The Citadel at the end of Mass Effect 3 (spoilers)

[Woodsey]

Don't know about everyone, but presumably an awful lot of them had been killed when the Reapers started beaming people up.

As for the explosion, that was in Shepard's head.

Yup.

That's all reasonable to assume. However, we don't know either way. The only concrete indication of bad shit going down in the citadel is the pile of bodies when you arrive.

Although it's worth noting that if you choose the control ending (blue cupcake) then the citadel isn't destroyed.

Yet another thing the endings failed to give closure on.

Nope. That "Citadel" was all part of Shepard's Imagination. Those Bodies? Just remember the Collector Ship. The Sky? Citadel from the first game during the end. Also, how did Anderson get there before you when there was only a single way to get to that area? How about the Illusive Man? Also, how did you get injured during the end even though YOU shot ANDERSON?

Its all a part of the Indoctrination.

Either that or they are even worse writers than a fourth Grader hopped up on coke.

This is essentially the view I take it. Its far, far less logical to assume they wrote an ending that was completely contradictory (and lacking in any sense) on multiple levels than it is to believe the Indoctrination Theory, which is balls-deep in evidence.

Its actually ridiculous to not accept the Indoctrination Theory.

 

[BreakfastMan]

This is why I pray that the indoctrination theory is correct.

Just

Keep

Praying

Even if it is not, I am going to believe it anyway. Way more interesting than the ending we got (which could have been interesting if was done in a not crappy fashion). Not the first time a famous sci-fi story has left the story open to that sort of interpretation. In fact, I can think of at least 2-3 previous stories that did that. Implying a sort of "Encounter at Owl Creek Bridge" thing. I actually really like that for some reason.

 

[BreakfastMan]

This is essentially the view I take it. Its far, far less logical to assume they wrote an ending that was completely contradictory (and lacking in any sense) on multiple levels than it is to believe the Indoctrination Theory, which is balls-deep in evidence.

Its actually ridiculous to not accept the Indoctrination Theory.

And IT is way more artistically interesting, deep, and I would even say important, than the ending we did get. :O Did I just go there? Yes, yes I did.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

I'm still holding out on the indoctrination theory.


Please be true.

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaase!

With a cherry on top?

[sub]Please?[/sub]

 

[JediMB]

That was my first question....how did the Illusive Man take over the Citadel when he failed the first time?!?

Apparently, the Citadel takeover attempt by Cerberus was originally going to be in Act 3, but the mission was moved and modified into an Act 1-2 bridge due to time restraints and such.

Which is why all the Citadel war assets turn out to be completely irrelevant, except to boost the Effective Military Strength value.

 

[Zhukov]

[snip]

Nope. That "Citadel" was all part of Shepard's Imagination. Those Bodies? Just remember the Collector Ship. The Sky? Citadel from the first game during the end. Also, how did Anderson get there before you when there was only a single way to get to that area? How about the Illusive Man? Also, how did you get injured during the end even though YOU shot ANDERSON?

Its all a part of the Indoctrination.

Either that or they are even worse writers than a fourth Grader hopped up on coke.

This is essentially the view I take it. Its far, far less logical to assume they wrote an ending that was completely contradictory (and lacking in any sense) on multiple levels than it is to believe the Indoctrination Theory, which is balls-deep in evidence.

Its actually ridiculous to not accept the Indoctrination Theory.

Oh for... people are still throwing that crap around?

The indoctrination theory is bunk for one very simple reason.

They were planning to have a sequence where Shepard would get indoctrinated. There was going to be a gameplay scenario where you start losing control of your character. This is where all the hints and foreshadowing come from. However, they couldn't get the gameplay to work so they scrapped it. This is not rumour. This is information from the developers.

The ending really happened. It is to be taken at face value. It really is that bad. They really did do "worse than a fourth grader hopped up on coke."

 

[Zeraki]

Mass Effect 3's ending just feels like a rushed mess that ignores everything you do in the entire series. The rumor that the ending was written by Mac Walters and Casey Hudson behind locked doors without any input from the rest of the creative team doesn't help them much either.

I envy the people who are capable of deluding themselves into thinking that BioWare had this huge mind blowing indoctrination subplot planned from the beginning, and is going to be giving us the proper endings as free DLC.

 

[Woodsey]

This is essentially the view I take it. Its far, far less logical to assume they wrote an ending that was completely contradictory (and lacking in any sense) on multiple levels than it is to believe the Indoctrination Theory, which is balls-deep in evidence.

Its actually ridiculous to not accept the Indoctrination Theory.

And IT is way more artistically interesting, deep, and I would even say important, than the ending we did get. :O Did I just go there? Yes, yes I did.

Of course, the issue then is that there really is something missing from the ending, but it at least makes what's there pretty fucking intelligent (the way its foreshadowed is, in many ways, reminiscent of the foreshadowing for KotOR's twist).

snip

Right, so they changed it from an actual gameplay sequence into a mostly cutscene one.

Ignoring earlier hints from the series, there's a fuck-tonne in the final 10 minutes.

And even if does all fit perfectly by complete chance, and they wrote the ending whilst they were high as a fucking kite, it still works. Which means that at this point, the author's intent is completely irrelevant.

If the series continues in any capacity from this point and they state otherwise in that, then fair enough, but as it stands the Indoctrination Theory is a completely valid interpretation.

(Although, y'know, its nice to have a link when people say, "THIS DEFINITELY ISN'T A RUMOUR".)

 

[BreakfastMan]

[snip]

Nope. That "Citadel" was all part of Shepard's Imagination. Those Bodies? Just remember the Collector Ship. The Sky? Citadel from the first game during the end. Also, how did Anderson get there before you when there was only a single way to get to that area? How about the Illusive Man? Also, how did you get injured during the end even though YOU shot ANDERSON?

Its all a part of the Indoctrination.

Either that or they are even worse writers than a fourth Grader hopped up on coke.

This is essentially the view I take it. Its far, far less logical to assume they wrote an ending that was completely contradictory (and lacking in any sense) on multiple levels than it is to believe the Indoctrination Theory, which is balls-deep in evidence.

Its actually ridiculous to not accept the Indoctrination Theory.

Oh for... people are still throwing that crap around?

The indoctrination theory is bunk for one very simple reason.

They were planning to have a sequence where Shepard would get indoctrinated. There was going to be a gameplay scenario where you start losing control of your character. This is where all the hints and foreshadowing come from. However, they couldn't get the gameplay to work so they scrapped it. This is not rumour. This is information from the developers.

The ending really happened. It is to be taken at face value. It really is that bad. They really did do "worse than a fourth grader hopped up on coke."

Oh, come on man, have you no sense of fun? Even if it is not what they planned, A: They could still make it that quite easily, and B: It is way more fun to talk about IT. Ridley Scott did not plan for people to interpret Harrison Ford's character as being an android in Blade Runner, but when people embraced that idea, so did he. Stop being such a spoil-sport. You can believe that it was a crappy ending, and I will choose to believe that it was an interesting one.

 

[JediMB]

I envy the people who are capable of deluding themselves into thinking that BioWare had this huge mind blowing indoctrination subplot planned from the beginning, and is going to be giving us the proper endings as free DLC.

If they managed to write in all that stuff that supports the Indoctrination Theory purely by mistake (including the scenes in Vancouver), then I have to be impressed by just how terrible the lead writer is.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

It's what I've been assuming up to this point anyways.

Kelly, Conrad, Bailey, the Council, that teen girl who lost her parents talking to that turian officer on lower levels, EVERYONE on the citadel died horrible deaths when the reapers came to the citadel courtesy of TIM's tipoff.

Kelly was already dead by that point. If you go to visit her after the Cerberus raid, a nearby NPC tells you that he saw a Cerberus operative shoot her in the head after asking if her name was Kelly Chambers.

 

[BreakfastMan]

This is essentially the view I take it. Its far, far less logical to assume they wrote an ending that was completely contradictory (and lacking in any sense) on multiple levels than it is to believe the Indoctrination Theory, which is balls-deep in evidence.

Its actually ridiculous to not accept the Indoctrination Theory.

And IT is way more artistically interesting, deep, and I would even say important, than the ending we did get. :O Did I just go there? Yes, yes I did.

Of course, the issue then is that there really is something missing from the ending, but it at least makes what's there pretty fucking intelligent (the way its foreshadowed is, in many ways, reminiscent of the foreshadowing for KotOR's twist).

Meh, I don't even really mind that. There was the same type of thing in the original Total Recall and Minority Report, yet I still liked those movies and they worked on their own without another ending tacked on. Same with Jacob's Ladder, or any amount of other stories that did the whole "Encounter at Owl Creek Bridge" thing.

 

[Zhukov]

snip

And even if does all fit perfectly by complete chance, and they wrote the ending whilst they were high as a fucking kite, it still works.

No, it doesn't work.

If Shepard were tripping on reaper juice the whole time, we don't know what really happened to anyone or anything. If it were true, then the ending is even more incomplete.

You've just replaced a shit ending with no ending at all. That's still terrible writing however you look at it.

 

[Avatar Roku]

It's what I've been assuming up to this point anyways.

Kelly, Conrad, Bailey, the Council, that teen girl who lost her parents talking to that turian officer on lower levels, EVERYONE on the citadel died horrible deaths when the reapers came to the citadel courtesy of TIM's tipoff.

Kelly was already dead by that point. If you go to visit her after the Cerberus raid, a nearby NPC tells you that he saw a Cerberus operative shoot her in the head after asking if her name was Kelly Chambers.

Apparently, that depends on what you told her when you met up with her earlier. If you told her to go into hiding, she survives.

Or so I hear. She wasn't in my game, for whatever reason.

 

[Woodsey]

This is essentially the view I take it. Its far, far less logical to assume they wrote an ending that was completely contradictory (and lacking in any sense) on multiple levels than it is to believe the Indoctrination Theory, which is balls-deep in evidence.

Its actually ridiculous to not accept the Indoctrination Theory.

And IT is way more artistically interesting, deep, and I would even say important, than the ending we did get. :O Did I just go there? Yes, yes I did.

Of course, the issue then is that there really is something missing from the ending, but it at least makes what's there pretty fucking intelligent (the way its foreshadowed is, in many ways, reminiscent of the foreshadowing for KotOR's twist).

Meh, I don't even really mind that. There was the same type of thing in the original Total Recall and Minority Report, yet I still liked those movies and they worked on their own without another ending tacked on. Same with Jacob's Ladder, or any amount of other stories that did the whole "Encounter at Owl Creek Bridge" thing.

Well, I'd say Minority Report was different - if it's ending was a dream then the rest of the film already had an ending.

ME3's instead dives into a very personal conclusion without then addressing the highly prevalent overarching plot (actually defeating the Reapers) - since the series has always held an equal focus on both the micro and macro plots, I'd consider it poor writing to exclude the bigger conclusion. I guess it depends somewhat upon whether you consider the post-credits scene with the boy to be in his head or not (personally, I do).

 

[Frankster]

Kelly was already dead by that point. If you go to visit her after the Cerberus raid, a nearby NPC tells you that he saw a Cerberus operative shoot her in the head after asking if her name was Kelly Chambers.

That's only if you didn't tell her to change her name. In which case you'll find her after the cerberus raid all fine and dandy and thanking you for making her change her identity.

And then she goes off getting killed no matter what by staying on the citadel T_T In retrospect letting her get offed by cerberus is the kindest favor you can do, she would only have lived for a few days more until the reapers came and a bullet to the head is faster then whatever the reapers would have done.

Or so I hear. She wasn't in my game, for whatever reason.

That means your kelly became reaper food during me2. If this isn't what happened in your playthrough then I'm afraid your savegame bugged during the transfer.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

Kelly was already dead by that point. If you go to visit her after the Cerberus raid, a nearby NPC tells you that he saw a Cerberus operative shoot her in the head after asking if her name was Kelly Chambers.

That's only if you didn't tell her to change her name. In which case you'll find her after the cerberus raid all fine and dandy and thanking you for making her change her identity.

And then she goes off getting killed no matter what by staying on the citadel T_T In retrospect letting her get offed by cerberus is the kindest favor you can do, she would only have lived for a few days more until the reapers came and a bullet to the head is faster then whatever the reapers would have done.

Oddly enough I did tell her to change her name, and her getting killed by Cerberus is the outcome I got.

 

[Zeraki]

I envy the people who are capable of deluding themselves into thinking that BioWare had this huge mind blowing indoctrination subplot planned from the beginning, and is going to be giving us the proper endings as free DLC.

If they managed to write in all that stuff that supports the Indoctrination Theory purely by mistake (including the scenes in Vancouver), then I have to be impressed by just how terrible the lead writer is.

Like I said, I envy your optimism. I've become too much of a cynic at this point to not boil it down to it just being horribly rushed and poorly thought out.

Besides, the very idea of the indoctrination theory pisses me off. I loved the Mass Effect series for it being an uplifting Space Opera in the same vein of Star Wars, not some vague pretentious pseudo intellectual crap like the Matrix sequels.

I'm not trying to offend, that's just the way I feel about this whole situation. And no amount of debate with anyone is going to change that.

 

[Frankster]

Oddly enough I did tell her to change her name, and her getting killed by Cerberus is the outcome I got.

Then I honestly dunno what happened there. Bug seems likeliest explanation as this isn't a % thing, either you told her to change her name and she lives for a few more days, or you don't and she dies.

 

[BreakfastMan]

snip

And even if does all fit perfectly by complete chance, and they wrote the ending whilst they were high as a fucking kite, it still works.

No, it doesn't work.

If Shepard were tripping on reaper juice the whole time, we don't know what really happened to anyone or anything. If it were true, then the ending is even more incomplete.

You've just replaced a shit ending with no ending at all. That's still terrible writing however you look at it.

Well, better tell Minority Report, Total Recall, Jacob's Ladder, Encounter at Owl Creek Bridge, Videodrome, In the Mouth of Madness, most every Lovecraft story ever, The Shining, House of Leaves, and a number of other stories they are poorly written then. :/