The Big Picture: With Great Power

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Yuuki

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Mar 19, 2013
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uro vii said:
Well I disagree with you here, especially on this idea white knighting, which is an utterly lazy excuse, but I'm not arguing about the validity of her views here. The fact of the matter is, your idea that she trolled 4chan is just speculation and even if she did, she received threats of rape and assault in retaliation and still does, resulting in her having to moderate her youtube comments and such. That is revolting, whether you agree with her not.
Wait a minute, someone who went out of her way to criticize some of gamer culture's most celebrated games as being inherently sexist/offensive received threats of rape and assault from anonymous nobodies on the internet? Let me guess, is that supposed to make her case special? Somehow "extra" revolting?
Right at the very moment I'm typing this there is someone yelling rape/assault threats at somebody else on the internet. The reason Anita's case got so much attention is because she took many screenshots/samples of the troll posts, made presentations out of it, did sob-story talks on the pretenses of "omg I'm a victim, look at me cry, help meeeee", etc etc. Attention granted, $160,000 raised. Some people might be genuinely revolted by rape/assault threats thrown over the internet, but the way Anita used all that to play as the victim and use white-knighting simply a tool to her advantage (while smiling behind everyone's back) is vastly more revolting.

But I guess it worked because the whole issue got a thousand times more attention that it deserved, instead of being just another nobody-feminist whining in the dark unknown corners of the internet she got the spotlight, mission accomplished.
I'm not against criticism or free speech - everyone has a right to criticize and express their opinion about anything. The problem is when that opinion gets given far too much weight (and ultimately resources) than it deserves and gets popularized through the roof for no bloody reason. Despite all that I still believe all her work will be forgotten within a a year.
 

j1015

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One of the best episodes you've ever done. I'm with you, but it seems, from reading many comments, that you have your work cut out. I'm seeing a lot of denial and focusing on the minutia of the episode instead of it's broader theme and main point. *Sigh*
 
Jul 13, 2010
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Gindil said:
And so do men when 4chan targets a site. And when she puts out tweets basically yelling at people to aim at her, I don't buy her argument that she's a victim. I buy more that she would "selectively edit" those comments so that she could show how they made her money. And no, you can read the comments yourself and they say that the trolls came from /v/. Given her degrees in communications and marketing, I don't see a good reason NOT to troll these communities and manipulate them for private profit on her part. It worked for EA in the Jennifer Halperin case and it sure worked for her.

And if you didn't know, she was moderating her Youtube BEFORE she ever announced a Kickstarter. Now she just closes it altogether so she doesn't deal with criticism.
Well first of all, that is entirely based on the assumption that her only goal is profiteering, which I don't at all buy. Secondly I would need you to direct me to an example of a man getting hundreds of threats of rape, murder and assault for me to believe that, but even so, the fact that they are willing to treat other people like this doesn't at all negate my point of how utterly repulsive major parts of nerd culture has become. I didn't know about her youtube moderation policy, but that doesn't really change anything.

Yuuki said:
Wait a minute, someone who went out of her way to criticize some of gamer culture's most celebrated games as being inherently sexist/offensive received threats of rape and assault from anonymous nobodies on the internet? Let me guess, is that supposed to make her case special? Somehow "extra" revolting?
Right at the very moment I'm typing this there is someone yelling rape/assault threats at somebody else on the internet. The reason Anita's case got so much attention is because she took many screenshots/samples of the troll posts, made presentations out of it, did sob-story talks on the pretenses of "omg I'm a victim, look at me cry, help meeeee", etc etc. Attention granted, $160,000 raised. Some people might be genuinely revolted by rape/assault threats thrown over the internet, but the way Anita used all that to play as the victim and use white-knighting simply a tool to her advantage (while smiling behind everyone's back) is vastly more revolting.
As I stated above, I never said she was a special case and I think it speaks perfectly to my point about how sad the state of the community is when the reaction is that it's okay to threaten her with rape because that's just how treat everyone. I mean really, your last sentence is utterly ridiculous. Seriously, playing victim is more morally repulsive than threatening rape? I'm sorry but that just blatantly wrong.
 

Yuuki

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uro vii said:
I mean really, your last sentence is utterly ridiculous. Seriously, playing victim is more morally repulsive than threatening rape? I'm sorry but that just blatantly wrong.
You make "threatening rape?!" sound like a big deal but forget that it means absolutely nothing when it's coming from internet anons who barely even know what rape is.
Someone says "i hope u get raped" to you on the internet, you are 100% sure it has no possibility of happening, you are 100% sure it's nothing more than some angry kid who disagrees with your stuff and can't formulate a proper argument. So what did Anita do? Took screenshots of that comment (and similar), went to the media and began a river of fake tears crying "Look at this! This is how EVERYONE in the world has responded to me, they all...they all...*sob* hate me! I am...so hurt! *sob*."

Bam $160,000 granted. A grand total of two videos made in a span of 14 months.

Sorry but that is vastly more repulsive than empty threats coming from internet anons.
 

Gindil

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uro vii said:
Gindil said:
And so do men when 4chan targets a site. And when she puts out tweets basically yelling at people to aim at her, I don't buy her argument that she's a victim. I buy more that she would "selectively edit" those comments so that she could show how they made her money. And no, you can read the comments yourself and they say that the trolls came from /v/. Given her degrees in communications and marketing, I don't see a good reason NOT to troll these communities and manipulate them for private profit on her part. It worked for EA in the Jennifer Halperin case and it sure worked for her.

And if you didn't know, she was moderating her Youtube BEFORE she ever announced a Kickstarter. Now she just closes it altogether so she doesn't deal with criticism.
Well first of all, that is entirely based on the assumption that her only goal is profiteering, which I don't at all buy. Secondly I would need you to direct me to an example of a man getting hundreds of threats of rape, murder and assault for me to believe that, but even so, the fact that they are willing to treat other people like this doesn't at all negate my point of how utterly repulsive major parts of nerd culture has become. I didn't know about her youtube moderation policy, but that doesn't really change anything.
It's pretty obvious that she was profiteering. I can't find the 4chan archive since it's been so long, but I can show how she works* and operates** while also showing how she spammed 4chan*** and caused the drama to unfold for her own profit motive****.

And just because someone says hurtful things to you, it doesn't mean you should make some extremely negative videos that look to provoke the audience. Just sayin.

Yuuki said:
Wait a minute, someone who went out of her way to criticize some of gamer culture's most celebrated games as being inherently sexist/offensive received threats of rape and assault from anonymous nobodies on the internet? Let me guess, is that supposed to make her case special? Somehow "extra" revolting?
Right at the very moment I'm typing this there is someone yelling rape/assault threats at somebody else on the internet. The reason Anita's case got so much attention is because she took many screenshots/samples of the troll posts, made presentations out of it, did sob-story talks on the pretenses of "omg I'm a victim, look at me cry, help meeeee", etc etc. Attention granted, $160,000 raised. Some people might be genuinely revolted by rape/assault threats thrown over the internet, but the way Anita used all that to play as the victim and use white-knighting simply a tool to her advantage (while smiling behind everyone's back) is vastly more revolting.
As I stated above, I never said she was a special case and I think it speaks perfectly to my point about how sad the state of the community is when the reaction is that it's okay to threaten her with rape because that's just how treat everyone. I mean really, your last sentence is utterly ridiculous. Seriously, playing victim is more morally repulsive than threatening rape? I'm sorry but that just blatantly wrong.
You're acting as if she is just because she received rape threats and antagonized 4chan to serve her purposes. No one would have cared about her kickstarter if she didn't manipulate people in the first place. That's the problem here. You claim that she got nothing but rape and death threats. Prove it. I saw her posts. Most were negative criticisms, not an overabundance of rape and death threats. Hell, George Zimmerman got death threats on a larger scale. I could have sworn the first rule of the internet was "Don't feed the trolls" which she didn't do until it served her more money.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI

** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpFk5F-S_hI

*** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlNm4lWKoPs)

**** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lgu5G8Fdp0
 

Coreless

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Oh...Movie Bob, why do you continue to associate yourself with nerd culture? Why on earth would anyone want to be associated with it is today is beyond me. Nerd culture is dead and has been a reeking corpse for a decade now, once it went mainstream it was pretty much a dead man walking. Seriously, just let it go, it hasn't been the nerd culture you remembered it to be for a long time now just let it go. Walk your own path and leave nerd culture to the cesspool of hate and anger it has become.

In the words of Kirk...

 

Strazdas

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May 28, 2011
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Broderick said:
I am not a fan of the lady, but the amount of vitriol she received was horrific. I do not see how pointing this out suddenly makes his whole video worthless when that was part of the point he was making. He was saying that we, as a collective(not individual) have the power to change what is socially acceptable within society today. Whether that is true for the whole of society(as he seems to suggest) is yet to be seen, but within the gaming community it rings true.

By choosing to block and shun people on games who exhibit nasty behavior(rage issues, unnecessary swearing, racism/sexism and downright asshattery) we send a message to those people, and that message is saying that we do not want to associate with them. One person doing this on their own has little effect, however, doing this en mass as a collective has the potential to make a substantial difference.
He was not pointing out the amount of attacks she recieved (and i agree there should have been no unonstructive attacks liek that, though she does deserve quite a lot of criticism), he was pretty much holding her up as an example of "doing what we all should", which makes him glorifying her as oppsed to the rest of geekdom.
Yes, we as a colelctive have the power to change things. but he does not seem to realize that "geeks" are no longer a single community, but are consistent of two large communities, the geeks that were geeks before it was cool, and geeks that are doing it jsut because its cool, and they fight eachother. what is worse, is we got first group growing up in the world where second group is mainstream and they are torn between the two groups. essentialy we as a collective first of all need to be a collective to have the power. we dont. just because you won one battle does not mean the war is over.
we ALREADY DO shun people who exhibit nasty behaviuos. thing is, most of them come from the second group - those who pretend to be nerds just because it is cool. very few of those nasty behaviuos come from the nerds that are nerds who were nerds before this whole thing blwe up. essentially he is attacking a wrong part of community.
we already tried to send a message that we do not want to be associated with them. remember the "fake girl gamer" and its fallout? of course that was more directed at females then, but same applies to fake make gamer. gender is not the important part, its the "Fake" part thats important here. its jsut that it was easier spotted in a girl because the fake boy gamers have already managed to infiltrate into the mainstream gamer.
if we continue to wkr as a community we will end up where we started - a small but tight community that is shun for being different. because those we shun away, those people who do this nasty things, will be the majority that dictate what is different. they always were. we tried staying away. didnt work. we are trying to embrace them. clearly does not work either, ergo the existence of this video.

wow this ended up longer than i expected.
 
Jul 13, 2010
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Yuuki said:
So someone says "i hope u get raped" to you on the internet, you are 100% sure it has no possibility of happening, it's nothing more than some angry kid who disagrees with your stuff and can't formulate a proper argument - and so you take a screenshot of that comment, go to the media and begin the river of fake tears crying "Look at this! This is how EVERYONE in the world has responded to me, they all...they all...*sob* hate me! I am...so hurt! *sob*.

Bam $160,000 granted. A grand total of two videos made in a span of 14 months.

Sorry but that is repulsive.
I don't want to go to far into this because this discussion isn't about Anita, but firstly I think she was right to call them out like, whatever her intentions were, a reaction like is unacceptable and needs to shown up and addressed. Secondly, she didn't ask for $160 000 she only asked for $6 000 and how the community responded is not her responsibility. I agree that the likelihood of her actually getting raped or assaulted probably isn't influenced much by these reactions, but threatening someone with rape is unacceptable under any circumstances and I certainly wouldn't say she has done anything morally wrong, never mind more morally unacceptable than rape threats. Also, the Sarkeesian detractors are obviously welcome to disagree with the points she puts forward, but can we stop with all this straw man nonsense that so many of you seem determined to use against her, it honestly only detracts from your argument.

Gindil said:
It's pretty obvious that she was profiteering. I can't find the 4chan archive since it's been so long, but I can show how she works* and operates** while also showing how she spammed 4chan*** and caused the drama to unfold for her own profit motive****.

And just because someone says hurtful things to you, it doesn't mean you should make some extremely negative videos that look to provoke the audience. Just sayin.
I don't have time to watch those videos right now, so I'll respond to them a bit later today, but I don't see how she was somehow obliged not to react to people who had treated her like that.

Gindil said:
You're acting as if she is just because she received rape threats and antagonized 4chan to serve her purposes. No one would have cared about her kickstarter if she didn't manipulate people in the first place. That's the problem here. You claim that she got nothing but rape and death threats. Prove it. I saw her posts. Most were negative criticisms, not an overabundance of rape and death threats. Hell, George Zimmerman got death threats on a larger scale. I could have sworn the first rule of the internet was "Don't feed the trolls" which she didn't do until it served her more money.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI

** url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpFk5F-S_hI

*** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlNm4lWKoPs)

**** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lgu5G8Fdp0
No, you've missed my point then. This isn't about Sarkeesian, as much as people seem to be determined to make it so. Whether her actions were just or not doesn't change the reaction she received. Even if you are entirely right and she is just some money grubber, the reaction was unacceptable. If there had been no threats of violence or such and just a pure discussion on the topic, I would have just sat back and watched with interest, but that's certainly not what happened. I also never once claimed that she got only death and rape threats and I would prefer it if you didn't put words in my mouth, but she did get them, and a lot of them. I honestly don't know where to look for examples, but I'll try have some to give when I respond to the videos. Also again, pointing that the culture treats other people this awfully only aids my point of the terrible state it is in right now.
 

runic knight

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A well meaning video, to be sure, but one I feel misses some obvious aspects. And while I can agree and even support the idea of trying to push for change for the better, unfortunately it wont work.

The first, and most glaring issue to address is the idea that we, as geeks and gamers, don't actually have the power. We don't. The very idea that we do is merely illusion in the same way that I am sure the maker of the bell bottoms thought they had power to influence fashion. Right now gaming culture is a glorified fad. A very marketable one, to be sure, but still, a fad.
Think for a moment, what is geek culture's appeal and drive? And how is it treated? You can point to any movie you want and yet so much of it is blatant pandering not because of the culture, but because the culture has money at the moment. Geek culture is very lucrative trade and more and more companies see that and try to market it, but in doing so many fear it will do what such market strategies always do, it will make too much crap, people will lose interest and then geek culture will be dropped for the next brand of fad. In that regard, we don't have the power, we are merely the current target audience and any illusions of power comes not from the culture itself, but our expendable income, at least until the fad fades. Furthermore, with the way the marketing has been going, with all the "broader appeal" and the like, what little influence geeks have as shepherds of the tread is quickly dissipating into the mainstream as the very aspects of the culture that appeal to geeks in the first place are deluded and removed. You can see this in everything from the treads in video games and consoles towards regurgitation of the same crap to D&D and the streamlined gaming.


Another aspect to address is the reason geek culture is prominent now. It wasn't because we, as a subculture and movement decided to push forward. It wasn't because we were growing and ready to step up. If it was, then your video would have been very good. Instead, geeks were dragged into the limelight because of greedy corporate interest, their culture was dissected and examined and marketed, and now they have to fend off attention many probably didn't want, people they might feel are posers and a watering down of what they like to make it have "more appeal" to a "broader audience".

Lets be honest here, geek culture was a patchwork of nerds, outcasts, hobbyists, gamers and social rejects of the mainstream social culture. Part of the way some geeks coped with that was to claim the distance of the subculture from the mainstream as their own. They weren't popular, but damn it, it was a place where they could be themselves and do what they were passionate about, be it comics, books, games, whatever. You start introducing new people into that, and the natural reaction will be to be wary, though all the geeks and like I knew were welcoming if a true interest was shown. The problem with the current trend though is that it isn't that more geeks are introduced, it is a flood of people claiming to be geeks are. Now you have a group who feel that even their safe haven is threatened, and not even by newcomers but fad chasers and posers and opportunists who don't have the same interest and instead just want to change geek culture into what they do like. This is where the divisions formed. Where people started to label others as hard core or casual players. The dudebro gamer. People are wary of new people, but geeks instinctively hate those that are notably different or threaten to change the paradigm, and that is exactly what happened when geek when mainstream. A group feels their culture is being appropriated and right or wrong, you will get a vitriolic response to it.

You said yourself, geek culture is very insular, to the point of racism, sexism and the like. Do you think they pushed to be part of the mainstream when they often exclude others and seem, for the most part, to claim their own excluded status as a mark of elitism and pride? No, many were not ready for this and as a result you get a lot of what you see.
Geek culture is in at the moment because of marketability. Whether or not that lasts, well, that remains to be seen. It certainly has a good chance to last longer, true, but I can't help but think of a lot of this video as a responsibility forced on a people who didn't ask for it on top of a situation pushed on them that they did not want. How many geeks did you know of from 15 years ago would have said they wanted to be pandered to like they were the lowest common denominator and have their hobbies and passions used as the day's fashion? Or have it watered down to appeal to a broader audience?
I keep thinking back to an episode of The Simpsons where they go to Australia. In the very early part of it, they mention the Dundee effect, where the culture was latched on to, appropriated, and then left. Source of the thought aside, so much of what I see in geek culture feels like pandering and manipulation and it seems that making it mainstream has actually done more harm for the subculture then good. Like child-actors, the geek subculture wasn't ready for the attention or expectations, the scrutiny nor the benefits. Little wonder it has torn and split in the ways it has.


I do think that as a culture, geeks can and should be better then they are portrayed of late. They should be more inclusionary, more accepting and ethical in how they handle things and how they police their own. We are outsiders, many of us, but we are still good people and we should show that. However, I can not expect the overwhelming majority of any culture to react well to how the geek culture is treated. The Rap subculture reacted in a similar way, did they not? Posers and hatred and the like. I will not excuse those that share geek culture for being asshats, and I will do what I can to curb their actions and call them out for it. But I can and do empathize with their point of veiw.
 

Imp_Emissary

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Father Time said:
Imp Emissary said:
2. If all you have to do to be a "white knight" is say Anita's name, then I think that covers everyone on the internet.(side note: That explains why some people are trying to not say her name though. ;p)
To be frank anyone who acts like Anita only got slack because she was a women (or because she was a feminist) is either highly delusional or a 'white knight' desperate to seem as feminist and social justicey as possible.


Edit: Oh wait he said it was because she dared to speak out against those issues.

Still BS and he's probably trolling. Seriously how many people have touched upon the Damsel and Distress and scantily clad women in fighting games (her next topic).
Indeed, MANY people have talked about these issues in gaming, and other media. Yet you don't see quite the hate that Anita got when she said she was going to talk about it(keep in mind, she had not even started talking about games at that point, but said she was going to).

One would think(and some would say) that is because Anita says radical things all the time in her videos. I watched those videos to see what all the fuss was about for myself, and I've yet to find any valid examples of this complaint. If anything, she is more like Bod said in his critique of the first tropes vs. women video, that is to say very tame, and a bit dry even.

Some people have been saying that they just find the show so far boring, and I guess that is to be expected since they were probably expecting her to be this "radical feminist" that her detractors really want to make her seem to be in there arguments. However, I've found that many of those arguments to be based on either things that she didn't do, or things that she didn't say.

So, she isn't "radical", and she has been saying things most of the gaming community have been talking about(and even joking about) for years, but yet she gets this much hate. That said, I don't think Anita gets this much negative attention because she is female. More likely it is because she presents herself as a feminist. Which brings up another complaint I hear about her. That she only talks about how these kinds of things affect women, and not men.
Again, something that is false.
 

itsthesheppy

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MeChaNiZ3D said:
itsthesheppy said:
Jacco said:
Christ. This was pretty much a sociology class in 6 minutes. I hate those stupid terms like "cisgender" cause it just adds to the idea of difference. If people truly want a unified equal human species, we need to stop making up stupid meaningless terms like that.
Those terms do have meaning to people who are different from you. Accepting that reality and adopting it into your worldview is a big step towards maturity and understanding. Spend less time fighting against that is meaningful for others, and spend more time trying to work those differences in perspective into your overall worldview.
I'm allowed to reject a meaning I don't think needs to exist. Otherwise what do 'man' and 'woman' even mean? Without the assumption that unless you specifically say otherwise, they are as you would expect, they don't have meaning to describe gender. It's a matter of whether you want to use 'cis' and rope yourself into affixing every instance of a gender description with a suffix or just use the standard terms unless you mean otherwise. Why should someone make a word and everyone else be immature for not adopting it, because that person or group finds it meaningful? Can they not be immature for complicating language to pander to their own needs when they could be a little less pretentious and use the words we have? I'm all for describing people as transgendered if that's the case, but cisgender is the status quo, and it is generally understood that that's what you're referring to when you just use the straight term 'man' or 'woman'.
There is a difference between someone who identifies as a man but was born a woman, versus someone who identifies as a man and was born as one. The word "cisgendered" refers to that latter state. Your resistance to the term betrays your resistance to participate in a world where people are identified by terms. It's okay, to you, for some people to be "transgendered". They have a term applied to them to classify them, because they are abnormal. You, however, are normal, and would rather not have a term applied to you because perhaps that challenges your sense of normalcy. You're not "right", you're just part of another group.

Can you not see the strange hypocrisy in resisting a classification, while at the same time applying classification to those different from you? Can you not see how these classifications can help in a world where we are learning (slowly, and kicking and screaming like infants the entire way) that the world is far more full of diversity and difference than we ever imagined? Diversity and difference that we are participants of, however much we'd like to think that we are "normal" and all others are "not quite as normal"?
 

TomWest

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No, people have been saying these tropes are done to death but they don't say it causes harm/sexism in the real world.

Only because it doesn't need to be said (at least to anyone over 15). It's absolutely *basic* psych 101 that common words and images influence behavior.

Our language, our entertainment, our culture all affect how people are actually treated. Whine and complain all you want. Lots of people don't want evolution to be true either.

To go all Godwin, do you think Hitler could have targeted red-heads instead of Jews? Of course not, that's stupid, we all know how Jews were viewed in entertainment, in media, and in culture.

The sexism of video games is obviously *less* pernicious, but to pretend that it has *no* pernicious effects is to be hopelessly naive or to simply to be unconcerned for its effects on half the population.

But hey, you're not the victim. Why should you care?
 

Imp_Emissary

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Father Time said:
Imp Emissary said:
Father Time said:
Imp Emissary said:
2. If all you have to do to be a "white knight" is say Anita's name, then I think that covers everyone on the internet.(side note: That explains why some people are trying to not say her name though. ;p)
To be frank anyone who acts like Anita only got slack because she was a women (or because she was a feminist) is either highly delusional or a 'white knight' desperate to seem as feminist and social justicey as possible.


Edit: Oh wait he said it was because she dared to speak out against those issues.

Still BS and he's probably trolling. Seriously how many people have touched upon the Damsel and Distress and scantily clad women in fighting games (her next topic).
Indeed, MANY people have talked about these issues in gaming, and other media. Yet you don't see quite the hate that Anita got when she said she was going to talk about it(keep in mind, she had not even started talking about games at that point, but said she was going to).
No. She's made a few including one on Bayonetta that she deleted.

That and she already did a series on tropes in movies and TV.

Imp Emissary said:
One would think(and some would say) that is because Anita says radical things all the time in her videos. I watched those videos to see what all the fuss was about for myself, and I've yet to find any valid examples of this complaint.
She took the song all I want for christmas is you and claimed it reinforces stereotypes that all women need is a man. This was a song sung by Mariah Carey and she only sings about what she wants, not what other women might want (and if you listen carefully she never identifies her lover as a man).

Imp Emissary said:
So, she isn't "radical", and she has been saying things most of the gaming community have been talking about(and even joking about) for years, but yet she gets this much hate. That said, I don't think Anita gets this much negative attention because she is female. More likely it is because she presents herself as a feminist. Which brings up another complaint I hear about her. That she only talks about how these kinds of things affect women, and not men.
Again, something that is false.
No, people have been saying these tropes are done to death but they don't say it causes harm/sexism in the real world.
Point one: The Bayonetta video: Fair enough, I remember that one. Liked Bob's more positive take on the game.
Though if I recall, her problem was more with the marketing. The whole strip Bayonetta in the subway thing.

Point two: The Song episode: Yeah, I too thought that the first 4 she talked about in that one were a bit on the weak side. xD That number one though was creepy. Kind of like the very upbeat songs about shootings(Janie's Got a Gun, Pumped Up Kicks, ect)
While you can argue that her interpretation may be a bit off, I don't see how saying a song has a bad message is "radical".

Point three: Other people not saying tropes casues harm/sexism in real life: Funny enough, she hasn't said that in her video either. She did say;

"One of the really insidious things about systemic & institutional sexism is that most often regressive attitudes and harmful gender stereotypes are perpetuated and maintained unintentionally.

Likewise engaging with these games is not going to magically transform players into raging sexists. We typically don't have a monkey-see monkey-do, direct cause and effect relationship with the media we consume. Cultural influence works in much more subtle and complicated ways, however media narratives do have a powerful cultivation effect helping to shape cultural attitudes and opinions."
 

Machine Man 1992

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TomWest said:
No, people have been saying these tropes are done to death but they don't say it causes harm/sexism in the real world.

Only because it doesn't need to be said (at least to anyone over 15). It's absolutely *basic* psych 101 that common words and images influence behavior.

Our language, our entertainment, our culture all affect how people are actually treated. Whine and complain all you want. Lots of people don't want evolution to be true either.

To go all Godwin, do you think Hitler could have targeted red-heads instead of Jews? Of course not, that's stupid, we all know how Jews were viewed in entertainment, in media, and in culture.

The sexism of video games is obviously *less* pernicious, but to pretend that it has *no* pernicious effects is to be hopelessly naive or to simply to be unconcerned for its effects on half the population.

But hey, you're not the victim. Why should you care?
Are you fucking kidding me? Are you seriously comparing overdone tropes, with the goddamned Holocaust? Are you seriously comparing seeing stuff in a movie/game that is offensive to victimhood?

That, sir, is offensive.
 

80sboy

New member
May 23, 2013
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Yeah Bob, nerds are not the same people anymore. Now that they're the majority, they're not the group of lambda lambda lambda you remember from the 80s and 90s - trust me! Being as they are the majority, they're going to take on the vast range of characteristic and outlooks different from what this niche group of people were once like. Another words, do you really see those Xbot Live shit-spewers as nerds too? Really?

And another words:

JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE INTO NERD SHIT DOESN'T MAKE THEM NERDS!



And one final bit of words:

WE DID NOT WIN JACK-SHIT, THE MAJORITY JUST TOOK OVER NERD INTERESTS AND MADE IT A PART OF IT.

Calling them nerds is like calling Avril Lavigne as punk as Sid Vicious was. LoL. Yeah whatever!

:/
 

MeChaNiZ3D

New member
Aug 30, 2011
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itsthesheppy said:
MeChaNiZ3D said:
There is a difference between someone who identifies as a man but was born a woman, versus someone who identifies as a man and was born as one. The word "cisgendered" refers to that latter state. Your resistance to the term betrays your resistance to participate in a world where people are identified by terms. It's okay, to you, for some people to be "transgendered". They have a term applied to them to classify them, because they are abnormal. You, however, are normal, and would rather not have a term applied to you because perhaps that challenges your sense of normalcy. You're not "right", you're just part of another group.

Can you not see the strange hypocrisy in resisting a classification, while at the same time applying classification to those different from you? Can you not see how these classifications can help in a world where we are learning (slowly, and kicking and screaming like infants the entire way) that the world is far more full of diversity and difference than we ever imagined? Diversity and difference that we are participants of, however much we'd like to think that we are "normal" and all others are "not quite as normal"?
Well thanks for the armchair diagnosis, but I'm fine with being defined by whatever terms are necessary and don't need to be considered normal to feel secure. Normalcy or how far I am from it plays no part in this and I harbour no disdain for transgendered individuals. The problem is I'm already quite well-defined by the typical use of the word 'man' - a cisgendered man. I'll get straight to the point - I am resisting participation in a world where the choice terms of minorities have to be taken into account in regular speech where common sense would have sufficed. Is part of your point that even having a state associated with the basic word creates a stigma for those that need extra definition? I disagree. I just think it's easier to say 'man' when you mean a cisgendered man or where specifics aren't important, and don't want to see it become socially mandatory to explain what you mean every time you say 'man' or 'woman'. Something I probably haven't made clear is that in a setting where gender is being discussed or specifics are needed, 'cisgendered' serves a purpose, but not using it shouldn't cause offence in regular communication and the more it is proliferated, the more that will be the case.

I think broadly what we have here is me saying that stereotypes are fine to leave intact if that's what your describing for the sake of ease of speech.
 

klaynexas3

My shoes hurt
Dec 30, 2009
1,525
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Uhura said:
klaynexas3 said:
I can say that we should work on toxicity as a community, but using Anita as an example of unwelcome is a bad example. While she does get sexist comments hurled at her by trolls and the like, there are genuine reasons not to like her, for one that she does take a stance basically saying that any given moment where a women might be shown in any sort of danger is automatically sexist, even if men are in the same said danger, and acts like that that one moment defines that woman and that nothing else she does has any merit.
Except she hasn't actually said that and that's not her stance. What she actually says:
Anita:
When I say Violence Against Women I'm primarily referring to images of women being victimized or when violence is specifically linked to a character's gender or sexuality. Female characters who happen to be involved in violent or combat situations on relatively equal footing with their opponents are typically be exempt them from this category because they are usually not framed as victims.
Look, I understand that not everyone is going to agree with her points or like what she says, but you aren't doing any favors to your argument when you completely misrepresent her points. It just gives an impression that either you haven't actually watched her videos or that you haven't understood what she says.
"The Damsel in Distress trope disempowers female characters and robs them of the chance to be heroes in their own rite." She then goes on to talk about games in which even the female character may have done something good or heroic, but ultimately she defines them as disempowered. That is her talking. It isn't one of her points, it's something she talks about and believes, and is one of the main ways she talks about her points, though those themselves are typically hard to find as she spends very little time on the actual points of her video speeches.
 

NeedsaBetterName22

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Jun 14, 2013
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JimB said:
If you accept the label "geek," then yes, you do take responsibility for the culture. You're a part and a participant, and everything that happens in the name of the geek happens with your enthusiastic support, with your silent support, or because you didn't do enough to stop it from happening. This is the responsibility all of us bear, not in the geek culture but in every culture.
Actually, see, you don't own the term geek. Neither does some vague, mushy, self-constructed arbitrary culture. Geek itself is a purely arbitrary term, one largely based on subjective perceptions. More importantly, just because you share an identifier with someone does not give them any responsibility towards your actions or behaviour. Even with more properly defined identities this logic does not fly. If I am a Canadian, and part of Canadian culture, my fellow Canadian murdering someone is not partially my responsibility for preventing it. That act did not occur with my 'silent support', it occurred as an action of an individual. You and I are individuals, we act based on autonomous decisions, not some groupthink, so any attempt to correlate a collective group with the actions of individuals is laughable philosophically unless there is a centralized root actively dictating this behaviour through coercion (such as a state or theocratic church). This is NOT a responsibility for all of us to bear, it's an arbitrary social construct to encourage tribalism.

I mean, with nonsense collectivist arguments like that 'geek culture' still needs to defend itself from the accusations of practicing Satanism via D&D and causing school shootings via violent media from the arbitrary cultural perceptions of outsiders.