The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[Blade_125]

[quote="PotatoeMan" post="6.379179.14859803Well you are picking one aspect of history, you need would need to look at what was expected of men. As providers they would have been expected to support their family unit and different cultures had different value i.e. the celts were quite progressive but this is way off topic.

This also goes back to marketing and what idea is being sold. Ideally people should not buy products that portray ideals they don?t agree with. Ask someone who has kids and they will probably say they give into what the kid wants rather than sticking to their principles. Think of the Simpsons episode where Lisa designs the doll.[/quote]

If it was biological it wouldn't matter what point in history I picked, as it would be the most common point of view at the time.

I agree that a lot of differences between men and women can be traced back to the hunter (men) and gatherer (women). I would even accept that more women than men are not interested in really advancing that high up in their career. What I don't think is that women can advance as they wish based on their skill. Not based on what I have seen in life.

let also be clear on marketing and purchases. A parent can refuse to buy the horribly sexist toys, but unless they keep their kids lving in the basement it is impossible for them not to be bombarded with marketing. Take a look at commercials. I mean really look. Past the product. See what message they seem to send.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

Internet idiots attack N'Gai Croal for claiming racism in Resident Evil 5? Bob sides with the idiots and blatantly says that he's wrong.

Internet idiots attack a pretty feminist for daring to have an opinion on video games? Bob LEAPS into action to save the princess from the eeeevil trolls.

Bob, you're no different than the people you're attacking in this video. You're a white knight of the HIGHEST order, and that's sickening. Thanks for letting me know that this is your "issue of the month" so I can skip this weeks OverEdito-uhh...I mean, OverThinker.

I highly, highly doubt anyone was trying to silence N'Gai Croal for daring to have an opinion. Disagreeing with him for what he says, even violently and with the undercurrent of genuine racism, isn't anything close to trying to shut Sarkeesian down *BEFORE SHE EVEN GOT STARTED*

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

Darn, Moviebob, here I was thinking my opinion of you couldn't drop any lower.
Probably the most painful part of the clip was "women won't get a job because they look mediocre but men will because who cares about what men look like". Idk how it's like in the good ol us of a, but here in the EU, it's pretty much identical.
You don't look as fit as an underwear model(either male or female)? Gratz, you just lost out on a TON of job opportunities.

The entire thing just stank of double standards and white knight nonsense to me and I'm not even anti-feminist

Don't know about the example, but I agree with the sentiment.

Male distaste for feminists isn't a videogame based phenomenon, men aren't annoyed because women are lobbying for Lara to have smaller breasts. Believe it or not...it goes deeper.

I haven't watched much Feminist frequency, because...she seems like a bit of a prat, by my reckoning. I will plug girlwriteswhat as someone who speaks about gender issues that is worth listening to.

I love the link she is intresting. I think I found something else to follow.
http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat

She is awesome.

GWW is a dyed-in-the-wool anti-feminist and MRA blogger, who has regularly written columns at A Voice for Men - a site which has been identified by the Southern Poverty Law Center as one of "hundreds of websites, blogs and forums dedicated to savaging feminists in particular and women, very typically American women, in general." [http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites]

Under no circumstances should she be taken as a credible or impartial spearker on gender issues.

-m

"She is not female-bias so you should not listen to her! Only female-bias speakers are worth listen to!"
Do i got you right?

In general, bias should lean on the side of the marginalized person rather than the person with the institutional power, yes.

(Also, biased.)

 

[medv4380]

How about a world were men can be trusted no to rape a woman because they see some hair or ankle and women are judged by the skill they bring to the job/issue/whatever and nothing else.

In order for that to happen you need to be aware of the problem. There is no "here is the way to fix this problem" solution aside frmo education and changing the perspectice of people. Bob's episode is a great example of this solution, so I completely disagree with your statement. If one young boy starts to question why he thinks less of women then this video was a success.

Unfortunately, awareness of the problem will not make the problem go away. Rape is not a human exclusive issue. It's been documented in primates and other animals so it's been around for a long time. Sitting around talking about how women shouldn't be sexually appealing wont fix that issue.

Women and Men are hard wired to find the other sexually attractive. You can bind your breasts, change your voice, your cloths, and look like a man and some how some way some man will find your irresistibly sexually attractive. Bobs argument falls flat because it ignores that simple little truth. I could replace every game character with flat chested tom boys and Bob would be making the same irrational argument.

Did you miss the part where he said female characters in revealing outfits is okay? But that it would be nice if women were represented by a wider spectrum of body-types and characterisation?
"Mai looking like she does is awesome. Everyone looking like she does is stupid"

Play different kinds of games and you'll get those different body types. Clearly from the vid Bob plays mostly Western titles and titles targeted at the West and the Beach Babe Fetish Types. Really, I'm not joking that the Flat Chested, Unemotional, Business Lady is a fetish in Japan and I know for a fact they have games with character just like that.

This is a world view completely lacking in any sense of nuance, there's no reason everything has to be one extreme or the other. Expecting people to be prudent and responsible in their behavior and in the creative works they produce isn't advocating censorship.

Censorship is a cold, binary thing, "Material X contains content Y, content Y is inappropriate, material X is banned." This is a call for conversation: Rather than deciding that something is objectionable based solely on content, we should be looking at the context of that content, and what the overall works says about that content, and then not ban something if we decide that what it's saying is objectionable, but simply be aware of the potentially harmful messages to which we're being exposed.

As far as a solution to objectification, that should be fairly obvious: Creators should treat female characters as they would any other, give them fully developed personalities, and have them act (and dress) logically within that personality. Objectification doesn't come from sexualization, but through sexualization lacking any other context, i.e. a female characters with no defining characteristics beyond their body and their sexuality.

We have to live in reality, and it has a hard time balancing out things humans find sexual.
Your options are only to accept it for what it is or to censor it. That is the only way this particular argument ends.

Their are far better arguments about Sexism and Womens Rights then this one.
The right to vote, the right not to be bartered and traded as property, the right to work, the right for equal pay, and so on.

The argument of Women shouldn't be seen sexually is one that only has two outcomes. The only 3rd option is to ignore the argument entirely because the outcomes are unacceptable.

 

[WanderingFool]

Mrs.Tropes should or shouldn't get the donated money. So it's not just you guys talking, I'll say that I think that we should wait and see what she does with what's left after the videos are done. Then we can judge her by her actions. Ex. Well she
A.Use all the money for the videos making them way to high quality to just be a Youtube video(no offence Youtube)
B. Donate the money to a worthy&related issue. Or
C. Buy a new CAR!

I am guessing B, but we will see.

Im interested in this myself.

I dont see how $150k will make a 6 part youtube video series any better, so I am hoping she ends up putting the remaining money into a charity. But like you said, lets wait and see...

 

[PotatoeMan]

If it was biological it wouldn't matter what point in history I picked, as it would be the most common point of view at the time.

I agree that a lot of differences between men and women can be traced back to the hunter (men) and gatherer (women). I would even accept that more women than men are not interested in really advancing that high up in their career. What I don't think is that women can advance as they wish based on their skill. Not based on what I have seen in life.

let also be clear on marketing and purchases. A parent can refuse to buy the horribly sexist toys, but unless they keep their kids lving in the basement it is impossible for them not to be bombarded with marketing. Take a look at commercials. I mean really look. Past the product. See what message they seem to send.

My previous post explained why fewer women want to focus on their career based on a case study of what people want. Your response is that you feel that it is down to social expectations. If through evidence I can?t convince you your preconceptions based on personal experience are wrong I?m not going to change your mind.
As for marketing it?s a filthy business but unless people vote with their wallets nothing will change.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

Also lol @ people who don't know that making a high-quality web series ACTUALLY TAKES TIME AND MONEY

Maybe we should ask MOvieBob how much the Escapist pays him every week? Is it a full time job?

 

[yeti585]

A bad choice of words on my part. I didn't mean that the issues were in conflict. It is not really a separate issue either. It's still sexism but its sexism against males. So it's a different area of a problem.

I don't believe that. I believe that most gender-specific problems that men face are largely self-inflicted. Besides, I don't believe that Markus Fenix is meant to embarrass you for looking like a wimp. He's actually embarrassing because he's a 2-dimensional snarling caricature and this is apparently what Epic Games thinks we as an audience idolize, meaning they think we're all a bunch of know-nothing 5-year-olds. They don't think we're stupid because we're men. They just think we're stupid.

What gender-specific problems that men face are "largely self-inflicted"? Where did the Markus Fenix example come from? and what is the point of it? Okay so Markus isn't meant to embarrass me because he is big-strong-manly-man. He's a two-dimensional character but that should only embarrass Epic Games because they lacked the skill/resources/other to write a good character. How does that show Epic Games thinks that we are stupid?

 

[lacktheknack]

I totally heard that he said "big boob ninja party 12"
to me, sounds a lot marketable than "big boob ninja panty 12"

Big Boob Ninja Party doesn't have enough panties in it. Unless you download the On Campus DLC, which happens to throw in a token "nerdy" ninja to appeal to a greater audience (who also has big boobs... and panties).

 

[Sutter Cane]

Big Boob Panty Ninja 12 will never be as good as Big Boob Panty Ninja 7: Mystical Chainmail Thong.

Honestly Big Boob Panty Ninja 64 is still probably my favorite in the series. It's frankly astonishing how well thy handled the jump to 3D

 

[ad5x5]

This is just not an issue - characters which need saving or need to be related to have to be attractive or at least non-descript, otherwise it breaks the immersion.

I'm confused. You're saying I can't relate to someone unless I want to fuck them?

I'm saying that immersion/relation works better when the character represents you/an ideal. most people don't view themselves as unattractive. Ergo, most characters in games are not going to be unattractive.

Would you fight your way through hordes/crawl through dungeons/other difficult trials to rescue/free/avenge someone who looked like they'd gone ten rounds against someone armed with an ugly stick?

If it was my brother or sister? Or my parent? Or my mentor? Or my best friend? Yeah. Wouldn't you?

The example I was thinking of was a love interest (maybe should have been clearer). Love interests tend to be more common as a target for rescue as it will appear to a broader audience.
Don't think I'd do those things for a mentor though...

 

[Blade_125]

How about a world were men can be trusted no to rape a woman because they see some hair or ankle and women are judged by the skill they bring to the job/issue/whatever and nothing else.

In order for that to happen you need to be aware of the problem. There is no "here is the way to fix this problem" solution aside frmo education and changing the perspectice of people. Bob's episode is a great example of this solution, so I completely disagree with your statement. If one young boy starts to question why he thinks less of women then this video was a success.

Unfortunately, awareness of the problem will not make the problem go away. Rape is not a human exclusive issue. It's been documented in primates and other animals so it's been around for a long time. Sitting around talking about how women shouldn't be sexually appealing wont fix that issue.

Women and Men are hard wired to find the other sexually attractive. You can bind your breasts, change your voice, your cloths, and look like a man and some how some way some man will find your irresistibly sexually attractive. Bobs argument falls flat because it ignores that simple little truth. I could replace every game character with flat chested tom boys and Bob would be making the same irrational argument.

I meant to let this thread go, but I couldn't let this one go without commenting, since you have completely missed my point.

First off, comparing humans and primates is not valid. Even though we share a common ancestor, that doesn't make us all that similar now. A species that can produce cognitive thought can make ethical decisions. When a society says it is the womans fault that she was raped what mesage does that send to the men? It isn't about finding someone attractive. I am married and will still pause for a glance at a woman I find attractive. I also control myself. I love my wife and don't want anyone else.

Talking about the issue is how we fix it. The whole issue is the view society has. If women are looked at as second class citizens then they will be treated as such. If society looks at them as equals then they will be treate as such. The key is to change societies views. That is what you don't seem to understand. It is also why Bob's video, the feminist frequency video's and others are good things. They make people like you and I question how we treat women.

If you have a better idea on how things change please share it with the rest of us. If it is a mind blowing idea then I will fight with you to implement it.

 

[Fearless Ferret]

I just have to laugh that on page 3 someone has a username of CrazyGirl and calls herself sane in the post. I am sure she is, it was just funny

 

[Hollyday]

Seconded! This and Jim Sterling's article on the subject: http://www.gamefront.com/misandry-in-videogames-oh-grow-the-f-k-up/ really make me feel less disgusted with the internet

Read the comments, the disgust will come pouring back

Ugh you're not wrong. No more 'Tropes vs...' threads for me - I haven't got the energy to remain this angry 24/7.

 

[CommanderKirov]

150.000 Dollars for a youtube webshorts series.

Yep, sure sounds reasonable.

 

[PotatoeMan]

The key is to change societies views.

Who decides what?s acceptable? Most organisations with opinions on society are not elected and are self appointed guardians of their own moral values.

 

[Kuth]

"Society judges women based on their appearence rather than their ability"
[...]
If you really want to get to the root of the problem, ie, why women have their general value based on the exterior, is to ask the right question.

Is it ONLY because society and heterosexual white males judge them by their appearence
OR
could it be the fact that some women really don't help that problem at all by simply, oh i dunno
PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS IF THAT IS ALL THEY HAVE TO OFFER

[...]

Too often do women expect to get handed everything and not be judged by their ability, because they think their appearence is enough.
So both parts imo have to do their parts in the sense that

Some women need to stop focusing on their appearence and using that as an excuse to
get what they want, and also stop presenting themselves as if the appearence was the most important thing to them.

This may be because I am in the middle of my stressy exams right now. But this is probably the most hurtful and misogynistic thing I have heard all day. So.. what you are saying here, is that because women tries to adhere to societies ideals, and standards for what they should look like, that they are essentially, asking for it?

I hope that is not what you are saying.

So, because I chose to get a wax? My opinion is suddenly invalidated? Because I wear makeup every day, I can't comment on the issue of the sexualisation, and dehumanization of my gender? I understand that you see a woman trying to follow the standards that society have put up for her, and at the same time protesting them, as a hypocritical act.

But ugly women are not treated kindly, not by their peers, not by their male colleagues. Males always, as in the example with the female politician mocked by males for her looks, in some way assign women value through their sexual appeal. And that is no matter what intellectual feat they have preformed.

And as a woman? you can be damn sure that it is a factor I take into account when i get my job interviews, start at a new school or workplace, or even when I leave my damn house.

It is a part of me that is constantly judged every where I go, where ever I turn I will get judged for my sexual appeal, and I will be assigned a value because of it.

A woman can preform an intellectual feat, but if she don't look good doing it, men don't give a damn.

It's not wise to lump the entire male sex into one opinion, Skrableren. Monoxeroth has a point that many Women do embrace stereotypes of women. Fashion, aperances, etc. These things are enjoyed and embraced by many women. The same can be said with women who are against such ideas as make-up. The same can be said for those who base women off their skill rather than beauty. There will be men who will do either or in the work force.

That does not mean I am implying it's not an issue, however to lump it as an absolute that 'ALL men base women off looks.' is stupid.

Is it right for women to have men buy them things? One would say that a man buying something for a woman is a Gentlemen act, a Feminist would say that man is acting like a traditionalist, others would say the guys just bought the woman something and not think about it. Is it right for a woman to take things from other men, when she is single, even if she is not being actively flirtaous?

Women have been given different rights and entitlements as men, and men have never had those rights or entitlements.

Women and Children first off the ship first.
No obligation to be in the military, or the draft.
Higher chances of keeping their own children after divorce. I can go on about the rights that women have and are not even aware of them.

Now let's go back to your beauty remark. Is it fair? No, it isn't. A woman is ugly to society will not get all the nice perks, remarks, or respect then what a beatiful woman will get. Those things are standards we, as a culture, have expected it to be. It's not fair or right. Sadly men are under their own their own standards that we must obey. The two major aspect of men are sex and power.

Men are supposed to have an aplha male drive. To be strong, and overcome all others. We are obligated to either be skillful in something or be strong physcally. If we have neither these things, a man is deemed useless. He may be a nice person, but if he does nothing in terms of work, skill or anythig production. A woman can be accepted for having no skill, as long as she is pretty.

Sex to men is very important. If a man does not have sex, the culture laughs at the person. It is to be expected that males get laid or be deemed a loser, the 40 year old virgin is a nice example. A Woman can be a virgin for longer because most people are not going to ask if a woman is one or not, thus a veil of cultural protection. Men talk about sex, so a man's virginity is questioned and you get a 40 year old virgin crisis where they MUST get this guy to get sex for the sake of getting sex.


Both sexes have standards that we must abide by. It's not fair that we have them, and equality must be the long term goal. Generalizing men or women will not solve this issue, because men and women are all going to agree on it. There must be admittance to both sides have reinforced stereotypes and figure out a way to eliminate them.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

GWW is a dyed-in-the-wool anti-feminist and MRA blogger, who has regularly written columns at A Voice for Men - a site which has been identified by the Southern Poverty Law Center as one of "hundreds of websites, blogs and forums dedicated to savaging feminists in particular and women, very typically American women, in general." [http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites]

Under no circumstances should she be taken as a credible or impartial spearker on gender issues.

-m

Also fair to note who else they consider hate groups (like Fathers and Families), while accepting money from RadicalHub, home of "let's kill or castrate most of the men!"

AVfM isn't exactly a nice site, but SPLC went overboard with their declarations of "anyone who cares about equality from the men's side is a hate group."

From what I understand...this.

I don't(and likely won't) visit the sites, but the hypocrisy of the claim seems to be fairly well established.

 

[CommanderKirov]

Also lol @ people who don't know that making a high-quality web series ACTUALLY TAKES TIME AND MONEY

Maybe we should ask MOvieBob how much the Escapist pays him every week? Is it a full time job?

Please don't tell me you believe they pay him 150k for 12 episodes. Noone gets payed that much for such amount of work.