it should be talked about by someone else. Primarily anyone that's not going to arrogantly eye-roll their way through the video. Someone thats not going to feel as antagonistic about the matter. Frankly she should not have gotten this much publicity for being trolled. Its something that happens daily & something she combats in the comments of her videos already. Something seems odd that journalists just jumped to this as if it were something out of the ordinary. As for her qualification? well i think any qualification she MAY have had goes out the window with the fact she released a bayonetta video and flat out lied that molestation rates in the USA were at peak levels. FBI reports are showing a drop. Not to mention women only trains wont do fuck all to our rates because public transit is not big enough in the US & few of our sexual crimes take place in public, with only 7% taking place in vehicles. Its like this person is talking out of her ass. Still high rates but by no means peak, in fact we are at least 60% under our peak rates of sexual violence. So comparing east & west as similar on social levels & misrepresenting legal statistics. Good for her.

Now if you will excuse me, i have to take a vacation to this 'youtube comments' location. A mighty doom indeed. Should it fail to kill me, Bob had best be doing that Jabberjaw episode next week.

 

[Belated]

Mai Shiranui looking like she does is awesome. EVERYONE looking like she does is stupid.

And in two sentences (or one, depending on how you choose to transcribe it) Moviebob manages to state what usually takes me several paragraphs.

There is nothing wrong with sexy characters in and of themselves. Sexuality is natural, and fantasies are natural to have. The problem isn't in the existence of the characters, the problem is in the VOLUME of them. Cute bodies are only an issue because games act as if ALL women need to have cute bodies. I'm not against developing some strong female leads wearing full not-revealing-at-all combat gear. And I'm not against females having figures like Mario. I'm just against absolutely getting rid of the females built like supermodels, because that would be a breach on free speech, and a little bit of fantasizing is healthy. "Sexy" is not sexist by itself. "Sexy" is only sexist when it becomes the only option. And I think MovieBob is right when he implies that this is what concerns a lot of people: That fighting sexism in games is going to lead to the utter and complete removal of all sexy women ever. But he's right to tell us to chill. Even open-minded women will agree that you can't pass laws on what people can depict in fiction. So I don't think babes are going to go away.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Snip.

Okay, so you've never watched any of her videos. Cool.

 

[TheSchaef]

Not that Bob's wrong about the ongoing objectification of women in Western culture - and American culture in particular - but I have to confess it did seem more than a little weird hearing him preach to a throng of video-game-playing dweebs (present company included) that having something less than the athletic and pristinely hygienic look that is common among video game heroes, won't be a liability to them.

 

[Ickorus]

I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

Whilst not really doing anything more than telling us what we already know mixed with some ill-informed nonsense.

By the way, the majority of the idiotic Youtube comments stem from the fact she and her lackeys spammed 4chan which is very well known to be the sexist, racist, pretty-much-everything-ist asshole of the internet where no self-respecting gamer goes with her Youtube video.

Don't believe me?

http://youtu.be/OExCdOImmVA?t=10m55s

See for yourself.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

My main problem with Sarkeesian is the same issue I have with all feminists.

Good start to a misogynistic rant, eh?

But seriously. She, like all feminists, sees a different cause.

Feminism:
Misogyny, Stereotyping, Inequality, Sexism.

Me:
Gender Stereotyping, Inequality, Universal Sexism (as in, it goes both ways)

So I am totally and utterly happy for her to make her videos. Because I feel that they need to be made. Addressing tropes is a good thing and requesting 6 thousand dollars is not too insane to do so. But, like all feminists, in my eyes she fails to address the root of the problem, just one of its symptoms.

Although I would prefer it if it was "Tropes vs Everyone: People in Video Games".

Yes, there are absolutely problematic portrayals of men in videogames. Yes, someone should make a video series examining the ways that tropes harm men, too (though really, often these are the other side of a coin that's sexist in portraying women - men are considered "disposable" protectors because women are weak and in need of protecting, for instance).

However, someone who wants to just make a series about women is under no obligations to make it about men, too. That should be our job, as men.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

Whilst not really doing anything more than telling us what we already know mixed with some ill-informed nonsense.

By the way, the majority of the idiotic Youtube comments stem from the fact she and her lackeys spammed 4chan which is very well known to be the sexist, racist, pretty-much-everything-ist asshole of the internet where no self-respecting gamer goes with her Youtube video.

Don't believe me?

http://youtu.be/OExCdOImmVA?t=10m55s

See for yourself.

You missed that this went way beyond YouTube comments, didn't you? People were defacing her Wikipedia page, trying to get her kickstarter shut down, etc.

 

[michael87cn]

Bull, moviebob. If someone refuses to hire someone "because they don't look like Lara Croft" they're retarded. Video games = fantasy. Very few people have problems with confusing fantasy and reality, so yeah, the portrayal of men and women in fantasy/fiction is unrealistic, but it has NO bearing on reality or how women are treated in real life. Unless someone is just a stupid asshole, but you can't really blame a video game for making someone that.

Video games don't make people suicidal or murderously violent. Video games do not make men sexist, and video games are not damaging to women in the slightest. They are fiction, they are fantasy and there's nothing wrong with that. Feminists be darned. I swear anything with an 'ist' in it is bad...for everyone.

 

[Monoclebear]

I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

Yeah but the thing is she didn't ask for that much. What should she do if people WANT to give her so much money?

 

[Ragsnstitches]

So novelists who get advances on their novels are scamming, too?

She's a novelist now?

So that they can eat/live/do stuff with their life while they work on their project?

Did she make it perfectly clear that part of the money would be used to pay for her living expenses?

Academic research takes time and money

I don't remember paying 160k the last time I bought a book.

and if you've actually bothered to look into things she's going to be doing stuff with the $152k she DIDNT ask for that might be worth the money.

If she din't need the excess money she could've either given it back or donated it to a charity. So far, she has done neither of those things. She does not need 160k to make a six part video series, in fact she didn't even need 6k.

But no, it actually was sexist misogynistic pigs who tried shutting her down before they'd even heard her arguments.

I'm guessing you didn't bother looking into this issue besides reading the Escapist' and Kotaku's articles on the matter.

Caveat emptor. If you don't like her videos, then don't watch them. You don't have to be tactless and crass to make your point.

You're either missing the point or being purposefully obtuse.

Also some people like her videos and wanted to donate.

And that somehow doesn't make this a scam how?

Ooooh...OOOOOH. PICK ME!

1. Nope, but his point still stands and you neither refuted it nor attempted to show how one independent differs from the other.

2. No, its a given. As with any other project ever conceived by man, if costs are involved the persons living expenses are part of that. The issue here, in your regard, is inexperience or lack of adequate understanding.

3. Considering she only asked for 6000 to start with, said she would do more with the extra cash (up to 50,000) which included bonus videos and also a separate project, and is now discussing with her backers what she will do with the rest, its more then just research. But even if you think research amounts only to one book... well, at least we know where you lack of knowledge comes from.

4. Considering its only been a week since the funding ended, she now has to discuss possible uses of the cash with her backers. How about a little patience? She didn't expect to get this much (ironically, thanks to the trolls).

5. Nope his point is perfectly clear. Its their money, not yours. Its their risk, not yours. The only beef you have is that it exists and you think those people are stupid and she's manipulative (despite being as transparent as possible about progress).

6. It will only constitute as a scam if she doesn't meet all her promises and tactfully uses the cash funded. Therefore NO ONE can call it a scam. As of now, it is still in progress.

Also considering she is a public image, has her real name and her real image depicted in multiple places on the web, she can't make off with 150000 without getting some serious heat on her ass. Think logically.

 

[Ickorus]

I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

Whilst not really doing anything more than telling us what we already know mixed with some ill-informed nonsense.

By the way, the majority of the idiotic Youtube comments stem from the fact she and her lackeys spammed 4chan which is very well known to be the sexist, racist, pretty-much-everything-ist asshole of the internet where no self-respecting gamer goes with her Youtube video.

Don't believe me?

http://youtu.be/OExCdOImmVA?t=10m55s

See for yourself.

You missed that this went way beyond YouTube comments, didn't you? People were defacing her Wikipedia page, trying to get her kickstarter shut down, etc.

4chan and oh, I don't know.. 4chan.

That sort of shit is what they live for, being the asshole of the internet and all.

 

[yeti585]

Read "The Odyssey" sometime. Odysseus was a heroic, masculine man according to Classical Greek virtues. But in modern society, he would be considered a psychopath. Societal virtues and gender roles have changed.

Odysseus was a hero. The Odyssey followed him on his "hero's journey". How would a soldier going to war be psychopathic today?

I said we don't have enough, not that they don't exist. Please do not deliberately misquote me.

And if the men who believe this are misguided, then shouldn't something be done about that?

Yes, something should be done about that.

Well, you should criticize Homer and "classic Greek" culture because many of our characters and archetypes are influenced and based around them. But, that is not what this discussion is about.

I'm going to read that as, "I've never actually read 'The Odyssey.'"

Because we don't have stories that follow the "hero's journey" archetype.

You must have missed the part about people taking credit and blame for their work.

Really? He has to be portrayed as a snarling, one-note fuckwit who only cares about his own issues? He can only be marketed as a walking billboard for steroids?

That's all you said he was, a flat character. Marketing him as anything else would be false wouldn't it?

 

[Allthingsspectacular]

I disagree that it is kneejerk because Extra Credits brought up the same issue and they weren't jumped for it. Although building up major brownie points before hand has more to do with it.

Diversity is a lovely thing. But I think this has less to do with the issues brought up, and more to do with the person behind it and the project goals. Which whole video parts will be made just to deconstruct certain archetypes. Which isn't AT ALL helpful towards the cause and will only get people to attack your movement as you're basically attacking what they love with no actual substance.