The "damnit...not all Germans were Nazi's in WW2" thread.

[asiepshtain]

It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

In a war that happened TWO GENERATIONS AGO.

Or are you seriously implying that my 25-year-old friend in Germany was somehow implicit in the Nazi party's rise to power in the mid-1930s?

I was talking about people alive at that time, thought that was obvious. Off course your friend has nothing to feel bad about, he was even't born yet. His grandparents however are responsible for what happened in their country.

 

[asiepshtain]

It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

Are you suggesting that we blame every single American for the deaths of civilians in Iraq, or every Israeli person for the mistreatment of Palestinians?
Hell, lets blame all Russians for the persecution of priests in the USSR.
Oh! I know! It's my fault Fallout 3 is banned in Australia, I'm to blame for the proposed filter for Australian internet!

Yes, you are. Yes, the Russians are. Yes, the Americans are.

And to answer your question in much more detail as I am an Israeli and I did serve in the army. I am responsible for the actions of my country!

I voted my government into power, I allow this government to continue threw the payment of taxes and not rebelling. I serve the government by serving in the army and I am wholly responsible for it's actions, being a citizen means you have rights but also means you are part of the country in all the things it does.

Not going to get into the whole Israel-Palestine thing as I think it's off-topic ( even thou we're right).

 

[asiepshtain]

True, but, and this is one huge fucking but...

While not all Germans belonged to the Nazi party, and obviously not all of them were with the SS. They all share the moral responsibility of allowing the Nazi party to rise to power. They all share the moral responsibility of the silent concession of the murder of millions of people. Not just Jews, also intellectuals, gays, communists, the disabled and many more.

It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

Most Germans at the time didn't even know about the mass murders.

Really?!

They didn't notice whole neighborhoods vanish then? Didn't notice when their Jewish negibhors were rounded up and taken away? Didn't notice the rules by the government about Jews not going to schools or shopping or having to wear a yellow star? Or maybe they just didn't go to the fucking speeches by Hitler about the Jewish parasite and how it should be eradicated?

Get your head out of your ass and go read some history books!

 

[Aardvark Soup]

True, but, and this is one huge fucking but...

While not all Germans belonged to the Nazi party, and obviously not all of them were with the SS. They all share the moral responsibility of allowing the Nazi party to rise to power. They all share the moral responsibility of the silent concession of the murder of millions of people. Not just Jews, also intellectuals, gays, communists, the disabled and many more.

It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

Most Germans at the time didn't even know about the mass murders.

Really?!

They didn't notice whole neighborhoods vanish then? Didn't notice when their Jewish negibhors were rounded up and taken away? Didn't notice the rules by the government about Jews not going to schools or shopping or having to wear a yellow star? Or maybe they just didn't go to the fucking speeches by Hitler about the Jewish parasite and how it should be eradicated?

Get your head out of your ass and go read some history books!

Indeed, most Germans certainly did know about this to a certain degree (there were very few who knew about concentration camps though). And I think the reason a huge amount people said they supported Hitler was out of fear. I really think that the same could happen to any country in the same situation as post-WW1 Germany with a person like Hitler.

 

[asiepshtain]

True, but, and this is one huge fucking but...

While not all Germans belonged to the Nazi party, and obviously not all of them were with the SS. They all share the moral responsibility of allowing the Nazi party to rise to power. They all share the moral responsibility of the silent concession of the murder of millions of people. Not just Jews, also intellectuals, gays, communists, the disabled and many more.

It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

No they are not. That is without compassion, mercy, or forgiveness. History does not owe anyone nor does it need to point fingers.

The other's were defending their homeland and had no knowledge of the actual murders taking place. They were too busy fighting several armies to notice.

Lets start,

A. No I have no forgiveness nor compassion nor mercy for Germans who were alive and adults at the time. My family was decimated. My grandfather had six brothers, all dead. My grandmother had four brothers, all dead. Parents, dead. Cousins, dead. They got out, two whole families reduced to two people. And thats just one side of my family. Compassion was it?

B. They lived in a country who discriminated against Jews openly and as part of the law, the concentration camps was just the end. Where were they when Jews were forced to wear the star and were not allowed to go into shops? Where were they on the crystal night when Jews were lynched in the streets? They were there, holding the fucking torches and throwing stones. They are all accountable.

C.While I do not forgive nor forget, that generation is mostly dead, and I hold no resentment to Germans today. Quite the opposite, no country has better learned the lessons of that war. I hold in highest regard the Germans today and their on going struggle with the crimes of their history. I was part of a visiting program involving German and Israeli kids and couldn't be more impressed by them.

 

[Graustein]

No I have no forgiveness nor compassion nor mercy for Germans who were alive and adults at the time. My family was decimated. My grandfather had six brothers, all dead. My grandmother had four brothers, all dead. Parents, dead. Cousins, dead. They got out, two whole families reduced to two people. And thats just one side of my family. Compassion was it?

You blame people for not wanting to be next? For valuing their own lives and their own families over others, like the vast, vast majority of people anywhere would, have done and still do?

 

[asiepshtain]

No I have no forgiveness nor compassion nor mercy for Germans who were alive and adults at the time. My family was decimated. My grandfather had six brothers, all dead. My grandmother had four brothers, all dead. Parents, dead. Cousins, dead. They got out, two whole families reduced to two people. And thats just one side of my family. Compassion was it?

You blame people for not wanting to be next? For valuing their own lives and their own families over others, like the vast, vast majority of people anywhere would, have done and still do?

Gonna go with yes.
Cowardice is no excuse, neither is following orders.
Free will is a ***** that way, you have responsibility beyond your own little circle.
Not to mention I would rather be dead then have my son grow up as a Nazi, for example.

 

[Graustein]

No I have no forgiveness nor compassion nor mercy for Germans who were alive and adults at the time. My family was decimated. My grandfather had six brothers, all dead. My grandmother had four brothers, all dead. Parents, dead. Cousins, dead. They got out, two whole families reduced to two people. And thats just one side of my family. Compassion was it?

You blame people for not wanting to be next? For valuing their own lives and their own families over others, like the vast, vast majority of people anywhere would, have done and still do?

Gonna go with yes.
Cowardice is no excuse, neither is following orders.
Free will is a ***** that way, you have responsibility beyond your own little circle.
Not to mention I would rather be dead then have my son grow up as a Nazi, for example.

Self-preservation is not cowardice. It's one of our most basic instincts. Compassion for the downtrodden victims of society is, sadly, not.
Are you honestly saying that you would put the lives of yourself and your family in danger for the sake of one unjustly persecuted stranger? Knowing full well that by being a sympathiser, you would accomplish absolutely nothing other than the destruction of your own family? Blaming people for looking after their own first and enemies of the state second is like blaming a lion for eating a zebra.

 

[vede]

No I have no forgiveness nor compassion nor mercy for Germans who were alive and adults at the time. My family was decimated. My grandfather had six brothers, all dead. My grandmother had four brothers, all dead. Parents, dead. Cousins, dead. They got out, two whole families reduced to two people. And thats just one side of my family. Compassion was it?

You blame people for not wanting to be next? For valuing their own lives and their own families over others, like the vast, vast majority of people anywhere would, have done and still do?

Gonna go with yes.
Cowardice is no excuse, neither is following orders.
Free will is a ***** that way, you have responsibility beyond your own little circle.
Not to mention I would rather be dead then have my son grow up as a Nazi, for example.

Alright, man...

You're saying that a person who will be killed by one of your relatives if he doesn't kill that relative is in the wrong for killing that person somehow?

How is that cowardice? If anything, that's bravery. The will to stand up and take down the people that are about to take you down.

So, if one of your relatives killed a single goddamn German during the war, they're just as bad; did they not ruin a family, also? You act like only American families were decimated. Many German families were probably worse off than yours! (Ahem, German Jews + Holocaust.) So, you probably should have no compassion for American adults from that time, either, including - hell, especially - your family, because they were likely directly involved in the ruination of a good few German families, being on the battlefield and whatnot.

Also, that German Jews bit brings me to another point; you have no compassion or mercy for any German adults at the time of the Holocaust? Not even the Jewish people who had to suffer the atrocities of the Nazi regime?

Perhaps you should get rid of the selfishness and look at things from a more universal perspective.

 

[Monty9]

This thread is relatively pointless. Most of the people who were actually involved in the war are dead or close to it. I have much sympathy for all of those that the Nazis persecuted and imprisoned/executed but it isnt right to continuelly throw the war in the face of modern Germany.

 

[Kevvers]

The Nazis were a direct consequence of a racist nation in severe depression. No, the Germans were not all Nazis, but I daresay most would have said "Something needs to be done about the Jewish problem". Have you seen the Nazi poster of Jesus crucified with the caption "Remember what they did to Jesus?", well I still think people are swayed by that stuff. Frankly you would serve the people who died in camps alot better by condemning racism than continually bashing the Germans.

 

[Xaryn Mar]

As far as I remember from my time at school, the germans (generalising here) saw that many jews had money and were quite well off while they themselves had nothing. This was because the jews (generalising again) were relatively good businespeople and mostly came through the depression without great losses.

The nazi's used this to get the people to hate the jews (more than was usual in most countries back then) by saying that "the jew (singular so as to make it easier to see them as one whole) had robbed the common german" and " that the jew would eat well and laugh at the poor german people". Of course this made people hate the jews, which is quite natural, jalousy is easily provoked. This in turn led to the "Krystal Nacht" where the jews where blamed for setting fire to the Reichtag and so on and so forth.

So a combination of good propaganda and huge differences between poor and rich led to the persecution of the jews.

Just to clarify: I don't side with the nazi's I just try to explain how the man on the street in pre-WW2 Germany saw things and that they were not evil, just trying to survive and improve their living.

 

[Riicek]

Band of Brothers did a pretty good job with this. (Reruns on History Channel, like, every three months.)


-- Alex

One example that popped into my mind really quickly. I think it's the second episode, where one of the American paratroopers is passing by a group of captured Germans and finds out that one of them was born and raised in the same state in the USA that he was. In the episode, the German's family had answered the call back to the motherland.

And honestly, that's just one example of many. Frankly, this is common knowledge (at least with everyone I'm around) and unless you go back a ways, I can't really think of any movies that depict all Germans as Nazi's. I can think of some that deal only with the Holocaust itself, but just because not all of Germany participated in that doesn't mean it's wrong to learn about it.

I really think that if you look around you'll realize that pretty much everyone is way past the Germany = Nazi mindset. This seems like a non-issue to me.

 

[Sakash]

The one thing that gets me, is that people only simply acknowledge that the Jewish people were killed. As if the sole purpose of Hitler was to simply eradicate them. Do people forget about all the black and homosexual people that were killed as well? Of coarse not. What Hitler was actually after after was a world ruled by Germany.

Also if we are going to condemn Germany about this FOREVER, then i think we should do it about other nations as well.
America: For practically eliminating the Native American, and not giving the black community any rights until the 1960's (and then some)
Britain for their tyrannical rule over the world, eg south africa and india
The Spanish for destroying an entire South American civilization.
Hell why don't just bring up Genghis Khan while were at it?

I'm Macedonian, and Turkey ruled over us and most of Europe for nearly 500 years. If you were to even speak your own language your tongue would be cut out!

I'm not saying we should forget the horrible events that have happened in history but we cant blame an entire people for what happened, and certainly not the current generation.

 

[Baby Tea]

Self-preservation is not cowardice. It's one of our most basic instincts. Compassion for the downtrodden victims of society is, sadly, not.
Are you honestly saying that you would put the lives of yourself and your family in danger for the sake of one unjustly persecuted stranger? Knowing full well that by being a sympathiser, you would accomplish absolutely nothing other than the destruction of your own family? Blaming people for looking after their own first and enemies of the state second is like blaming a lion for eating a zebra.

I'm going to jump in here to answer: Yeah, I would.

My pake (Dutch for grandpa) did! He hid Jews in his church, and his house. He stood up for what was right, even if he did it covertly.

Interesting side note: My pake was flying back to Canada after visiting Holland (After he immigrated to Canada) and was given the opportunity to tour the cockpit (Less security back then). He went to the front and got inside the cockpit...and the co-pilot was the Jewish boy they hid during the war.

True story.

While self preservation may not be cowardice, it isn't exactly courageous either.
All that is needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. (Not the direct quote, but you get what I'm saying)

 

[Gitsnik]

The one thing that gets me, is that people only simply acknowledge that the Jewish people were killed. As if the sole purpose of Hitler was to simply eradicate them. Do people forget about all the black and homosexual people that were killed as well? Of coarse not. What Hitler was actually after after was a world ruled by Germany.

We all remember the other minorities (I note that you didn't mention those who are/were considered mentally disabled being sterilised by the way, or the countless other minorities that were oppressed).

I wanted to clear that up, and to suggest people read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". I don't recall the author. Anyway there is a statistic in there, that something like 90% (IIRC) of the German Populace supported Adolf and co. at the end of the war, and felt that he would be the saviour of their people.

All this is a not worthy of note though, hollywood creates Nazi movies because they are popular (hollywood being in the US and all). For comparison "bollywood" doesn't seem to do any Nazi movies...

 

[anti_strunt]

Obviously all Germans weren't Nazis. Some even actively resisted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose
Still, as someone put it: "After the war, once the Nazis were defeated, it turned out that everyone in our neighbourhood had actually been an ardent anti-Nazi all along..." Heh.

Since the conquest of Poland three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in this country in the most bestial way ? The German people slumber on in their dull, stupid sleep and encourage these fascist criminals ? Each man wants to be exonerated of a guilt of this kind, each one continues on his way with the most placid, the calmest conscience. But he cannot be exonerated; he is guilty, guilty, guilty!

 

[Arsen]

It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

Are you suggesting that we blame every single American for the deaths of civilians in Iraq, or every Israeli person for the mistreatment of Palestinians?
Hell, lets blame all Russians for the persecution of priests in the USSR.
Oh! I know! It's my fault Fallout 3 is banned in Australia, I'm to blame for the proposed filter for Australian internet!

Yes, you are. Yes, the Russians are. Yes, the Americans are.

And to answer your question in much more detail as I am an Israeli and I did serve in the army. I am responsible for the actions of my country!

I voted my government into power, I allow this government to continue threw the payment of taxes and not rebelling. I serve the government by serving in the army and I am wholly responsible for it's actions, being a citizen means you have rights but also means you are part of the country in all the things it does.

Not going to get into the whole Israel-Palestine thing as I think it's off-topic ( even thou we're right).

I am not even going to justify a response to this.

 

[asiepshtain]

No I have no forgiveness nor compassion nor mercy for Germans who were alive and adults at the time. My family was decimated. My grandfather had six brothers, all dead. My grandmother had four brothers, all dead. Parents, dead. Cousins, dead. They got out, two whole families reduced to two people. And thats just one side of my family. Compassion was it?

You blame people for not wanting to be next? For valuing their own lives and their own families over others, like the vast, vast majority of people anywhere would, have done and still do?

Gonna go with yes.
Cowardice is no excuse, neither is following orders.
Free will is a ***** that way, you have responsibility beyond your own little circle.
Not to mention I would rather be dead then have my son grow up as a Nazi, for example.

Self-preservation is not cowardice. It's one of our most basic instincts. Compassion for the downtrodden victims of society is, sadly, not.
Are you honestly saying that you would put the lives of yourself and your family in danger for the sake of one unjustly persecuted stranger? Knowing full well that by being a sympathiser, you would accomplish absolutely nothing other than the destruction of your own family? Blaming people for looking after their own first and enemies of the state second is like blaming a lion for eating a zebra.

Choosing self-preservation over what you know is right is cowardice.
Would I risk my life for strangers? Yes. I have.
Served in both the military and volunteered for the police.
It's easy to say "I won't change anything, better do nothing" But it's never right.
Finally, we are not loins or zebras, we are humans, we are better. Free will, remember. Having the freedom to choose means having the responsibility of choosing right. Sorry.

 

[Stringytank]

a country which has one of the most brilliant cultures mankind has ever seen

We're talking about Germany, right?