The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[Riobux]

They're not taken seriously. They're just given screentime because outrage means you look at news about them and see more ads. In fact, going on about them like you are is giving them more publicity and making them seem stronger than they actually are.

Feminists like Oakley, yes, people take their feminist ideals as serious as Doomsday prophecies. However, this particular video that is going to be produced apparently is taken seriously enough to not only get serious funding but also has been used in classrooms and by parents to their children. This isn't just "oh god, someone has an opinion I disagree with", this is people being taught about the importance of very particular plights (complete with delightful villains) with the disregarding of others. The seriousness people are taking this video (admittedly I am, but I'm thinking more of a non-critical stance) is my problem.

There certainly are, and there are also some really terrible ones, and also some who claim to be the nicer variety unless something offends them. There's also the ones that try to arrange campaigns to destroy media that they dislike. Also ones that advocate mass castration of men. These are all equally feminist, because "feminism is not a monolith", which while also meaning that you don't have to defend the positions of feminists, even very popular and/or mainstream ones because, also sets the bar for who can be counted as feminist very, very low.

By some definitions, as I have pointed out in several of these threads, *I* am feminist, as I believe that men and women should have identical rights and responsibilities where possible, and as similar as possible when not possible (reproductive rights have to be asymmetric due to biology, but "asymmetric" doesn't mean need to mean "the father has none, only obligations which remain even if the mother was dishonest about his paternity"), with no one getting special benefits because of what is between their legs. However I also believe that patriarchy theory is effectively religious dogma, being unfalsifiable and axiomatic. I don't accept the concept of rape culture either (in short: the argument that has been done to death regarding video games and violence is mutually exclusive with the theory of rape culture unless rape is "magic" in some fashion). Etc, etc, etc.

Oh I believe very strongly in the importance in equality. I also believe that there should be equality between men and females as much as possible including money pay and what jobs are accessible, including one or two stands that may be seen as controversial (e.g. pregnancy as an agreed concept rather than one deciding and pushing it onto the other in various ways, which can become disturbing when one decides to get money out of the second using law loopholes). However, the reason why I hate the term "feminist" and would never apply it to myself is because gender differences aren't the only part I feel strongly about. The fact that countless feminists only concentrate on gender differences irritates me just because there are also sexuality and race problems existing in video games. Not to mention, the video in question is incredibly critical in favour of females instead of a view of "well, women have it worse, but men have their own problems too".

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Despite the fact that I have been out of this thread for quite some time now (at least 24 hours) and had a very nice discussion with itsthesheppy, I just wanted to chime in one last time, to correct an assumption:
The assumption that ALL OF 4CHAN IS MISOGYNIST:
4chan is divided into imageboards with a lot of variety, most of which aren't really that well-known and usually quite a nice place to be and not at all misogynist.
And then there is /b/ (gotta break rules 1 and 2).
/b/ is known for being, well, /b/.
But the misogynie many of you refer to probably stems from the "TITS OR GTFO"- posts which are usually made as a response to someone outing themselves as female.
The reason why they are made though is not misogynistic.
See, on /b/ everyone is equal and everyone is anonymous. No-one knows anything about anyone else, and yet everyone is free to interact with one another. Proclaiming yourself to be a female is usually done in several circumstances:

1. Attention whoring.

2. Trying to make your opinion seem "special" because, cleary, you must be the only woman present, which is why your female insight on the issue should be singled out and hailed as special.

In both these cases, the proclamation of one's gender is but a demand for special treatment, which goes against the principles of equality, the very foundation of the "anonymous"-structure.
So, in order to prevent this it was established, that, should a woman expect special treatment simply on the merit of her being a woman, then she should first provide a picture of her breasts with a timestamp, in the hopes that this would stop others from proclaiming themselves to be women and expecting special treatment.

Anonymous has no race
Anonymous has no gender

So trying to single yourself out, by giving yourself a race or a gender goes against the prevailing equality.

There are times of course, when you are free to give yourself a name, a race and a gender, usually when asking for advice or sharing an experience, which gives a legitimate reason to single yourself out, and I must admit, that many young "newfags" don't quite get what titsorgtfo is about in that case, which is why you will often find demands for tits in threads started by a woman for legitimate reasons (a.e. not attention-whoring), simply because many do not understand why "t or gtfo" was established in the first place and I will admit that these instances are misogynistic, and that nowadays, they are far from being scarce, but please refrain from calling 4chan or /b/ misogynistic without giving further details or examples.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Your third point falls flat on its face because showing us a muscled man and telling us "this is what you want to look like" is JUST LIKE showing Jessica Alba's body to any girl and telling her "this is what you want to look like", despite ANYONE'S intentions. You can be sure I'll be offended by people telling me that it's the same thing that happens to women, but it doesn't matter when it happens to you, because you want to look like this.

I actually, don't at ALL want huge muscles and like my body the way it is and I'm sure my female counterpart feels the same way about her body, however it may look.

Your first point is not in the context of video games, so I'm not seeing why it had to be included. The thing is, her campaign is about the portrayal of women in video games, NOT generally in real, every day life.

and while I suppose your second point does hold water, the fact is, since your other points are either not in the same context that people are arguing and your third point is just sexist at best, I'm not seeing how this video said anything worthwhile.

If you want to tackle the subject of sexism, you have to do it equally for both men and women or not at all or I won't support you.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Wow, you really hate Anita and from the sounds of it any woman who voices her opinion on sexism, don't you?

You're never going to have sex with her. Hug?

This may come as a shock to you, but it is feasible for people to support a womans opinion on something without wanting to have sex with her. The fact this is your go-to argument tells loads ofn your views on women and the validity of their opinions.

She wanted to make a video about something, got a massive amount of support (and hate) and now plans on doing what she set out to do with a greatly increased scope. Every post of yours on this thread has been accusing her of being a scammer, an incompetent and every other horrible thing under the sun, all because she's talking about something you don't like.

In short, grow up you massive fucking child.

edit: I also reported your contentless post.

You're responding to a joke. I think he's referencing a back-and-forth he had with DrVornoff earlier in the thread...I laughed.

I don't know how people can't tell that the guy has been pissed off about his treatment for a while now. If he's going to engage anyone, it's going to have to be someone who isn't bringing a superior attitude. Flogging a dead horse, savvy?

 

[PiCroft]

Wow, you really hate Anita and from the sounds of it any woman who voices her opinion on sexism, don't you?

You're never going to have sex with her. Hug?

This may come as a shock to you, but it is feasible for people to support a womans opinion on something without wanting to have sex with her. The fact this is your go-to argument tells loads ofn your views on women and the validity of their opinions.

She wanted to make a video about something, got a massive amount of support (and hate) and now plans on doing what she set out to do with a greatly increased scope. Every post of yours on this thread has been accusing her of being a scammer, an incompetent and every other horrible thing under the sun, all because she's talking about something you don't like.

In short, grow up you massive fucking child.

edit: I also reported your contentless post.

You're responding to a joke. I think he's referencing a back-and-forth he had with DrVornoff earlier in the thread...I laughed.

I don't know how people can't tell that the guy has been pissed off about his treatment for a while now. If he's going to engage anyone, it's going to have to be someone who isn't bringing a superior attitude. Flogging a dead horse, savvy?

This point:

She wanted to make a video about something, got a massive amount of support (and hate) and now plans on doing what she set out to do with a greatly increased scope. Every post of yours on this thread has been accusing her of being a scammer, an incompetent and every other horrible thing under the sun, all because she's talking about something you don't like.

Still stands.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

Really, if the woman was dumb enough to provoke 4chan, a wretched hive of scum and villainy devoid of any sense of conventional morality, infamous both for its boundless stupidity and endless capacity for lulz, then she reaps what she sowed.

That's like dropping a rich American businessperson into Somalia, then acting all surprised when they get hogtied and held for ransom.

(apologies to any Somali's out there.)

 

[Sir Prize]

On one hand I agree with Bob in that 'gamers' be shouldn't reacting with the amount of vemon and sexist comments (jokes and trolling or not) that have been used. Trolls should be ignored and so on, but there's also the fact that 'gamers' shouldn't prove the stereotypes to be true. If someone wants to research a serious issue and apply it to games they should be allowed, without so much backfire.

Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

However as many posters here have said, I have my doubts about the project and kickstarter. This could just be my knee-jerk reaction to any kickstarter now, having seen enough examples of such things being used to make money and little else. To me $6000 seems a little much if plans to do the same thing she has done in her other vids, which I think don't explore the subject enough. If she plans to go more in-depth then far enough, we'll have to see the kickstarter was worthwhile.

I'll also note that she has apparantly tried to review the amount of sexist in a game she didn't bother playing. That alone screams 'not taking this seriously' or at least trying to make a strawman arguement. If that is anything to go by, I doubt she'll put the research or effort into her series and it will be shallow and pointless. But I hope that I am wrong.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Wow, you really hate Anita and from the sounds of it any woman who voices her opinion on sexism, don't you?

You're never going to have sex with her. Hug?

This may come as a shock to you, but it is feasible for people to support a womans opinion on something without wanting to have sex with her. The fact this is your go-to argument tells loads ofn your views on women and the validity of their opinions.

She wanted to make a video about something, got a massive amount of support (and hate) and now plans on doing what she set out to do with a greatly increased scope. Every post of yours on this thread has been accusing her of being a scammer, an incompetent and every other horrible thing under the sun, all because she's talking about something you don't like.

In short, grow up you massive fucking child.

edit: I also reported your contentless post.

You're responding to a joke. I think he's referencing a back-and-forth he had with DrVornoff earlier in the thread...I laughed.

I don't know how people can't tell that the guy has been pissed off about his treatment for a while now. If he's going to engage anyone, it's going to have to be someone who isn't bringing a superior attitude. Flogging a dead horse, savvy?

This point:

She wanted to make a video about something, got a massive amount of support (and hate) and now plans on doing what she set out to do with a greatly increased scope. Every post of yours on this thread has been accusing her of being a scammer, an incompetent and every other horrible thing under the sun, all because she's talking about something you don't like.

Still stands.

He's gotten at least as much as he's given out, and for saying things that people don't like.

There's hypocrisy evident here. Do we believe in free speech or don't we? Do we think that going on the attack is the best way to win anyone over? As far as I can tell, if you assume the worst of someone and then tell them that they're a woman-hating clueless and inept loser, the likelihood is that they'll go on the defensive. There's not much chance that they're going to think you're awesome and come around to your way of thinking.

Bullshit on both sides, friend. This has only become a microcosm for the insidious nature of this forum as a whole. It's not enough to have a good point, you have to dominate, conceed nothing.

 

[maximara]

After watching a few of her earlier videos I have to say the problem is with the messenger rather than the message.

One of the problems with her earlier videos is she has the comments is up for approval option on effectively stacking the deck and squelching any real meaningful comment--so those who have been suppressed for a long time got a chance to nuts and say stupid things egging on the trolls to add in their two cents and things quickly go down the tubes.

It doesn't help her "research" is at best laughable when it is not totally pathetic. For example, her portrayal of Captain Janeway as a *favorable* female lead character in her "The Smurfette Principle" shows she doesn't do anything even resembling research. Depending on the episode Janeway is either portrayed as crazier then Captain Garth and Janice Lester combined while being dumber then John Gill of TOS (a point reviewer SF Debris loves to bring up again and again) or Captain Mary Sue.

She seems to be avoiding a point that the Over Thinker brought up way back in "Mississippi Pwning 2" (E23)-the brass tax that encourages these tropes because most gamers are young white males. Then you have the whole "Video Games Come From Japan" problem with all that entails.

Yes there is a problem but this is not the person you want to bring up the issue because you _know_ the research is going to be so bad-one sided that everybody with sense will dismiss it as "feminist strawmen argument BS" and it will do the same amount of damage to the movement as the extremists who wanted 'policeman' turned into 'policeperson' and other totally off the wall nonsense.

 

[PiCroft]

After watching a few of her earlier videos I have to say the problem is with the messenger rather than the message.

One of the problems with her earlier videos is she has the comments is up for approval option on effectively stacking the deck and squelching any real meaningful comment--so those who have been suppressed for a long time got a chance to nuts and say stupid things egging on the trolls to add in their two cents and things quickly go down the tubes.

It doesn't help her "research" is at best laughable when it is not totally pathetic. For example, her portrayal of Captain Janeway as a *favorable* female lead character in her "The Smurfette Principle" shows she doesn't do anything even resembling research. Depending on the episode Janeway is either portrayed as crazier then Captain Garth and Janice Lester combined while being dumber then John Gill of TOS (a point reviewer SF Debris loves to bring up again and again) or Captain Mary Sue.

She seems to be avoiding a point that the Over Thinker brought up way back in "Mississippi Pwning 2" (E23)-the brass tax that encourages these tropes because most gamers are young white males. Then you have the whole "Video Games Come From Japan" problem with all that entails.

Yes there is a problem but this is not the person you want to bring up the issue because you _know_ the research is going to be so bad-one sided that everybody with sense will dismiss it as "feminist strawmen argument BS" and it will do the same amount of damage to the movement as the extremists who wanted 'policeman' turned into 'policeperson' and other totally off the wall nonsense.

While I disagree with your assessment of Sarkezians work, I kind of agree with your Janeway comment. Janeway was terribly written, which was a shame because Kate Mulgrew did a decent job at portraying her. I read that she didn't know how to play a character so badly written so she eventually settled on portraying her as a high-functioning schizophrenic.

Which, if you go back and watch Voyager, actually kind of works.

 

[jmarquiso]

Yes there is a problem but this is not the person you want to bring up the issue because you _know_ the research is going to be so bad-one sided that everybody with sense will dismiss it as "feminist strawmen argument BS" and it will do the same amount of damage to the movement as the extremists who wanted 'policeman' turned into 'policeperson' and other totally off the wall nonsense.

While I agree - and keep in mind most of the those addressing this have said something like MovieBob's "I may have some issue with some of her past episodes..." - it doesn't take away from the fact that this is obviously an unwelcome point of view to the point of harassment. On the one hand we have backers willing to hear her out to the tune of 150,000 (not nearly the only webseries that has been overfunded to such an extent), and on the other a very vocal group who have harassed her privately and publicly for having this project.

While I may disagree with her - and, like Bob, I do disagree with a few things in her past videos, while agree with others - I am worried that another feminist voice, or even a female voice, will receive similar treatment.

 

[maximara]

Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

 

[Sir Prize]

Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

Point taken on the first bit.

The writers didn't seem to understand the main character they were working with, or any of the other characters for that matter.

 

[maximara]

Yes there is a problem but this is not the person you want to bring up the issue because you _know_ the research is going to be so bad-one sided that everybody with sense will dismiss it as "feminist strawmen argument BS" and it will do the same amount of damage to the movement as the extremists who wanted 'policeman' turned into 'policeperson' and other totally off the wall nonsense.

While I agree - and keep in mind most of the those addressing this have said something like MovieBob's "I may have some issue with some of her past episodes..." - it doesn't take away from the fact that this is obviously an unwelcome point of view to the point of harassment. On the one hand we have backers willing to hear her out to the tune of 150,000 (not nearly the only webseries that has been overfunded to such an extent), and on the other a very vocal group who have harassed her privately and publicly for having this project.

While I may disagree with her - and, like Bob, I do disagree with a few things in her past videos, while agree with others - I am worried that another feminist voice, or even a female voice, will receive similar treatment.

Again this goes back the earlier point I had earlier on in the above post--her previous videos and now the kickstarter one have the 'comments is up for approval' option on which can be used to stack the deck as well as squelch any real meaningful discussion.

This creates resentment!

As for agree with some points let me grace you with a quote:

"We have faith in the rights of our people, the rights which have existed time out of mind. We protest against the view that every other nation should have rights - and we have none. We must learn to make our own this blind faith in the rights of our people, in the necessity of devoting ourselves to the service of these rights; we must make our own the faith that gradually victory must be granted us if only we are fanatical enough. And from this love and from this faith there emerges for us the idea of hope."

Those sound like ideas that a lot of modern people would agree with.

Now here is the sting in the tail as it were--those words were spoken in Munich on May 1, 1923 by none other than Adolf Hitler!

Remember my point was messenger vs message--the message may be good but take a careful look at the messenger giving you that message. Is the *entire package* good or are the good parts used to couch something you don't agree with and if made separately you would violent disagree with?

That whole go to 4chan to effectively *attract* the trolls stunt makes me seriously question her motives.

 

[Daaaah Whoosh]

As I recall, the same sexism stands for every other medium as well. Even in books, I'm sure people imagine the heroines to be attractive, because that's just what people want to see. And what's the difference between a man idealized for men and one idealized for women? Maybe I don't know too much about women, but I feel like they're not too different from us.