The correct (aka less jerkish) way to combat used sales.

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gruggins

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Apr 24, 2011
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what id is doing is just... wrong. there is no other word for it.
its similar to say, buying a second hand copy of 'harry potter and the order of the pheonix' and so jk rowling comes over to my house and tears out some chapters because the money isn't going straight to her

or

say i buy a second-hand copy of the terminator and find that the dvd has erased the middle five scenes thus rendering the story incomprehensable

to quote moviebob: "This. Madness. Has. Got. To. STOP!"
what id is doing is SABOTAGING its games for second-hand buyers. this shit should be illegal.
 

Lyri

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Dec 8, 2008
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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
With the news that RAGE will lock content on used copies the debate about used sales in general has sprung up again.
I'm against what id is doing. There is a better way to combat used sales. Reward consumers who buy new instead of punishing those that buy used. It is a philosophy that would breed appreciation, not contempt. Use the carrot, not the stick.

Examples:
Record of Agarest War Zero and Disgaea 4:
They both have standard versions that are priced at 50$. 10$ below the industry norm. Both games also have "Limited" editions that sale for 60$ that come with extras like artbooks and cds. People who just want the game can buy it at a discount and fans can choose to support the publishers/developers by buying the games at full price and are rewarded with goodies.

I hope that strategies like this catch on in the industry. Publishers and developers can fight used sales without demonizing and alienating consumers.

Dicussion: Do you know of any other publishers doing things like this? How do you feel about it? Would you like to see this trend catch on? And do you have any ideas that publishers could employ?
I can't take this post seriously because you haven't actually said anything about your original point.
You said
"Rage is locking content"

Content could mean a whole lot of things, content could mean characters, maps, weapons, music, cut scenes, levels & just about anything else.
What you have done is a gross misrepresentation of the truth to fund a point you don't even seem to solve in your post anyway.

Here is what rage is actually locking.

In an interview with Eurogamer, creative director Tim Willits revealed that the FPS adventure will hide some parts of the single player world from players who do not buy the game new. ?We have the first-time buyer stuff with all the sewers,? Willits said. ?If you bought the game new, that would be open for you. You still have to download it, but you don?t have to pay for it.?
A tunnel system. That is it. Which it's not like it's locked forever either, you can still go on to unlock the system.
I read on this very site that the tunnel system isn't even that necessary either, it's just there and most people never get to see it.
So what have you lost really? Nothing I'd say from buying used. You've just lost something that actually would cut content by allowing you to bypass it in tunnels.

Irony.

edit: Just inferred from the post itself that the sewers are to be downloaded, so guess what if you don't have internet connection to your console or pc you're not getting it either.
It's not as bad you're making out.

Examples:
Record of Agarest War Zero and Disgaea 4:
They both have standard versions that are priced at 50$. 10$ below the industry norm. Both games also have "Limited" editions that sale for 60$ that come with extras like artbooks and cds. People who just want the game can buy it at a discount and fans can choose to support the publishers/developers by buying the games at full price and are rewarded with goodies.
How exactly is having a limited edition of a game with extra swag new or solving used sales?
We already do this.
 

surg3n

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May 16, 2011
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There seems to be no communication with actual buyers though. If the price of games dropped as they got older then they could probably deswade people from buying used copies - I would rather spend an extra £5 and get a sealed copy. Say if games that are new are £40, after 6 months that should drop to £30, then maybe £5 every 6 months. Some game stores offer 4 XBox games for £20, that's £5 each - a clear indication that these games were never worth £40.

There's a lot to be said for finding better pricing for games anyway. With services like Steam, there is no justification in charging retail prices. What if RAGE went on sale for £15? - the limitations wouldn't apply, more people would buy the game, and you'd have to be pretty damn cheap to still go and pirate a copy.
I think that publishers kinda have a point, in that they lose money whenever someone buys pre-owned, maybe there should be a percentage of pre-owned sales going back to the publishers. With Mario games for instance, the pre-owned price of games barely drops from retail pricing, so the only people that profit are the game stores, they make a killing on pre-owned sales and that's not right. For instance, maybe it should be upto the game store to reset CD keys, then they could sell the game without the chance of the CD key being used already, or the original owner just no-cd cracking.

Personally, I think publishers should realise that pre-owned buyers are not the scum of the earth - we just want to pay a fair price and not have to worry about CD keys or limits.
 

KiloFox

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Aug 16, 2011
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I think EA is doing that, with the whole "Online pass required to play online" which ONLY comes with the new game. but i think that's more of a ploy to destroy game re-sellers like GameStop, because you CANNOT buy the online code separate. making it pointless to buy the game used. or borrow from a friend. so yeah it's basically a giant middle finger to gamers too. but if people decide to band together and flat out refuse to buy said game, even new, because of such a dickish move (although offering DLC that you can still BUY as an incentive to buy new IS a great way to market it) then i'm sure with enough time the practice WILL die out once it's discovered that it only hurts sales in the end.
 

Eisenfaust

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Apr 20, 2009
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if you keep offering the carrot, pretty sure people are going to expect carrots... then demand them... then demand a bigger carrot... it's a slippery slope. best to be dicks about it and not let us feel even more entitled
 

RadioactiveMicrobe

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Mar 1, 2009
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Eisenfaust said:
if you keep offering the carrot, pretty sure people are going to expect carrots... then demand them... then demand a bigger carrot... it's a slippery slope. best to be dicks about it and not let us feel even more entitled
He has a point.

The same when Bungie released the Blue Flames to the Halo Reach public. Suddenly people were complaining about how they deserve more. And that the people who bought the Legendary edition should get something too.
 

Yopaz

Sarcastic overlord
Jun 3, 2009
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s0p0g said:
viranimus said:
Or better yet, these publishers can quit pretending like they are starving artists and accept that the used market is completely legal and legitimate means of ownership instead of thinking it is their right to more profits than every other industry that sells a product.

Thats the easiest way to fix the problem. Stop trying to change games and evade the laws in order to gain more profits. By not viewing it as a problem, it eliminates the problem and this is certainly the non dickish way of doing it.

Will it happen? no. Should it happen? It shouldnt even be a question in the first place.
amen to that. i wondered for quite some time now how the game industry is crying big tears over used games, while i never heard of an anti-used-films/CDs/books campaign

or what about cars? most younger people i know, and others who aren't that rich, or feel the need of an up-to-date car, buy used cars. the automobile industry isn't a crybaby, either.
The difference between the video game industry and the movie and music industry is quite simple.
When do a video game developer make money? Only once. When the game they put out is sold. Some developers also earn on dlc, but not everyone.
When do a band earn money? The answer is NOT when they sell a CD. The sale od a CD wont give the artist who created it one dime. The artist earns money on concerts and merchandise sold on that concert. This is the kind you can't get second hand because there's a whole experience attached to it. You get to be there once while the band cashes in. There's also money in music being played on the TV or the radio and from music videos on the TV. They're also paid just to appear on some events.
The movie industry also got its way to counter the fact that not everyone who watched their movie will actually buy it. When you buy a movie it's the same deal as a video game. There's a huge crew that worked on effects, publishing, actors etc. There's probably many movies there that cost more to make than most games, how come they cost less? Have you ever noticed this thing called a cinema? Or a movie theatre? Have you ever seen a movie on the TV? these are some of the things used by the movie industry to make money. There's a lot of people there who want to pay the price to watch a movie on the big screen, awesome sound, comfortable chairs on release day. There are plenty of TV companies willing to pay to get the movie on their channels, they finance this by cutting to commercial breaks so both the TV company and the movie company earns money on this deal. Some movie companies also gives you a code to download a free digital copy of a movie when you buy it.

I left books outside of the previous wall of text because what does book have that make them protected against used sales? They have the same reasons as video games to want to sell new. If I buy a book used none of the money goes to the writer. He wont earn money in any way unless I buy the new copy. Why isn't the book industry complaining?
How many persons does it take to write a book? Usually 1 or 2 + editor and a publishing company. How many does it take to make a video game? Have you seen the credits for new video games? They take minutes to get through!
How much money do you need to make a book? You need a laptop/computer/typewriter/Pen and paper. How much money do you need to make a PS3/Xbox 360 game? Roughly 10 million dollars.
Why would you buy a book used? To save money. Why would you buy a video game used? To save money.
Why would you buy a book new? If it's a text book, to get the updated information seeing books on some subjects are outdated by the time they release. For fiction because paper is very vulnerable to tearing and there might be something missing (often seen in library books). Why would you buy a video game new? If there's no day 1 dlc or any restraints for used copies: to make sure it's in perfect condition, because I want it on release date and because I want to support those who made it.
So the biggest differences between the book industry and the game industry is the production cost and the amount of employees required. It's easier to give 1-5 person salary to live than a whole crew of 30. To make a profit the sales have to be high enough to cover the production cost and more. When you write a book there are basically no production costs. You use things you have such as your computer. The costs wont appear until you're going to publish it. When you come to that part all is done by a third party. If they like what they see they get an editor to fix it up before they are going to publish it and they release it. At most this will take a few hundred thousands to do. An average video game require hundred times that. Seeing as their game costs between 2 and 6 times more they still need to sell a lot more just to cover production costs.
I should also mention that most authours write on their spare time. Video game developers have a full time job. Working 9-5 isn't always enough. They sometimes need to pull some all nighters to get done with games before their deadline. Still, both authours and developers have it hard.
 

SovietPanda

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Jun 5, 2011
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I think the only reasonable place for content cuts is multiplayer. If you've bought used, then someone has sold the product and relinquished any rights to access said companies servers, so you should pay to get that access. Before anyone complains that "But so and so paid originally to play for ever and now they're not playing so why should i pay" noone plays any game forever and you can't just keep game servers running and running. You want the game used and cheap? thats fine, you want all the service that goes with that? pay $5.

On a side night, we can all rest eay because witing possibly 5-10 years this will barely be an issue. Everyting will be digitally distributed, seriously everything. And thats not the VG industry conspiring to wipe out used games, thats simply the way of the future.

In short, my advice, keep ya heads down and ride it out... it'll all be over soon enough
 

KiloFox

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Aug 16, 2011
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now that'd make sense and all.. IF they let you buy the online pass after you bought the used copy. but to my knowlege, they DON'T i own a game with an online pass (PSPo2) that i bought used and it HAPPENED to come with the pass still unused. so i got lucky (i didn't even know it NEEDED an online pass) and you CANNOT go into the PSP's PSN and acquire an online pass. you HAVE to buy the game new. Homefront did this too. if they'd at least give me some way of getting an online pass then i'd be okay with that. but no... they didn't.
 

robobengt

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Jan 25, 2010
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The market for used games help feed the market for new games. Why won't some of you see this?
When people who don't have a lot of money wants a new game they trade in their old games to help finance the new ones. Otherwise these new ones wouldn't get sold.

Also, to the guy who said the only way artists make money is from concerts and merchandise: no. Just...No. Artists actually make money from cd sales. Just not as much.
 

Treblaine

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Jul 25, 2008
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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
With the news that RAGE will lock content on used copies the debate about used sales in general has sprung up again.
I'm against what id is doing. There is a better way to combat used sales. Reward consumers who buy new instead of punishing those that buy used. It is a philosophy that would breed appreciation, not contempt. Use the carrot, not the stick.

Examples:
Record of Agarest War Zero and Disgaea 4:
They both have standard versions that are priced at 50$. 10$ below the industry norm. Both games also have "Limited" editions that sale for 60$ that come with extras like artbooks and cds. People who just want the game can buy it at a discount and fans can choose to support the publishers/developers by buying the games at full price and are rewarded with goodies.

I hope that strategies like this catch on in the industry. Publishers and developers can fight used sales without demonizing and alienating consumers.

Dicussion: Do you know of any other publishers doing things like this? How do you feel about it? Would you like to see this trend catch on? And do you have any ideas that publishers could employ?
That's purely a matter of perspective.

Are they punishing Used Copy buyers by "locking out" the sewer levels.

or,

Are they rewarding New Copy buyers by "adding" these sewer levels.

The problem is that for EVERY game a whole crap load of content is planned and partially developed and may not make the final cut. So when it actually comes down to it no one can tell the difference between:
-giving New Customers more, and
-Giving 2nd-hand customers less

But what the hell do I know, I'm getting this on Steam (and saving £11-15 in the process) where used ain't even an option.

I just don't think the console model can work without the used market model. It exists there because $60 is too much for a new game people can only buy 2 per year unless they subsidise their hobby by selling their game on to people lower down the chain.

Yes, Console gaming can go no-rebuy but they MUST be cheaper and they MUST have higher returns.

Remember even for NEW games the publisher sell them to retail at about $35 per disc yet they sell them at $60 per disc. There are just so many do-nothing middle men demanding their cut, yet they add nothing to the game itself.

I think what is needed is Super-XBLA games, just take the XBLA model with (I understand) a flat 30% cut of the earnings, the publisher takes the other

And with this they MUST balance the fact that you (1)cannot trade-in and (2) they are getting higher proportions, with a lower price point. Something closer to $50 WITH all the DLC.

They have no right to complain, they still get $35 per games but get this. Publishers may sell their games at $35 per disc wholesale to retailers... but each disc has a $12 licensing fee from MS/Sony plus the cost of disc printing + Packaging. So they sell each disc (wholesales) for $35 but only make about $17 net per disc.