The Big Picture: You Are Wrong About Sucker Punch, Part Two

[Th37thTrump3t]

I have to agree with Bob. if this film was supposed to deliver a message of some sort, then why did "nobody" get it? It was just poor delivery.

Maybe we weren't supposed to get it. Maybe the producers made the movie to such a way that they knew most people who watch it would not get it so that said producers could just sit there and laugh at our stupidity. DUM DUM DUMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

 

[yeel]

For me, if its the girls fantasy (nazi thing, dragon etc) why are they still wearing sexualised clothing? Its their choice to do that, its their fantasy, not mens fantasy. The director sucked at it, if you are correct, because you cant direct a movie full of overly sexualised characters, market it and sell it that way and then make it against those things.

Seconded. Combined with my sentiment that Zack Snyder has never shown that he is clever enough to have thought to frame the movie as a "You guys should be ashamed that you like all this" sort of way that Bob mentions in Part 1


OT:

While I would allow for the possibility in a better movie that their sexualized costumes in the fantasy world (a world which they created to escape the sexual nightmare of their reality) are a way for them to try and reclaim their sexuality in a manner that works for them...that's far from how it comes out in the film. There are PLENTY of scenes we could all point to and think "Fanservice!!" because of how over-the-top they are in that regard, or because it's super obvious that the scene was made for guys to think the characters were cool/sexy, rather than because the characters would think this was cool. (I'll point out here that at no point in the entire film, as far as I remember, do any of the female leads indicate that fighting or sci-fi/fantasy worlds are things they personally enjoy and would fantasize about, and that therefore Snyder gives us no reason to assume there was any reason to have them doing so other than because he thought it would look cool/he decided to try for symbolism using things he finds are a good form of escape, but which aren't shown to be what his CHARACTERS find are good forms of escape. Which, you know, kinda undermines the whole "Look at how clever this movie is!" argument.) Etc, etc.

Now I'm not going to rule out the possibility that Snyder was trying to go for something deep and is just too bad at writing/making original films to be able to pull that kind of thing off, but I say you're trying too hard if you insist that it's all there and that everyone who doesn't see it simply doesn't get it. There's plenty in that movie to indicate something different happened.

Hold on let me get this straight, bob admits that there are problems with the movie, and says he doesn't blame people for not liking it (so long as they understand what the movie was trying to accomplish), and people are attacking him in this thread for supposedly saying that if you didn't like the movie you're wrong, despite the fact that's nearly the opposite of what he said at the beginning of part 1.

What do you people want from him?

He can change his crappy titles, for one...

Maybe "You guys should be ashamed that you like all this" is a bit too strong wording of the makers intent and more moviebob's intent to stir things up a bit; well in line with his choice in titles.

Though after seeing this second part, I have to admit i now do believe this probably was the intended message of the film.
(A reversal to what I said in my post in respons the first part: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.387238-The-Big-Picture-You-Are-Wrong-About-Sucker-Punch-Part-One?page=12#15480101)

I didn't get the movie but I did enjoy it. What does that make me? Is it really wrong to watch good looking girls in sexy outfits kick ass. Maybe in some way it is, I can kinda see where they're coming from.

 

[SnakeoilSage]

Just the same, the fact that someone had to spell it our for the rest of us proves that the sucker punch-line wasn't a very good one.

 

[GloatingSwine]

So the "Sucker Punch" to this series is that Zack Snyder is exactly as terrible as we all thought he was?

 

[Howling Din]

My interpretation: Sucker Punch is very good because there is a lot about it to think about. The material itself is not as important as what it meant to you.
I found it to be enjoyable, but also evil and debilitating. I mean, they all died for crying out loud! Moviebob is an intelligent guy, but he takes death way too lightly. The despicable rats in the movie are, indeed despicable rats, but they're also depicted as powerful, and significant. What the girls did to distract them was contemptible, but it was also necessary, they did it to escape, to survive. You do what's necessary to survive, it's common battlefield tactics, nothing to be ashamed of. But they failed, despite their struggle they all died except the coward. Now I'm getting to what's so evil and debilitating about it. Not that their efforts to escape weren't enough, but that they weren't trying as much as they could have. If someone imprisoned me, abused me, and held my life at their mercy I wouldn't resist them as half-arsed as they did in Sucker Punch. I wouldn't waste my time being afraid of them, I wouldn't stab once. then run. I'd defeat them, no, I would kill them. in every possible way. I'd put them at my mercy. Then snap every bone in their bodies one at a time. I'd peel the flesh from their bone, cut off all of their non-vital appendages and leave them on the floor to die like the insignificant dogs that they are.
Then I would forget them, and move on with my life. A life I would still have because I showed no mercy, no hesitation.

Oh, right, there's also that gender issue thing. It's not important. You could swap the gender of every character in that film and while it would be much less realistic, it wouldn't be any different. Victims are victims and malefactors are malefactors. It's pathetic when anyone ever prejudges another human being based on something they were born with, like gender. But what's even more pathetic is when decent people actually go out of their way to debate them as though it were an issue. The issue is that we think there's an issue, when really it's just jerks being jerks and simpleminded people overreacting to the jerks.
I don't want to have to clarify to all the idiots out there that this is just my opinion.
So I won't

 

[Trishbot]

I have no idea what message Sucker-Punch was trying to say, how it was trying to say it, who it was saying it to, who was even saying it, why they were saying it, or why I should care that they were saying it.

It could've been clear as day, but the lackluster acting, nonsensical action fantasies (robots? Samurai with machine guns?), dour and depressing presentation, and awful pacing robbed the movie of any vitality, passion, joy, fun, or coherence it might've once had.

 

[Uberpig]

I'm wrong about Sucker Punch, am I? I don't even have an opinion about it, how can I be wrong?

 

[daibakuha]

snipped out pedantic image

I just happen to think there's a difference between simply having a message as opposed to it serving a bloody point IN the story.

An image, how quaint.

And if you had any actual education in film you would know the story always serves the message, not the other way around. In the case of Sucker Punch it does.

 

[daibakuha]

No I wasn't Bob: I thought none of what happend actually mattered in the end and it turns out I was right.

It's a good thing you aren't a film critic, because you suck at film analysis.

Give 'em a break, most people suck at analysis of every kind...especially introspection.

The only reason I didn't was because even after both of these videos he still refuses to acknowledge any other opinion than his own.

Isnt he? The fact he disagrees with Bob's opinion implies that he does acknowledge others opinions. It just so happens he is falling into the, "my opinion is FACT" mindset. A shame to say the least, but it is nothing new...

The real question is, why did no one else call him on this BS? When people state shit like this it needs to be called out. Try to elevate the discussion by sorting out the bits that are irrelevant and idiotic.

 

[Username Redacted]

I think that Bob is probably on to something in his exploration of the layers in this movie and while I don't agree with everything he said (and am definitely not going to re-watch this movie to re-evaluate my perspective) in the end I just don't care. A flawed movie can have a message and if that message gets overlooked by (seemingly) a majority of its audience then stuff like this is needed...to a point. My issue is that no amount of deeper meaning, style over substance or is it *cue ominous music*, etc. matters when the movies pacing sucks as much as it did in 'Sucker Punch'.

 

[bigdork]

If you have to explain what something symbolized, it didn't.

 

[TheSchaef]

i was running with the theory that all the girls where some part of babydolls psyche, the entire movie takes place in the half second it took the guy to drive the stake into her head (clearly running on DBZ time) and when the plan starts failing IE girls getting captured or killed, that's the spike sliding deeper into her brain killing them off.

Actually, as much as I liked Bob's breakdown of the movie, I may appreciate this interpretation even more.

It reminds me of the extra layer people added to Inception where the various members of Cobb's team were actually anthropomorphic renditions of the different parts of his mind. I don't know if I personally subscribe to that interpretation of that movie, but I can see strong parallels.

Is this part two in the eighteen part series about why Bob believes that SuckerPunch is the greatest movie ever made in the last 120 years?

I think you're neglecting Scott Pilgrim vs. the World.

So if all these people are supposing that the film takes place in Babydoll's and/or Sweet Pea's psyche, centered around finding freedom of the individual spirit even in the face of a lobotomy, does that mean we're just watching One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest with cosplay babes?

 

[gorfias]

I'm not sure what's worst: having a movie pretty much call me an asshole, or (assuming Bob is correct in his assessment of the film's intentions) the fact that I totally deserved it...

You didn't, and that is the problem.

I think Bob is right on most of his topic. I too, had no interest in being called an asshole by a movie because, gasp, I'm male and attracted to fertile females.

It is true, much about male libido is in need of control, and religion and society work hard at that. But, don't ask us to sit through having our faces mushed in it.

 

[Dastardly]

You Are Wrong About Sucker Punch, Part Two

Spoilers abound in this week's finale to Bob's retrospective on Sucker Punch.

Watch Video

The two most misunderstood satires in quasi-mainstream movies in a long time: this one, and Moulin Rouge.

Moulin Rouge satirizes the whole "love conquers all" motif behind so many garbage movies and songs... and far too many people missed that point, hailing the movie as being oh-so-romantic-I-love-the-music! Basically, the movie makes fun of the very people who like it, and they still like it.

Suckerpunch had the opposite problem -- the people the movie makes fun of don't like it for exactly the reason it was making fun of in the first place.

I'm glad to hear someone else come down in favor of this movie, and for the right reasons. Aaaand I guess if most people were self-aware enough to understand satirical content aimed at them, there wouldn't be much need for the satire in the first place, huh?

(Yeah, I'm in a bit of a mood today. Apologies.)

 

[Webb Myers]

My wife's review of Sucker Punch: "If the story had just stayed in the asylum, it could have been good."

Probably true..."sympathetic, wrongfully imprisoned characters must escape" is a classic. Of course, if they did that, they might have had to explore what got these characters put into an ASYLUM in the first place. It's much easier for the characters to escape into their fantasy worlds than face reality...and that's why they SHOULD be locked up and we (the audience) shouldn't feel any sympathy for them.

 

[Ziggy]

If you have to explain what something symbolized, it didn't.

So much this. In danish we once read a book called "Det Forsømte Forår" (The Lost Spring) which is about a school class during the time where the teachers were allowed to hit the students.
Back to my point, a teacher spent some time analysing the symbol of a tree that stood in front of the school, but when the author was asked about it he said that he never thought about that.

 

[aksel]

The movie is a messy piece of shit, wrapped in a pretty neat-o message.

I didn't even realize some people didn't 'get it' on first watching. And here I was, thinking people just criticized for being shitty.

 

[minuialear]

Maybe "You guys should be ashamed that you like all this" is a bit too strong wording of the makers intent and more moviebob's intent to stir things up a bit; well in line with his choice in titles.

Though after seeing this second part, I have to admit i now do believe this probably was the intended message of the film.
(A reversal to what I said in my post in respons the first part: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.387238-The-Big-Picture-You-Are-Wrong-About-Sucker-Punch-Part-One?page=12#15480101)

I didn't get the movie but I did enjoy it. What does that make me? Is it really wrong to watch good looking girls in sexy outfits kick ass. Maybe in some way it is, I can kinda see where they're coming from.

Well my point re: that comment was more to say that Snyder isn't exactly known for making films that make people think, so I think Bob's desire to see this film as an intelligent self-examining look at sexist/whatever culture that empowers women to take sexuality into their own hands etc etc is just trying to give Snyder too much credit. I think the fact that one could see this film as being very intelligently constructed if they were desperate to have a philosophical/intellectual justification to like the film is an accident, rather than an intended purpose.

Either that or Snyder is just so terrible at writing and directing or so clueless about his own theme that he started out with this interesting idea, and then ruined it by trying to use his typical testosterone-induced aesthetic to make things look cool/sexy/exciting, and in the process destroyed like 50% of the message he set out to impart upon us (which is also possible).

As for your last point, I wouldn't personally say it's wrong to watch the film or too like it (I can see where it can be construed as sexist even despite the fact that Snyder meant it to be empowering, and I can understand why people would like less of these sorts of films to be made); my only beef is with Bob's whole "this movie is awesome and if you don't think so you're wrong and I'm going to keep telling you you're wrong until you get it" thing (he claims he doesn't care if people didn't like it...but considering how much he harps on this film, I'm skeptical). Some of us get it, and still think it sucks; some of us may not get it, but neither of these videos prove that we're "wrong" or that our criticisms aren't valid. Bob needs to get over it.

My wife's review of Sucker Punch: "If the story had just stayed in the asylum, it could have been good."

Probably true..."sympathetic, wrongfully imprisoned characters must escape" is a classic. Of course, if they did that, they might have had to explore what got these characters put into an ASYLUM in the first place. It's much easier for the characters to escape into their fantasy worlds than face reality...and that's why they SHOULD be locked up and we (the audience) shouldn't feel any sympathy for them.

I agree with your wife, though I'd have also been less annoyed at the film even if he had kept the brothel metaphor; I feel that was pushing at the issue I have with the whole film, but didn't annoy me quite as much as those fantasy scenes.

I think the implication as to why they were there was simply that they had wronged men (Babydoll had defied her stepfather to save her sister, for example) and therefore were sent there unjustly. It could just be something I assumed and not something that Snyder even considered mentioning, though. I also agree that there's something problematic to the notion that they use imagination/fantasy to escape reality; although my issue with it has more to do with the fact that this is supposedly a film about empowerment. Although maybe next year we'll get scenes in Man of Steel where Superman has to imagine he's Jesus Christ while he's battling Lex Luthor so that he can feel more empowered to rally against his foe; I dunno.

 

[DTWolfwood]

wow. i'd say my mind was blown but i never attributed that much thought into the movie. So i'd be pretty insincere to say anything other than "Interesting Movie Bob."