The boys club

[s0denone]

Lets stop strawmanning this "teach men not to rape" notion. You know why we have to teach boys not to rape? Because a lot of them think that its fine to put your dick in a girl that is inebriated to the point that they can't think rationally or are asleep. I know because I've taught sex ed to minors because schools are usually both too slow to teach it and too inept and this is extremely common. Nobody ever thinks of this because there is a notion that you yourself just purported, that "only arseholes rape" and that its never the result of ignorance. Thats like saying that nobody ever dies accidentally from getting shot when it happens all the time. Children are very likely to shoot a person accidentally, firearms may discharge if stored improperly, it may discharge if its loaded with faulty ammunition, it may discharge with a faulty trigger and it may discharge if its improperly assembled. When people get killed this way if they're charged with a crime they're charged with manslaughter, not murder, because while the intent is not malicious the end result is the same. People do commit rape without thinking that they're committing rape, and this includes women who believe that they can't rape men because of the technicality that they're not penetrating.

I apologise if this is a classic question, but it is my go-to when we are talking about sex while inebriated:
If you go drive while you are drunk (an irrational decision by any count) you are responsible for your actions and criminally liable... But according to you, having sex while drunk (a decision that may or may not be rational) you are being raped, because you cannot be responsible for yourself?

As a bonus question: What if both parties are drunk? Are they raping eachother?

 

[Silverbeard]

I don't know about your female co-workers, but I'm pretty up-front when it comes to dirty jokes and how I feel about them.

If I hear it and they stop telling the joke because I'm in the room then I tell them it's fine. At that point I make a joke about it, and ask them to carry on. Then again, I say very questionable things at times, so that's hardly an issue.

If it's in a lab and they are older, then maybe...? I would probably ask, honestly. If not, then I would just wait until one of them mentions it. Not ideal, but it's better than getting yelled at. Fucking women, why do they have to go make things difficult?

But that just brings us back to the start, doesn't it? Asking someone 'Hey how do you feel about jokes aimed at the size of your waist?' is not really much better than saying 'Damn, you fat!' The target of the question will likely assume that the only reason I'm asking that question is because he or she is fat.
And this is fine when I say it to a guy; I've mocked my male colleagues for having beer bellies on numerous occasions and they've done that to me too- even though none of us are anywhere near large enough to be considered clinically obese. I'd never consider saying anything like that to a woman, though, for reasons detailed previously and regardless of whether or not they do appear to be clinically obese.
Do women make those jokes amongst themselves? Maybe. I don't 'hang out' with women so I wouldn't know. But it just feels safer to limit my interactions with them and if possible avoid interacting at all- which again brings us back to the start with men acting stiffly and/or actively modifying their usual behaviour around women.

 

[9tailedflame]

Oh sure, there's a difference between harassment and humor, i guess the picture i had in my head was of people having a light-hearted but offensive joke to each other, and some sensitive newcomer overhearing it and getting offended. I guess it sometimes seems like some people want the whole world to have the same social dynamics, and i'm opposed to that concept, but i agree with the stuff you're saying. There's a difference between telling someone something they might not have realized was hurting you and taking offense to something that never involved you in any way and going straight to the managers or boss or whathaveyou without talking to the person.

But Brogan is right. A large portion of this "humour" is simply "lolhomoslur."

Kind of weird that we just had this thread where people complained about how offensive the word "cisgender" was and we're already back to the notion that women and minorities should take a joke, though. If someone were to be making jokes about "straight people humour," or "cis humour" I imagine there'd be a very, very different conversation going on.

...as important a question to ask, I can't help but think this probably isn't the forum to be asking it, given we've already had the 'Women don't want certain jobs, it's not our fault' and 'It's only natural' arguments rear their ugly heads already. Good to see the usual excuses are trotted out despite a woman saying 'yeah it's a thing and it sucks' literally as the first reply.

It's even more baffling because if someone are "naturally inclined" to not take certain jobs, or just don't want them, why do so many women go into school or training for said jobs. Is it like the 80s Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series, where they forgot they were turtles? Do people think they go into these courses, then some programming trips in their head and it's like "oh shit, I forgot, I'm a chick! I hate this stuff!"

Why do women have to be told so frequently what they "don't like" or "don't want" to do? I would think if there was a legitimate natural disinclination, or a legitimate disinterest, it wouldn't need to be so constantly and thoroughly reinforced. I'm reminded of a certain YouTube personality who claims men are naturally more assertive and aggressive, but has repeatedly said he and his girlfriend are trying to break her daughter of the habit of "bossing" people around. I mean, doesn't that little girl know she's naturally less assertive?

I'm not against the word cisgender, just the fact that it's so often used in a slur-like or dismissive manor. And there's a difference between two people making a joke to each other and me just being there, and saying it right to me. If i heard someone say an offensive joke about cis people, but it was just to each other and not me, I'd just roll my eyes, walk the other way, and move on with my life. No HR, I wouldn't try to get them fired or anything, i'd probably just avoid that group of people as best i could. If they went up to me and called me a cisgendered piece of shit who shouldn't exist, I'd probably talk shit back, and certainly report it. The level of direction at me and the level of hostility is the key.

 

[Worgen]

I don't think the overwhelming number of mlp fans are men, I think they just get all the attention since as I said before, its men liking something for women which makes people take note.

No. It is grown men being rabid, obsessed fans of something specifically directed at very young girls that is making "people take note".

First, its not aimed at very young girls, no more than any Disney movie or the aforementioned transformer cartoons. And second there are rabid fans for everything, which I showed you before. So what is your point? Cause so far you just seem wrong.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Actually, about that mnemonic.

It seems like the only kind of "Teach men not to rape", that doesn't assume all men are rapists.

I mean it literally says that only Arseholes rape.

Lets stop strawmanning this "teach men not to rape" notion. You know why we have to teach boys not to rape? Because a lot of them think that its fine to put your dick in a girl that is inebriated to the point that they can't think rationally or are asleep. I know because I've taught sex ed to minors because schools are usually both too slow to teach it and too inept and this is extremely common. Nobody ever thinks of this because there is a notion that you yourself just purported, that "only arseholes rape" and that its never the result of ignorance. Thats like saying that nobody ever dies accidentally from getting shot when it happens all the time. Children are very likely to shoot a person accidentally, firearms may discharge if stored improperly, it may discharge if its loaded with faulty ammunition, it may discharge with a faulty trigger and it may discharge if its improperly assembled. When people get killed this way if they're charged with a crime they're charged with manslaughter, not murder, because while the intent is not malicious the end result is the same. People do commit rape without thinking that they're committing rape, and this includes women who believe that they can't rape men because of the technicality that they're not penetrating.

Ignorance?

IGNORANCE?!?

Please, stop diminishing this horrible crime.

Rape isn't something, someone does by accident because of ignorance.

 

[Nemmerle]

It's rather unhelpful to phrase any debate about social education as 'teaching $group not to rape.' Unfortunately that seems to be the terms that the whole situation gets phrased in, eliciting rather predictable reactions from the group that don't view themselves as rapists.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Actually, about that mnemonic.

It seems like the only kind of "Teach men not to rape", that doesn't assume all men are rapists.

I mean it literally says that only Arseholes rape.

Lets stop strawmanning this "teach men not to rape" notion. You know why we have to teach boys not to rape? Because a lot of them think that its fine to put your dick in a girl that is inebriated to the point that they can't think rationally or are asleep. I know because I've taught sex ed to minors because schools are usually both too slow to teach it and too inept and this is extremely common. Nobody ever thinks of this because there is a notion that you yourself just purported, that "only arseholes rape" and that its never the result of ignorance. Thats like saying that nobody ever dies accidentally from getting shot when it happens all the time. Children are very likely to shoot a person accidentally, firearms may discharge if stored improperly, it may discharge if its loaded with faulty ammunition, it may discharge with a faulty trigger and it may discharge if its improperly assembled. When people get killed this way if they're charged with a crime they're charged with manslaughter, not murder, because while the intent is not malicious the end result is the same. People do commit rape without thinking that they're committing rape, and this includes women who believe that they can't rape men because of the technicality that they're not penetrating.

Ignorance?

IGNORANCE?!?

Please, stop diminishing this horrible crime.

Rape isn't something, someone does by accident because of ignorance.

I personally know a woman who was raped dozens of times over the course of two years by the same man (her husband.) She finally managed to escape from the relationship. He insists what he did was not rape, and I believe he thinks that is true. He literally sees nothing wrong with what he did.

There are men who believe that in many situations a woman owes them sex. In this case, the husband thought that the woman should give him what he wanted at all times for no other reason than he is her husband. People hide rape behind ignorance all the time. Ignorance of what is rape is a major contributor.

Rape from ignorance happens all the time because people have been convinced that what they are doing is not rape, and we as a society have not corrected and even sometimes propped up that ignorance. It is a willful, selfish ignorance but it is still ignorance.

 

[Phasmal]

And an environment where people seem to have zero empathy or even misplaced anger towards women due to their own baggage.

And if you have an issue with it, it must be a "girl thing."

Which is totally not indicative of the issue.

Eyup, and then prepare to have your own experiences explained to you, because you obviously misinterpreted them.
Hell, I remember on here (aaaaaages ago) talking once about my brother-in-law being kinda sexist one time, and someone immediately sprang to his defence saying I must have taken what he said the wrong way and he probably didn't mean it that way.
I was just kind of like... 'I was there'.

Bit of a strange example, perhaps, but it just came to mind.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Actually, about that mnemonic.

It seems like the only kind of "Teach men not to rape", that doesn't assume all men are rapists.

I mean it literally says that only Arseholes rape.

Lets stop strawmanning this "teach men not to rape" notion. You know why we have to teach boys not to rape? Because a lot of them think that its fine to put your dick in a girl that is inebriated to the point that they can't think rationally or are asleep. I know because I've taught sex ed to minors because schools are usually both too slow to teach it and too inept and this is extremely common. Nobody ever thinks of this because there is a notion that you yourself just purported, that "only arseholes rape" and that its never the result of ignorance. Thats like saying that nobody ever dies accidentally from getting shot when it happens all the time. Children are very likely to shoot a person accidentally, firearms may discharge if stored improperly, it may discharge if its loaded with faulty ammunition, it may discharge with a faulty trigger and it may discharge if its improperly assembled. When people get killed this way if they're charged with a crime they're charged with manslaughter, not murder, because while the intent is not malicious the end result is the same. People do commit rape without thinking that they're committing rape, and this includes women who believe that they can't rape men because of the technicality that they're not penetrating.

Ignorance?

IGNORANCE?!?

Please, stop diminishing this horrible crime.

Rape isn't something, someone does by accident because of ignorance.

I personally know a woman who was raped dozens of times over the course of two years by the same man (her husband.) She finally managed to escape from the relationship. He insists what he did was not rape, and I believe he thinks that is true. He literally sees nothing wrong with what he did.

There are men who believe that in many situations a woman owes them sex. In this case, the husband thought that the woman should give him what he wanted at all times for no other reason than he is her husband. People hide rape behind ignorance all the time. Ignorance of what is rape is a major contributor.

Rape from ignorance happens all the time because people have been convinced that what they are doing is not rape, and we as a society have not corrected and even sometimes propped up that ignorance. It is a willful, selfish ignorance but it is still ignorance.

I do not believe that he thinks that's true.

I believe he's merely trying to justify it. I think it's a cold, calculated attempt to try an shift some blame away from him (and possibly towards a bad childhood).

That shithead wasn't ignorant. At the most he was ignorant about the fact that she'd turn him in.

EDIT:
Actually, what I believe is, his claim of ignorance is merely another effort to mentally terrorize that poor woman.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Well, can't say I'm surprised the direction the thread took here, but I'll try to address the topic the OP came on in.

My girlfriend had a very brief stint in set painting. Absolutely everyone else there was a guy, and in particularly very macho guys who talked about very manly things and were full of bravado. She didn't fit in in the slightest, had nobody to talk to, and with the few people who tried to involve her, they did so in an incredibly condescending manner and she constantly felt talked down to. They were also very dismissive of her role in it, most of them were doing the construction side of things, and none of the men could bring themselves down to the level of doing something as feminine as painting. She decided to quit before the week was over. It was a bad enough experience that it soured her whole interest in getting into that line of work.

What I gather happens a lot in these sort of industries is that a certain type of men tend to dominate it, and it makes it unpleasant enough for different kinds of people that most of them leave it, so the demographics always stay the same. There's an exception if you're a a more masculine woman, if you are really into cars, beer, and don't mind guys making lewd comments about you you'll fit right in and be fine. If you're on the more feminine side you're looking forwards to a lot of difficulties.

How this gets better? I don't know, she was of the opinion that it was bad enough that even the people who tried to make it better for her were inadvertently making it worse with their condescension. I imagine it's not quite as bad everywhere though. I think it'll only really change if the demographics change so that it's not just that the only women who stay in it are those who fit neatly into the boys club. For the time being, you could probably make a world of difference by avoiding condescension, being friendly and trying to navigate towards topics that they can contribute to as well.

But this is all kind of moot since we all know why she really quit. It's because women don't have interest in film or painting or something like that.

 

[Combustion Kevin]

Wanna know something funny about boy's clubs?
They're illegal, It is not allowed to discriminate against women wanting to join your club for their gender.

Wanna know something funnier about girl's clubs?
They're legal, it's totally fine to discriminate against men wanting to join your club for their gender.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

120 students in first year, around 40 girls.

80 students in second year, about a dozen.

35 students in third year, 3 girls.

That's a loss of 85 males to 37 females.

Why did the guys drop? Not boy enough?

Lets do some math, shall we? Now, I'm not sure if the OP meant to say that there are 120 men in the first year and 40 women, making 160 students, or 120 students between men and women. We'll do both then, just in case.

Lets go with that there's 160 students, 120 men, 40 women.

By year two 33% of men and 70% of women will have dropped out.

By year three 71% of men will have dropped out and 92% of women will have dropped out.

The gender ratio went from 3:1 in year one to 12:1 in year three. Using these numbers not only is there a clear disparity but that disparity hit early on.

Now for 120 students total, meaning 80 men and 40 women.

By year two 15% of men will have dropped out compared to 70% of women.

By year three 60% of men will have dropped out compared to 92% of women.

The gender ratio went from 2:1 in year one to 11:1 in year three. Again, a clear gender disparity, and it hit even harder this time.

It's the latter. I fudged up muh reading comprehension. I blame public schools.

Also, insert something here about 'lies, damned lies, and statistics.' The key issue with the above being that you're working with a smaller number of females to begin with, so any change is going to be inordinately affected if you convert that figure into percentages/ratios.

But, really the above means...? What, exactly?

Are you saying that gender disparity is inherently a negative thing? If so, is it still a bad thing when the sex/genders/sexualities/whatever are reversed/flipped/inverted/whatever? Is it a problem in every field where such a disparity exists or is it only certain ones?

Why did the women quit? Why did the guys quit? Do you have any information aside from assumptions?

Note: I'm not discounting the notion of "Boy's Clubs" and "Girl's Clubs" as "things that exist." I'm merely skeptical about attempts to assert that they're just bad by default.

I personally don't see a problem with either since, if you genuinely want to do a job you love, you suck it up and do what it takes to make that a reality.

Yeah, and if you really wanted to be rich and successful you would be rich and successful. Literally the only thing in the way of being a billionaire is you, and nobody has a right to complain about the financial inability to access anything because if they really wanted it they'd have access to it. Parents who are taking care of their child who was paralyzed from the neck down in a freak accident and uses a ventillator to breathe spend a million dollars in care for their child every year, going into massive debt, but if they really wanted their child to live they'd just find a way, right?

Working through a bit of adversity in pursuit of a job you love =/= becoming a billionaire or producing medical miracles through sheer force of will.

I don't appreciate the blatant false equivalence and appeal to emotion with that ventilator nonsense.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

I do not believe that he thinks that's true.

I believe he's merely trying to justify it. I think it's a cold, calculated attempt to try an shift some blame away from him (and possibly towards a bad childhood).

That shithead wasn't ignorant. At the most he was ignorant about the fact that she'd turn him in.

EDIT:
Actually, what I believe is, his claim of ignorance is merely another effort to mentally terrorize that poor woman.

And how about all the people who claim that what he did doesn't qualify as rape? I am not talking about if he was guilty, because that was impossible to prove. I am talking about how the woman describes the circumstance and people bend over backwards to say "that isn't rape!". Because there were a couple dozen of those people.

I know another woman who was raped and the very first thing someone said to her when she tried to report it was "well you shouldn't have been leading him on." Which, shocker, she wasn't.

Ignorance about rape is a real problem. You can believe whatever you want, but people do think these things. Hell, we got s0denone up there making the "but drunk drivers!" argument in this very thread. People will insist that rape isn't rape.

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

I really think that this is going to be a long and painful process before this stops being a problem.

For some reason, some guys feel very weird about the fact that a woman is in their field and doing stuff with them. I understand that it's been a "boy's club" for a long time, but times have changed and they really need to stop making it harder on everyone.

I know for me, I'm really used to being the only girl in a tech crew for sound. I'm used to hearing dirty jokes that it really doesn't bother me anymore, and honestly I think a good chunk of them are funny. I mean, I'm not opposed to a good dick joke.

I know a few times I've been mistaken for the girlfriend of someone in the band, and then watch as they trip over themselves apologizing.

I don't think I'd call it the "last vestige of male productivity", but some times I think it is given how unwelcomed I've felt at gigs. It's really stupid. I have some horror stories.

That said, there are guys out there that do say something when someone is being a dick and saying some real sexist shit. Again, it's going to take some time, and it's going to be super painful. Also, I don't want for guys to interact with woman stiffly and feel like they have to censor themselves otherwise they get shit canned. If the woman on a job is okay with dirty jokes, tell them. If not, don't tell them when she's around. You know, common decency.

I view it as if someone doesn't like it when you smoke around them, you don't. It's also about not being a dick and for some reason it's "okay" when it's something like this. Unfortunately, I've had to work hard to get into the "boy's club", and it's dumb that I know I'm not the only one. I'd like to think that one day we'd all wake up and start treating each other with respect, but then again I'd also like to wake up one day and see a husky pouring a proper Guinness at my beck and call.

So yeah, it's slowly happening, but it's going to get worse before it gets any better. Thankfully, there are dudes that are trying to help out. So, yay!

Well, its not a husky but he poured you a beer.

Hmm...

I may need to... acquire... this dog. >.>

<.<

I don't know about your female co-workers, but I'm pretty up-front when it comes to dirty jokes and how I feel about them.

If I hear it and they stop telling the joke because I'm in the room then I tell them it's fine. At that point I make a joke about it, and ask them to carry on. Then again, I say very questionable things at times, so that's hardly an issue.

If it's in a lab and they are older, then maybe...? I would probably ask, honestly. If not, then I would just wait until one of them mentions it. Not ideal, but it's better than getting yelled at. Fucking women, why do they have to go make things difficult?

But that just brings us back to the start, doesn't it? Asking someone 'Hey how do you feel about jokes aimed at the size of your waist?' is not really much better than saying 'Damn, you fat!' The target of the question will likely assume that the only reason I'm asking that question is because he or she is fat.
And this is fine when I say it to a guy; I've mocked my male colleagues for having beer bellies on numerous occasions and they've done that to me too- even though none of us are anywhere near large enough to be considered clinically obese. I'd never consider saying anything like that to a woman, though, for reasons detailed previously and regardless of whether or not they do appear to be clinically obese.
Do women make those jokes amongst themselves? Maybe. I don't 'hang out' with women so I wouldn't know. But it just feels safer to limit my interactions with them and if possible avoid interacting at all- which again brings us back to the start with men acting stiffly and/or actively modifying their usual behaviour around women.

Honestly, it's not as hard as it seems.

Just asking them about crude humor or jokingly insult humor is probably the best course. Or, even asking about those types of joking around is just better than just assuming either way. They may not be cool with it, and they be. It honestly doesn't hurt to ask. If they bite your head off for even asking then at least you know you don't have to worry about where you stand with them, and just be professional with them and move on.

I know I've worked with some real uptight people and have wondered if they need to readjust their rod every morning. That type of humor is not for everyone, and I know some guys that don't like it since they can take it a little personally. You seem to have a good working relationship with your guy friends, so I don't think it's really needed to have the same thing with your lady co-workers. I know I don't. You can probably have the same amount of fun with them if you just try to joke around with them, or make small jokes.

I dunno. Whatever floats your work boat.

 

[MrFalconfly]

I do not believe that he thinks that's true.

I believe he's merely trying to justify it. I think it's a cold, calculated attempt to try an shift some blame away from him (and possibly towards a bad childhood).

That shithead wasn't ignorant. At the most he was ignorant about the fact that she'd turn him in.

EDIT:
Actually, what I believe is, his claim of ignorance is merely another effort to mentally terrorize that poor woman.

And how about all the people who claim that what he did doesn't qualify as rape? I am not talking about if he was guilty, because that was impossible to prove. I am talking about how the woman describes the circumstance and people bend over backwards to say "that isn't rape!". Because there were a couple dozen of those people.

I know another woman who was raped and the very first thing someone said to her when she tried to report it was "well you shouldn't have been leading him on." Which, shocker, she wasn't.

Ignorance about rape is a real problem. You can believe whatever you want, but people do think these things. Hell, we got s0denone up there making the "but drunk drivers!" argument in this very thread. People will insist that rape isn't rape.

Did she give consent?

Because the definitions is "a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration perpetrated against a person without that person's consent".

And for the purposes of this argument, consent can both be given verbally (also using other words than "yes". "Absolutely", and "I'd love to" would also qualify as verbal consent), and non-verbally (like a nod, or a kiss, or embracing while in the act).

If not, then it is rape.

If she was unconscious, then obviously she couldn't give consent, and it'd therefore be rape.

If she was slightly buzzed, and gave consent, and regretted it afterwards that isn't rape (not saying that, that's what happened. I'm only laying out how I qualify rape).

As for "I am talking about how the woman describes the circumstance and people bend over backwards to say "that isn't rape!"".
I'm going to be absolutely clear here. I usually believe women if they tell me that they've been assaulted (I have no reason not to), however, as a matter of law, everybody is "Guilty until proven Innocent". Now that doesn't mean I believe she's lying about being raped. It means that we're going to have to be absolutely positive that the accused is our guy.

Rape is the worst crime we have in the books. It should never be treated lightly (including, accusing people of rape).

EDIT:
After reading my post I'm going to expand a bit on my qualifiers.

Coerced consent, obviously isn't valid consent either so, if he threatened her to give consent, that'd also be rape.

 

[Nemmerle]

Ignorance?

IGNORANCE?!?

Please, stop diminishing this horrible crime.

Rape isn't something, someone does by accident because of ignorance.

I suspect you underestimate the spread of morals and/or intelligence within society. I, for instance, explained to someone not so long ago why it was not an acceptable course of action to take a baseball bat around to their employer's offices when they were not paid, and that this dispute would be better resolved by phoning the company that they worked for and enquiring about the payroll. That person was not especially stupid, they had simply grown up in an environment where disputes of any significance were resolved more through violence than by discussion. - Where assumptions about reasonable mistakes were liable to get you screwed over.

Some people honestly do walk around with a massive chip on their shoulder thinking that the world owes them stuff. You see them all the time, the dickheads in stores treating employees like crap, the people who think that because they earn more money they're a better class of human, the people who think that because their spouse works in the military they acquire a similar rank.... Heck, I spoke with someone in the last month who thought that it was reasonable not to travel outside of a one mile radius of their home, and that if they refused to do so the state owed them a living.

They're not precisely ignorant in the commonly understood sense of the word, it's not precisely a mistaken belief that one can reason one's way out of with logic, but you can see where people who call them such are coming from and they're lacking in certain experiences.

Though, as I've previously noted, I don't think it's a particularly useful way to frame the discussion to say that one group is being taught not to rape. That's not directly the ignorance at play here. It would probably be a far more productive discussion to say that this is how you can find out whether people are interested in you or not, which I know is a point which many boys wonder about. One imagines people would not be so unhappy to receive some advice if it were framed in a style useful to them, rather than in the sense that they're terrible people who need saving from themselves by the more enlightened and empathic members of society.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Ignorance?

IGNORANCE?!?

Please, stop diminishing this horrible crime.

Rape isn't something, someone does by accident because of ignorance.

I suspect you underestimate the spread of morals and/or intelligence within society. I, for instance, explained to someone not so long ago why it was not an acceptable course of action to take a baseball bat around to their employer's offices when they were not paid, and that this dispute would be better resolved by phoning the company that they worked for and enquiring about the payroll. That person was not especially stupid, they had simply grown up in an environment where disputes of any significance were resolved more through violence than by discussion. - Where assumptions about reasonable mistakes were liable to get you screwed over.

Maybe I do underestimate that.

Maybe, my Danish sensibilities just doesn't translate well to the rest of the world. If that's the case, then I'm sorry if I made an arse out of myself.

Some people honestly do walk around with a massive chip on their shoulder thinking that the world owes them stuff. You see them all the time, the dickheads in stores treating employees like crap, the people who think that because they earn more money they're a better class of human, the people who think that because their spouse works in the military they acquire a similar rank.... Heck, I spoke with someone in the last month who thought that it was reasonable not to travel outside of a one mile radius of their home, and that if they refused to do so the state owed them a living.

No I don't see that kind of people all that much. Again, maybe it's simply because I live in Denmark. And if that's the case, I don't know if I should feel relieved that those people aren't that common where I live, or if I should feel regret that those kind of people are "normal" in countries I'd previously considered civilized nations.

They're not precisely ignorant in the commonly understood sense of the word, it's not precisely a mistaken belief that one can reason one's way out of with logic, but you can see where people who call them such are coming from and they're lacking in certain experiences.

I can see why some people would call that type of person "ignorant", but I maintain that this kind of ignorance isn't the only reason, and that the primary reason would be because these people are shitheads who I doubt would stop raping, even with every educational tool in the box.

Though, as I've previously noted, I don't think it's a particularly useful way to frame the discussion to say that one group is being taught not to rape. That's not directly the ignorance at play here. It would probably be a far more productive discussion to say that this is how you can find out whether people are interested in you or not, which I know is a point which many boys wonder about. One imagines people would not be so unhappy to receive some advice if it were framed in a style useful to them, rather than in the sense that they're terrible people who need saving from themselves by the more enlightened and empathic members of society.

Maybe, but this is more an exercise in PR (but as a concept, I agree with you).

My main issue with the "Teach men not to rape" (besides the PR, as you mentioned), is that it usually also gets brought up by feminists (not all, but enough to make it an issue), who seem to want to diminish rape into merely looking a woman in the eye (or maybe even . Those people I can't abide. Their efforts would only hurt the true rape victims.

Example of such feminists, who apparently want to diminish rape, is in the video below.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, you see, straight cis people are an oppressed class of people because I once saw a trans person venting on tumblr about cis people being assholes to them and gay people won't stop forcing their horribly political agenda down my throat by asserting the fact that they exist.

I laughed pretty hard, then I remembered the number of times I've been accused for pushing an agenda, and now I'm just sad.

Eyup, and then prepare to have your own experiences explained to you, because you obviously misinterpreted them.
Hell, I remember on here (aaaaaages ago) talking once about my brother-in-law being kinda sexist one time, and someone immediately sprang to his defence saying I must have taken what he said the wrong way and he probably didn't mean it that way.
I was just kind of like... 'I was there'.

Bit of a strange example, perhaps, but it just came to mind.

Not sure how strange it is. Well, strange as in unusual. It's weird to me that it's a thing, but this kneejerk response that a guy couldn't have actually been sexist so you must have heard it wrong or you're overreacting (ostensibly based on the totally-not-sexist notion that that's what girls always do) or...something.

Keep in mind, folks, I'm saying it's common. Not that everyone does it, or anything like that.

I personally know a woman who was raped dozens of times over the course of two years by the same man (her husband.) She finally managed to escape from the relationship. He insists what he did was not rape, and I believe he thinks that is true. He literally sees nothing wrong with what he did.

Keep in mind that it was only 1993 when marital rape even became a crime nationwide (as in, all 50 states were on the same page). I don't know the age of the people involved, I don't know what's going on in this specific case, but one reason people are confused on or ignorant of the ramifications of rape instances is that they haven't been treated as rape historically.

And to this and the next post, yeah. It's a very big issue when people are quick to say "not rape."

But to go back to the roots of this, maybe "teach people about rape" would be a better phrase than "teach them not to rape."