The cover art for Elder Scrolls: Arena is embarassing.

[Hagi]

But if ALL you see is tits and ass well... that's your problem, not a problem with the art.

Why can you not realise your obsession over her sexuality is blinding you to what is actually there! Or acting as if her sexuality voids all other martial accoutrements and violent intentions!?!?!?

Are you seriously telling me that you really consider a thong, mini bra, stockings, bandanna, war paint and sword to be perfectly normal martial equipment fitting in with the rest of the adventuring party?

Nope.

Never did I ever say or even hint it was "normal". It's very weird, almost like something out of a work of Fantasy... in fact this IS a fantasy adventure. It's as crazy as wizards shooting lightning from their fingers and dragons and anachronisms.

That all that stuff isn't there to serve as eye candy but that there's a genuine completely logical reason for her to be wearing that stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with showing off as much skin as possible?

Oh no, it IS there for aesthetics or "eye candy" as you so crudely put it, I'm just saying there is nothing wrong with that. And that being sexually alluring doesn't automatically make a woman a mere object. And what does logic have to do with this, it is a FANTASY ADVENTURE?!!? God... you wouldn't complain about the physical impossibility that a dragon could fly in terms of thrust to weight ratio, why are you picking this nit?

You can continue ignoring the simple fact that she's wearing an outfit that'd be sold in a sex-shop instead of actual martial equipment if you want, but don't expect me to go along with it.

She's there for eye-candy. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with it. But don't pretend that she's perfectly fitting in with the rest of that party. Or do, just don't expect me to join you in your little fantasy world.

I have no idea what they sell in a sex shop, I've never been in one. Have you?

Face the facts, if it was an oiled male barbarian in nothing but a loincloth and sporting pythons like Arnie in his prime no one would suggest he wouldn't "fit in", even if it was for a work specifically targeted to women or gay men. You have said you are fine with her being sexual but seem to be on terms that just must not "fit in" whatever the hell that prejudice is supposed to mean.

Oooh I get it, because she is a sexual WOMAN that makes her an "outsider" that excludes her from everyone else. Sexism much? Women can only be part of society if they cover up and stop distracting us noble-hearted men, eh? Pah! I guess by your standards the only place women can be sexual is in their husband's bedroom, is that right? Is that the way you'd have it?!!? Please, explain yourself! Precisely on what terms does she not "fit in" with the party?

This character is the Amazon archetype where she fits in PERFECTLY. The trope is they DO dress like that, just like how a druid dresses in robes and the elf has to have a bow, and the dwarf has to have a hammer/axe or some other end-heavy weapon, the barbarian in loincloth. It is not based on ultra-realistic pragmatism, it is based on aesthetics. This is Elder Scrolls, not ARMA.

Do you know what the male equivalent would be?

It wouldn't be a guy in loincloth.

It'd be a guy in this:

Can you honestly say that a guy wearing just that, a bandanna, war-paint and a sword would fit in with an adventuring party in full plate mail? Especially when he's posed with his hips thrust forward and arms tensed at his side to show off as much musculature as possible?

Can you honestly say that people wouldn't think this would be targeted at women and gay men?

This would be the female equivalent of a loincloth:

What that cover girl is wearing isn't a fantasy outfit. It's a fetish outfit. And that's fine, no problem at all. Nothing wrong with that. But don't start calling it something it isn't.

 

[tthor]

Don't boys and young men have enough pressure put on them to conform to aesthetic ideals?

No

"Younger men who read so-called "lads mags" could be psychologically harmed by the images of perfect male physiques they contain, research suggests." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7318411.stm

"One of Britain's leading eating disorder experts says as many as one in five young men are deeply unhappy with their body image." http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/health/newsid_7611000/7611115.stm

"Anorexic says men need more help" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/8045237.stm

"Are men suffering in silence [about bulimia]?" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7358527.stm

"The number of men suffering from eating disorders is rising, says the Royal College of General Practitioners." http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/14051772

"Male breast op numbers 'growing fastest' - Pressure created by men's magazines was partly to blame, one surgeon said." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8487526.stm

Because a topless guy in a fairly bottom covering loincloth, showing off his muscles which honestly only appeals to a few fetishists, and is mostly just to look strong and at the same time mildly savage, is comparable to a woman, up in front, with a slim figure and itty bitty shoulders that could hardly fight a thing, in a g-string, while the men behind are ultra-clothed.

Right... yeah. No, it's not at all the same.

The man is showing off his barbarian muscles. She's showing off her ass.

Well, the woman is still wearing more clothes than his. This guy doesn't even get a chainmail bra to cover his modesty. Where's the equality?

Also, the gluteus maximus is the largest muscle in the human body. She's displaying her musculature too.

You make a lot of assumptions. Assumption 1: When a woman bares flesh, she's being exploited. Do you not see the pictures young women take of themsleves and post on Facebook? Have you never been to a nightclub? A lot of girls LIKE to dress skimpy, and it's as much about empowerment and feeling good about themselves as it is about attracting men.

Assumption 2: Women don't objectify men. Have you HEARD the conversations girls have? Most women I know fairly drool over the barely-legal male actors in Twilight.

Assumption 3: The average woman doesn't like powerfully-built men. What about the men on the covers of Mills and Boon books (that's erotic literature for women, before anybody suggests that women don't enjoy porn), half of them fit the stereotype of the strong, mysterious man, his shoulder-length hair blowing in the wind as his chest heaves in his half-undone shirt.. etc etc.

I put it to you, LilithSlave, that you have a bigotted view towards sexuality, and you think that women are always being objectified and undermined while men are always in control and expoliting the poor vulnerable women. That's not a very progressive thing to believe, is it?

dude, she's wearing a fucking dominatrix outfit you find a loincloth at a costume store. you find HER outfit at a porn shop.

 

[Gothtasical]

Now i understand the reason for being upset but lets be honest that game came out a while ago correct? Most rpg games and the like were played by males or let me correct that most 'KNOWN' rpg players where males in which their targeted audience would look at that and because of the half nude (modern day if you go to the beach anytime soon mind you) girl on the front why? because it stands out if you look at that it's going to look better then say just a man in a loincloth it's not really like they where trying to offend anyone they just wanted to sell games and sell games they did and it's been one of their if not most profitable series sooo.... yea besides this happened a while ago soo... i do remember that was happening in almost every single form of entertainment during that time period. movies, comics, books (have you walked past a romance novel section....actually that still is going on) and other games alike.

 

[Flying-Emu]

That was bethesda's sense of humor until morrowind I guess.

Daggerfall was worse I think. Lots of naked women in that game.

It wasn't a sense of humor; Arena was supposed to be a classical fantasy game in the vein of Dungeons and Dragons, the Conan of Hyboria fantasy, where men were burly and women were busty bandit princesses that needed to be saved by said burly men.

The amount of ignorance in this thread is shocking. That is what pop fantasy in the 80's and 90's was.

 

[Dimitriov]

CD-ROM version?
Yes, that's embarrassing.
Why is it not on DVD?
Nothing wrong with the art though.

'Cause DVD's weren't invented until about a year after they released the game!

OT: Ummm it looks like all computer games did in the 90's... yeah. Heck, in Daggerfall the game included nudity.

 

[Dimitriov]

Do you know what the male equivalent would be?

It wouldn't be a guy in loincloth.

It'd be a guy in this:

Can you honestly say that a guy wearing just that, a bandanna, war-paint and a sword would fit in with an adventuring party in full plate mail? Especially when he's posed with his hips thrust forward and arms tensed at his side to show off as much musculature as possible?

Well he would fit into the movie 300 just fine

 

[trollnystan]

How can we have got this far through the thread and no-one's posted this?

or if that's redex'd / hot link prevented, the page:
http://www.gamebox64.com/cgi-bin/displaygamebox.pl?GameBox64ID=95

SNIPPED REST

So THAT'S where my brother got that poster! He used to have it on the wall in his room, the only overtly pornographic thing to see when you went in. (I had to dig a little to find the real dirty stuff. Me = nosey little sister =P)

Oh memories of rooting through my brother's stack of comics (and other things) are just flooding back now!

OT: Wow. That is one scantily clad female. And to think I get a (very) little peeved when playing Fallout 3/New Vegas and all the male underwear have tops that are tucked into their skivvies while the females are constantly midrifting FOR NO REASON. It's a silly thing to be miffed at but then I am very silly. Now I realise Bethesda really has come a long way.

But as the guy I quoted says in the part I snipped, sex sells. Sigh.

 

[Peteron]

Oh my....who cares? The times were different then. They didn't "learn their lesson" as you like to put it. They simply followed the time period. Hell, tons of games from Japan do this kind of thing all the time.

 

[Treblaine]

Do you know what the male equivalent would be? It wouldn't be a guy in loincloth. It'd be a guy in this:

Spoiler: TREB NOTE: am I supposed to be shocked my this because I HAVE seen barbarians wear such things

Can you honestly say that a guy wearing just that, a bandanna, war-paint and a sword would fit in with an adventuring party in full plate mail? Especially when he's posed with his hips thrust forward and arms tensed at his side to show off as much musculature as possible?

Can you honestly say that people wouldn't think this would be targeted at women and gay men?

This would be the female equivalent of a loincloth:

What that cover girl is wearing isn't a fantasy outfit. It's a fetish outfit. And that's fine, no problem at all. Nothing wrong with that. But don't start calling it something it isn't.

What utterly ridiculous "equivalence". What you are describing is a male-stripper. She is NOT a female stripper. She is NOT in a stripper pose, she is wielding a fugging huge sword in the EXACT SAME STANCE as the male knight immediately behind her!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Elder_Scrolls_Arena_Cover.jpg


But your description of the supposed male "equivalent":

posed with his hips thrust forward and arms tensed at his side to show off as much musculature as possible

THAT is a stripper pose. A lurid one thrusting genitals, and no combat purpose at all. From that you will immediately think "well this guy must be the entertainment, because he sure isn't for fighting... he's thrusting his weak spot right beyond his defences". Warrioress isn't doing that with a raised sword IN FORMATION WITH THE KNIGHT.

Can you honestly say that people wouldn't think this would be targeted at women and gay men?

Hmm, well what you describe is quite clearly a male-stripper as there is not even the slightest pretence of a combat purpose. That's from the pose (which has ZERO equivalence with Arena Warrioress pose (which is Identical to the Knight's pose)) and wearing a sword rather than wielding it. And who cares if it does appeal to one demographic, that doesn't exclude all other demographics, so what is your point? I guess insinuating a point that couldn't stand being stated plainly.

Do NOT base your entire argument on nothing but prudish moralising via tenuous equivalency. Because that is all you are doing.

It's a fetish outfit.

WEASEL WORD ALERT!

You seem to not even know the meaning of the word "fetish" OR you are using it purely in the pejorative sense of "sex that is wrong by my standards". It's another example of your blatant use of weasel words after "eye candy" and others. Also calling the warrioress on the "cover" as a "girl". Weasel words don't mean anything, their sole purpose is to slander by indirect insinuation. Its a weasely way of making an argument.

But don't start calling it something it isn't.

That is a BIT Rich coming from you, isn't it?

I don't do weasel words, I'll say it to you directly:

Why must you make it impossible for woman to be sexual without people like YOU making her out as nothing but a stripper? Huh? If you're going to reply, do us a favour and answer this question RIGHT AWAY.

Because that's what you are doing by saying the male equivalent is the exact description of a male stripper. You DENY her her warriorhood just because of her appearance. What this is doing is showing a woman can be sexual and have agency! But you tenuously deny her that, and I suppose that is the woman's burden. Or "girl's burden" as you might put it as you seem to like calling this woman a "girl".

PS: Kiera Knightly is showing JUST AS MUCH as Arena's Warrioress... is your concern really the material? Brown leather is fine but it's all different if it is black material?!!? What?!! No, that makes no sense.

 

[DementedSheep]

But if ALL you see is tits and ass well... that's your problem, not a problem with the art.

Why can you not realise your obsession over her sexuality is blinding you to what is actually there! Or acting as if her sexuality voids all other martial accoutrements and violent intentions!?!?!?

Are you seriously telling me that you really consider a thong, mini bra, stockings, bandanna, war paint and sword to be perfectly normal martial equipment fitting in with the rest of the adventuring party?

Nope.

Never did I ever say or even hint it was "normal". It's very weird, almost like something out of a work of Fantasy... in fact this IS a fantasy adventure. It's as crazy as wizards shooting lightning from their fingers and dragons and anachronisms.

That all that stuff isn't there to serve as eye candy but that there's a genuine completely logical reason for her to be wearing that stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with showing off as much skin as possible?

Oh no, it IS there for aesthetics or "eye candy" as you so crudely put it, I'm just saying there is nothing wrong with that. And that being sexually alluring doesn't automatically make a woman a mere object. And what does logic have to do with this, it is a FANTASY ADVENTURE?!!? God... you wouldn't complain about the physical impossibility that a dragon could fly in terms of thrust to weight ratio, why are you picking this nit?

You can continue ignoring the simple fact that she's wearing an outfit that'd be sold in a sex-shop instead of actual martial equipment if you want, but don't expect me to go along with it.

She's there for eye-candy. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with it. But don't pretend that she's perfectly fitting in with the rest of that party. Or do, just don't expect me to join you in your little fantasy world.

I have no idea what they sell in a sex shop, I've never been in one. Have you?

Face the facts, if it was an oiled male barbarian in nothing but a loincloth and sporting pythons like Arnie in his prime no one would suggest he wouldn't "fit in", even if it was for a work specifically targeted to women or gay men. You have said you are fine with her being sexual but seem to be on terms that just must not "fit in" whatever the hell that prejudice is supposed to mean.

Oooh I get it, because she is a sexual WOMAN that makes her an "outsider" that excludes her from everyone else. Sexism much? Women can only be part of society if they cover up and stop distracting us noble-hearted men, eh? Pah! I guess by your standards the only place women can be sexual is in their husband's bedroom, is that right? Is that the way you'd have it?!!? Please, explain yourself! Precisely on what terms does she not "fit in" with the party?

This character is the Amazon archetype where she fits in PERFECTLY. The trope is they DO dress like that, just like how a druid dresses in robes and the elf has to have a bow, and the dwarf has to have a hammer/axe or some other end-heavy weapon, the barbarian in loincloth. It is not based on ultra-realistic pragmatism, it is based on aesthetics. This is Elder Scrolls, not ARMA.

Do you know what the male equivalent would be?

It wouldn't be a guy in loincloth.

It'd be a guy in this:

Can you honestly say that a guy wearing just that, a bandanna, war-paint and a sword would fit in with an adventuring party in full plate mail? Especially when he's posed with his hips thrust forward and arms tensed at his side to show off as much musculature as possible?

Can you honestly say that people wouldn't think this would be targeted at women and gay men?

This would be the female equivalent of a loincloth:

What that cover girl is wearing isn't a fantasy outfit. It's a fetish outfit. And that's fine, no problem at all. Nothing wrong with that. But don't start calling it something it isn't.

I think you're exaggerating a bit here. I kind of agree the outfit is more like the leather thong than loincloth but while she is pumping her chest out her pose is not that blatant. It?s more like a guy holding his weapons out in found of him in a way that looks like he is flexing (which is not uncomman). Guinevere from king Arther is not the equivalent of the standard loincloth wearing guy. I think they were trying to make that more believable. The standard loincloth guy generally has perfect hair, exaggerated physic and looks like he's been oiled.

 

[Fishyash]

That was bethesda's sense of humor until morrowind I guess.

Daggerfall was worse I think. Lots of naked women in that game.

It wasn't a sense of humor; Arena was supposed to be a classical fantasy game in the vein of Dungeons and Dragons, the Conan of Hyboria fantasy, where men were burly and women were busty bandit princesses that needed to be saved by said burly men.

The amount of ignorance in this thread is shocking. That is what pop fantasy in the 80's and 90's was.

Poor wording I guess. My mind got mixed up because I thought they found explicit stuff amusing after reading the ted peterson interview on planet elder scrolls.
http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Articles.Detail&id=12

"bethesda's approach to the fantasy genre (not exactly in a unique way I am assuming)" more than "bethesda's sense of humor" I think.

Here was the main part that messed me up because after re-reading it I got it completely wrong.

A funny event you remember during your presence in this software house?

---skipping first anecdote

And then there was the rating system, which is more black humor than anything else. Between Arena and Daggerfall, the United States Congress, led by Senator -- nearly vice-president -- Joe Lieberman, had decided that we needed to have a rating system on computer games to save the kids. I got a questionaire for Daggerfall which was obviously made for much simpler games. It asked questions like "Is there nudity in this game?" "Yes." "Is there bloodshed?" "Yes." "Can an innocent person be killed?" "Yes." "Can there be a reward for killing an innocent person?" "Yes." We got slapped with the worst rating for a game, needless to say. And later, Lieberman listed us as being one of the top ten worst corrupters of children ... Of course, I'm sure that sold a few units.

I caught "explicit" and "humor" close together, and got the wrong idea when trying to recall from memory.

Honestly what I really think is it the cover was fine for its time. I was only a little kid in the 90s, so the games I was playing were stuff like mario and sonic. I do know why it's like the way it is though now. From a modern perspective it does seem shocking though, but not worth nitpicking over.

I am glad that the thread was acctually salvaged into an actual discussion though. The argument going on is interesting.

 

[lacktheknack]

Considering how you could run around bare naked in-game (carefully drawn status screen included), this cover art doesn't surprise me. At least they did their part in making sure parents knew not to buy this for their kids, tasteful or not.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

All I see is a typical '90s fantasy box art cover. That's pretty typical, even conservative, if you're well-versed in old school D&D, Conan, Palladium Fantasy, Mercedes Lackey, you get the picture, book and box art. What's here to get in a tiff over? May as well start griping about the box art to the gold box game Curse of the Azure Bonds while you're at it.

Seriously, how many people still truck out Heavy Metal and beat Ivan Reitman over the head with it as some sexist masterpiece, or talk about how embarrassing that must be for him now? I can guarantee you that movie was responsible for a lot more objectification of women -- and coincidentally enough, kitten massacre -- than freakin' Elder Scrolls ever has been or ever will be.

 

[Batou667]

dude, she's wearing a fucking dominatrix outfit you find a loincloth at a costume store. you find HER outfit at a porn shop.

Well, neither outfit is exactly something you'd wear strolling down the street. I wouldn't call the girl's costume a dominatrix outfit - it's closer to a bikini if you ask me. I've seen women at the beach wear less than her.

Two characters. Both are weilding weapons. Both are baring a lot of skin in a manner that is probably attractive to the opposite gender. But the girl is being exploited while the man is displaying his superiority? This is the bit that I can't get my head around.

 

[Zeema]

What?

Okay, from now on, everypony in RPGs will be completely naked.
That way noone dies.

....thats the best idea i have ever heard

Imagine WoW its got like Naked werewolves/Orcs/Goblins/Height Impaired people.

WoW already knew this would happen naked people. they had it planned out

 

[Bostur]

Was the game as bad as the cover? Usually that kind of box art would be used to hide a game that the publisher knew was so bad, that sex was the only way it would sell. I would have skipped that game completely based on the cover.

There were some truly horrific covers, but it wasn't common at all. I think Bethesda made that cover because they were insecure and thought they needed nakid ladiez to sell.

I apologize, but I couldn't help take a stroll down memory lane.


Wasteland 1988, I get a bit of a BF3 vibe from that:

Spoiler

Bard's Tale III another RPG from the same developers:

Spoiler

Micropose games usually had tasteful covers, but Darklands has a bit of a Conan feel to it:

Spoiler

I think the cover of Elite actually won some awards:

Spoiler

Ultima had a very special cover style, Ultima 3 almost reminds me of Doom

Spoiler

AD&D was well known for having a sexist teenage-den artstyle, but now these would be considered perfectly normal:

Spoiler

But they were not all as demeaning as that:

Spoiler

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Oh God, look at this disgusting box art! It's like some pervy girl's sordid dream. Don't boys and young men have enough pressure put on them to conform to aesthetic ideals? This is basically pornography! It's so undermining! They could have had the guy wearing a nice sensible sweater, a cardigan maybe, but noooooo, it had to be pecs out for the girls. What kind of sick female chauvinist do you think drew this pathetic fantasy scene? You can bet it wasn't a man.

hahahaha

perfect


OT: that cover is awful yeah, but who gives a fuck? the chick isn't even real, on top of that people do porn/walk around naked all the damn time, do you really define them as a lesser person?

 

[RicoADF]

Has your life ever been significantly hindered by the fact that people around you expect you to be nothing but abs and biceps?

All the time, media like those pictures have women expecting men to look like that and thus alot wont accept a guy that hasnt got a 'six pack', too many women are shallow.

Have you ever been turned down for a job because the panel (naturally composed of women) felt you were a dumb himbo with big pecs?

There's alot of sterotypes against men which can make getting a job hard, as well as other day to day activities. Have you had police follow you when your driving not because your a bad driver, but because your a young male driver, and thus by law must be a hoon that does burnouts and drifts. Women aren't the only ones that get harrassed &/or discriminated against

Have you ever been improperly propositioned or harassed by women because your body resembles those images?

No, probably because I don't resemble those images, but there are guys that do get harrassed by women due to their looks, so that does go both ways.

More importantly, have you ever read a romance novel? If so, I promise you'd understand why these things are so uncommon.

I've seen romance movies, and as I said above their not uncommon, and yes romance movies/novels do work towards causing some of these issues (as well as other media) as they tell women to only accept men that look a certain way, not their personality etc. I doubt you noticed the men in such movies are always perfectly attractive

Romance novels don't 'stereotype' men at all, they stereotype a particular type of relationship and then sell it to women as a fantasy.

Yes a type of relationship thats just a fantasy and then the women expect that from their men, even the unrealistic parts.

The obsession with muscles is pornographic, but that doesn't make it objectifying, the muscles represent a man's physical superiority within the relationship - they actually do something - those bodies are drooled over because they do something, they exist for more than the gratification of the opposite sex.

Ok this is the most sexist part, the obsession with muscles and the obsession with brests/the women's body is identical, their both about how the opposite sex judges a potential mate. Women look for muscles as it shows a healthy and strong mate which could provide for the family and the male looks for a healthy women that can provide healthy children, both cases are instinctive sexual desires based off what use to be benefits/ways of judging the viability of a mate, and are equally as objectifying and shallow as eachother.

The people who actually are stereotyped by those images do not suffer for it, they benefit enormously because they have a presumed power over women (or by extension submissive men). This contrasts very harshly with the kinds of images men tend to create of 'fantasy' women.

No their not, those that are like that, but for the average normal guy, they do suffer for it as it's expect that they should be like that.

My point is it goes both ways, and while yes women are objectified and it's a major preassure on them, so are men and it's the same for us. Sexism is a problem for both sides, and to think guys get it all easy and women are hard done by is sexist in itself as it denys the problem exists for everybody.

I had to reply as it really irritated me to see someone have it so one sided and be so blind to what it's really like, the grass always seems greener on the other side. Women get alot of benefits in the law over men, altho that (atleast in Australia), is slowly equalising, it isn't all against women, it's quite scewed towards them, so stop crying your so hard done by and men get it so easy when in reality theres alot of work that needs to be done for both sides of the fence.

 

[AWAR]

A sexist fantasy rpg picture!! So what?!? We are literally bombarded with sexist or sex related messages and stereotypes every single day in any kind of media, be it TV, Movies, Music and games
I seriously think some of you were born yesterday.. There is a pretty fine line between decency and puritan logic, I'm guessing you are younger than 30 yet you talk like some kind of catholic school headmistress..

I think that you are missing the point. First of all let's go back when TES:Arena was released. What kind of person was a CRPG player back then? What kind of audience did Bethesda target?
Remember back in 1994, the gaming market was a fraction of what it is nowadays and the average TES player was a male teen with probably lower than average social life.

Remember the Morrowind models?

Spoiler

Is that sexist?