The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Hey, quick question that I just don't have the time to go through seventeen pages to look through.

Since all the examples were white, and those power fantasies weren't made for me as a black dude (given I can never look like that)... can I still complain? Or is it since they are still male, it matters more than not being my race? and if that's the case, doesn't the fact that they are female matter more than the body type?

I'm not trying to troll, but this is the flip side of the argument that I also deal with on a daily basis. I figure if we can knock them both out at once, we can stop dealing with this on all sides.

 

[Purplecoyote]

The thing that bugs me the most is not that female characters are so often put in these sexy outfits but that it's all there is to them. They are not created with a real personality in mind but more like "let's make a sexy female character and we'll write a personality to go with it."

And of course that females are often put in sexy outfits for the viewer and not for the sake of the character itself. That's why I love Bayonetta so much, as was said on the PAX pannel that the Escapist did a few years ago, "Bayonetta is hot, but she's not hot for you."

But so far I'm still waiting for gaming's Ellen Ripley. Femshep comes close but we're not quite there yet.

 

[ACman]

All I've seen from you guys is a bunch attempts to invalidate those rights

Not a single damn one of us ever said they don't have the right to do these things. Just because we consider them amoral and/or stupid doesn't mean we think they should be illegal. I'm done dealing with your idiotic strawmen.

Did I say that you said that you were saying that they should be illegal? Seems like you're building your own straw-man buddy.

What I said was that you disregard the rights of and opinions of everybody who decided to donate to the kick-starter merely because you disagree with the opinions of it's creator.

There's absolutly no evidence that you give a damn about and other kickstarter that fulfils the yours and other's definition of being a "scam". (A word generally reserved for things like pyramid and ponzi schemes - which ARE illegal.)

 

[Master_of_Oldskool]

Does anyone else feel that the whole "buff males are a male power fantasy, so it's not really sexist against males" argument is bullshit? Playing a guy bulging with muscles and a codpiece hiding what one can only assume is an extraneous fifth testicle doesn't draw me into an enjoyable fantasy. It makes me feel like an inadequate fat bastard. Granted, I am an inadequate fat bastard, but the point stands.

And yes, I'm aware that Bob's main point was that female characters tend to be there purely for eye-candy, and that male characters at least tend to have personalities and skills and shit, and that there is still a massive problem with objectifying women in games. I'm just saying, unrealistic standards of beauty are a problem for both genders.

 

[Kroxile]

Without reading the whole thread (or much of it beyond the first 2 posts rather) I'm going to go ahead and say: While men in games may not have been designed for women, they are designed for women in movies.

Look no farther than twilight's Jacob for proof.

Now, it is unfortunate that women still get hired on looks instead of merit in some cases, but it isn't as bad as it used to be and I have yet to encounter the "Women get paid less for doing the same amount of work" thing that people keep bitching about.

I think feminism as a whole is a joke. While there are plenty of good causes for such a thing to exist it mostly is a joke.

 

[medv4380]

And? You can definitely find different types of female characters in games, but looking at the mainstream games, not so much. What you're saying that it's okay because there are some niche markets for them, or that there are some. That's like saying that since there are some games without racism, racism is totally okay in games.

Besides, you are missing the point here, by pointing to characters that are completely fetishized, and so intended to be sex-objects even more so. When the point is that female characters in games shouldn't be always designed with just their sex appeal in mind.

Who is arguing that women shouldn't be seen sexually? You? It seems like you're turning this argument into something Bob never said, so you can more easily refute it.

Besides, what stops one from caring about this issue and also about how these attitudes affect people more directly in real life?

Bob clearly stated that we are including all video games with humanoid characters. Just because it's not mainstream to you doesn't mean you get to cherry pick to fabricate things to fit into your world view. He clearly has no taste in thing that arnt targeted at people with the beach babe fetish. That's his problem and yours.

Bob is making the argument against ALL women because it wouldn't matter what female type was put into little slide show his argument would still be the same irrational "we shouldn't see so many pretty women". I could put any type of women excluding Obese and their would be a significant number of people who would view them as TOO SEXUAL. The woman could look like a man and some how men would still find her attractive, and that's actually not a problem. That's how we are wired if you got rid of it in any species they would die off. Men are supposed to view women as attractive, and vice versa. We will always size up our mates to the mates of others and we will always lust after that which we cannot or should not have.

What stops me from caring about this issue is the ultimate end to Bobs logic is to actually oppress women, and is probably the core of why society has been in constant oscillation of having women completely oppressed as things to barter and women being free to walk the streets.

 

[Schadrach]

You, like many others, are falling into the trap of suggesting that you have better ideas for this woman about how she could be spending her time. That perhaps she should be working directly with game developers rather than being all uppity and making noise you would rather not have to hear. You may or may not be aware that you're doing it, but it's known in the feminist parlance as 'mansplaining'.

Mansplaining is when a guy tells a woman (or anyone else, I suppose) that he has a better idea about what she is trying to do, or say. Putting himself in the automatic position of authority and talking down to that individual, educating them about the err of their ways or the superior way of going about something. Even if the intent is altruistic (I have no reason to believe you have anything but the best intentions in mind), it is condescending.

Yes, mansplaining, where we invent a pejorative for "disagreeing with a woman while male" to use as a silencing tactic.

You know, if we reverse the genders on it, it sounds exactly like what she's raised a large sum of money to do, strangely enough. But then, it can't be some variety of 'splaining when she does it, because the whole point is to be able to use it as a blanket silencing tactic when someone from the wrong demographic disagrees.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Bob, I'm just going to have to clarify something. When people like myself say it's perfectly alright for games that are aimed at a male demographic to have some T&A parked out front because men generally don't get offended when women do it too, we're not referring to male power fantasies such as Marcus Fenix or Kratos or at least we shouldn't be.


We're talking about these guys, you're familiar with these guys right?

[http://img278.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=204427334_Butter_122_547lo.jpg]

[http://img127.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=204437672_money_122_182lo.jpg]

[http://img25.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=204450669_Twilightbeefcake_122_253lo.jpg]

These sorts of male characters crop up all the time in media that panders to female demographics, and while I'm not familiar with any triple-A title that predominately features a cast of these sorts of stock female stroke fantasies, there is a metric fuck-ton of media already out there for the discerning female consumer whose fancy needs titillating.

And just by the by, if superman is mentioned we don't mean this Superman.

[http://img277.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=206071930_250px_Superman_122_95lo.jpg]

We mean this one.

[http://img162.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=206090946_Superman_122_508lo.jpg]

And while I'm uploading images, did you hear what surpassed the Harry Potter series as the fastest selling paper back of all time?

[http://img226.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=206712914_50ShadesofGreyCoverArt_122_495lo.jpg]

Uh-oh! Twilight morning re-hash. Now with even more objectification.

 

[Lilani]

Maldeus, the strawman,
he built a little world -
that he lived in because he didn't like girls.


And when a girl came along,
and asked for money to say that he was wrong,
he went to, the internet,
and set off a storm.


"It's an outrage,
it's a scandal
How dare she do this?
She's taking money,
to say things,
that I don't agree with."

"It's amoral,
and it's stupid,
It's a scam I damn well say,
I going on 4chan,
I'll show her,
I'll make that ***** pay."

But Maldeus, the straw man
he forgot something true,
That strawmen shouldn't start flamewars
And now he is through.

While I think I more or less agree with you, since one of your points is how immaturely the gaming community is reacting to this fundraiser, your presentation here isn't exactly proving you much better.

 

[LadyRhian]

All I've seen from you guys is a bunch attempts to invalidate those rights

Not a single damn one of us ever said they don't have the right to do these things. Just because we consider them amoral and/or stupid doesn't mean we think they should be illegal. I'm done dealing with your idiotic strawmen.

Maldeus, the strawman,
he built a little world -
that he lived in because he didn't like girls.


And when a girl came along,
and asked for money to say that he was wrong,
he went to, the internet,
and set off a storm.


"It's an outrage,
it's a scandal
How dare she do this?
She's taking money,
to say things,
that I don't agree with."

"It's amoral,
and it's stupid,
It's a scam I damn well say,
I going on 4chan,
I'll show her,
I'll make that ***** pay."

But Maldeus, the straw man
he forgot something true,
That strawmen shouldn't start flamewars
And now he is through.

Real mature, guy. That's what we need, MORE immaturity on both sides of this issue...

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

All I've seen from you guys is a bunch attempts to invalidate those rights

Not a single damn one of us ever said they don't have the right to do these things. Just because we consider them amoral and/or stupid doesn't mean we think they should be illegal. I'm done dealing with your idiotic strawmen.

Maldeus, the strawman,
he built a little world -
that he lived in because he didn't like girls.


And when a girl came along,
and asked for money to say that he was wrong,
he went to, the internet,
and set off a storm.


"It's an outrage,
it's a scandal
How dare she do this?
She's taking money,
to say things,
that I don't agree with."

"It's amoral,
and it's stupid,
It's a scam I damn well say,
I going on 4chan,
I'll show her,
I'll make that ***** pay."

But Maldeus, the straw man
he forgot something true,
That strawmen shouldn't start flamewars
And now he is through.

A haiku would have been more succinct. I'd be surprised if the post is compliant with the rules, good luck with that.

I don't think you get to talk about strawmen if you're going to be so happy to assign people values.

 

[itsthesheppy]

You, like many others, are falling into the trap of suggesting that you have better ideas for this woman about how she could be spending her time. That perhaps she should be working directly with game developers rather than being all uppity and making noise you would rather not have to hear. You may or may not be aware that you're doing it, but it's known in the feminist parlance as 'mansplaining'.

Mansplaining is when a guy tells a woman (or anyone else, I suppose) that he has a better idea about what she is trying to do, or say. Putting himself in the automatic position of authority and talking down to that individual, educating them about the err of their ways or the superior way of going about something. Even if the intent is altruistic (I have no reason to believe you have anything but the best intentions in mind), it is condescending.

Yes, mansplaining, where we invent a pejorative for "disagreeing with a woman while male" to use as a silencing tactic.

You know, if we reverse the genders on it, it sounds exactly like what she's raised a large sum of money to do, strangely enough. But then, it can't be some variety of 'splaining when she does it, because the whole point is to be able to use it as a blanket silencing tactic when someone from the wrong demographic disagrees.

That it's such a common thing for men to see her criticism as attacks on them, personally, makes me think that for a lot of people, what she says or intends to say is hitting very home with some folks. You see, the difference is that she is criticizing tropes in popular culture. What many people in this thread and beyond are doing is criticizing her, personally, and suggesting that their ideas are superior. Based on no evidence whatsoever. There is a difference between those two things.

It's depressingly common for men to turn it around and claim victimhood, because that's so much more comfortable than copping to the fact that maybe things really are unfair, and that pop culture entertainment has been perhaps skewed with young white men in mind. That we get the preferential treatment. And so few are willing to admit that. But you know they're thinking of it, because what purpose is a defense unless they feel they are being attacked? If her video was criticizing the types of nets used to catch crawfish, I don't imagine it would matter to you one bit how much money she raised to produce those videos. If she was raising the money to produce a skit show where she criticized games for not using enough motion blur, I imagine there would be a 4-page thread laughing it off, and that would be that.

Instead we have maybe 100+ forum pages about this subject across these forums, and probably worse elsewhere, of people up in arms over this. Why? Because they feel it is directed at them personally. It isn't, but they feel like it is and why is that? Because it has a ring of truth to it, and the idea that maybe you've been the one unfairly catered to isn't a pleasant one?

I for one accept it. It's easier, and a great deal less stressful, and I feel that if more recognized it for what it was, things would improve much faster.

 

[SnakeoilSage]

Just goes to show you that a broad spectrum of geeks are geeks by circumstance, forced into it by alpha males bigger than they are, and their only way of coping is to become the alpha males of the geek demographic: loud, surly, not particularly bright and itching to impose their archaic masculine values on geek culture. You're nothing but joke jocks, over-compensation for a presumed loss of machismo by saturating our mediums with your loud and obnoxious demand for beer and bodies and turning into grunting angry gorillas whenever someone tries to take you out of this little box reality you've put yourselves in.

But for a more reasoned perspective than my own, take a look at this:
http://sci-ence.org/on-playing-well-with-others/

 

[Britisheagle]

It has always been the way and although I do believe it should change and more women like real life women, I don't think it's that big of a deal personally.

I just hate when developers try to use said sexy ladies as a way of marketting and selling their game to horny teenagers to cover shoddy game mechanics, gameplay or otherwise poor reviews.

 

[Lieju]

And? You can definitely find different types of female characters in games, but looking at the mainstream games, not so much. What you're saying that it's okay because there are some niche markets for them, or that there are some. That's like saying that since there are some games without racism, racism is totally okay in games.

Besides, you are missing the point here, by pointing to characters that are completely fetishized, and so intended to be sex-objects even more so. When the point is that female characters in games shouldn't be always designed with just their sex appeal in mind.

Who is arguing that women shouldn't be seen sexually? You? It seems like you're turning this argument into something Bob never said, so you can more easily refute it.

Besides, what stops one from caring about this issue and also about how these attitudes affect people more directly in real life?

Bob clearly stated that we are including all video games with humanoid characters. Just because it's not mainstream to you doesn't mean you get to cherry pick to fabricate things to fit into your world view. He clearly has no taste in thing that arnt targeted at people with the beach babe fetish. That's his problem and yours.

So, you're basically saying that despite the majority of games being certain way, if you can find some niche games, it's not a problem how things are in the mainstream media. Sounds to me like you're cherrypicking here. It's you who are pointing at few games going 'See, we don't actually have problem because these obscure things exist'.

I don't choose the games I play based on how hot the women in the game are. Well, apart from certain kinds of games. But when I play games I tend to choose them based on the genre, and how good gameplay they have etc.

Bob is making the argument against ALL women because it wouldn't matter what female type was put into little slide show his argument would still be the same irrational "we shouldn't see so many pretty women". I could put any type of women excluding Obese and their would be a significant number of people who would view them as TOO SEXUAL. The woman could look like a man and some how men would still find her attractive, and that's actually not a problem. That's how we are wired if you got rid of it in any species they would die off. Men are supposed to view women as attractive, and vice versa. We will always size up our mates to the mates of others and we will always lust after that which we cannot or should not have.

What stops me from caring about this issue is the ultimate end to Bobs logic is to actually oppress women, and is probably the core of why society has been in constant oscillation of having women completely oppressed as things to barter and women being free to walk the streets.

Again, this is not about how there shouldn't be attractive women in video-games, or that there should be no sexy female characters. Stop trying to pretend this is an argument about that.

 

[medv4380]

So, you're basically saying that despite the majority of games being certain way, if you can find some niche games, it's not a problem how things are in the mainstream media. Sounds to me like you're cherrypicking here. It's you who are pointing at few games going 'See, we don't actually have problem because these obscure things exist'.

I don't choose the games I play based on how hot the women in the game are. Well, apart from certain kinds of games. But when I play games I tend to choose them based on the genre, and how good gameplay they have etc.

Again, this is not about how there shouldn't be attractive women in video-games, or that there should be no sexy female characters. Stop trying to pretend this is an argument about that.

You're the one who said "but those aren't main stream" so you're the one who's cherry picking. Cherry Picking is exclusionary. I'm including everything which is the opposite of Cherry Picking if you're having a problem with definitions.

This is entirely about "women should be seen as attractive". The reason is that regardless of what type of women was in the game the views of the men playing them would be pretty much the same. They'd instantly become sex objects in the minds of some and his argument would still be the same. The argument of women are being objectified as needing to be this that or the other is ultimately women should be seen as sexy, which usually become women should be seen at all.

 

[BNguyen]

Oh, yeah, while we're at it, her standards for what counts as a "good portrayal of women in gaming" appears to be totally non-existent. If there's a good example of a female character, she picks some random trait like "is violent" and uses that to condemn the character as being not good enough, even though being violent in bloody True Grit is not exactly a drawback.

Oh no she doesn't like the portrayal of women in videogames!!!!

WAAAAAHHH!

Look I don't particularly agree with her either but she has a right to say these things, - a right to make videos about it, and a right to start a kickstarter to fund those videos.

And people have a right to give to that kick starter and did in large numbers even before the sexism shit-storm.

All I've seen from you guys is a bunch attempts to invalidate those rights purely because you disagree with her. Either ignore her or actually engage with her on a mature level. If you can't do either of those things then you validate her point of view and make us gamer guys look worse.

there are times in our society where the continued allowance of free speech to just anyone and harm society and culture if not moderated, such as this woman's videos. She continues to talk of "bad character design or sexist character design" while mentioning nothing of why it is that way or that its by someone's RIGHT to FREE SPEECH to allow it to exist at all. She is condemning one form of free speech, in this case a man of group of males' right to create sexy female characters while promoting every female needs to be perfect and anything else is wrong because I don't see value in any character that doesn't meet my criteria.