The death of the fix-it-yourself generation

[halfeclipse]

Prius, mid-size. Uh-huh. Ever stood next to one? I've compared one with a metro rather in-depth... the size difference is minimal, the Prius has more small nooks and crannies for storage, but the geo can actually carry larger items... stock, the Prius is a bit quicker off the line, but with a couple of filter changes and a $20 muffler, the Geo becomes the faster of the two (and gets better gas mileage for the part swap).

Also, you can get a car with ABS, air-conditioning, air-tight and water tight without going overboard. The issue I have with newer cars and their creature comforts pretty much comes from things beyond those few basics... though I have seen such poorly implemented in cars from the 90s... with those, I could easily envision how it could be done better. When you want to control everything electronically, though... well, I know electronics better than I do cars. Built 'em for a living for quite awhile. Cars produce vibration, no matter how smooth a ride you can design, there's still more vibration than you'll find in an unmoving building. Vibration+electronics=degradation. I understand there are maintenance plans for this, but without the electronics present, the car is much, much easier to maintain... and electronics only provide a shortcut to mechanical efficiency. It can be done better without them.

Reliability... this is where we're getting entirely theoretical. I personally haven't seen a single car built after 1994 with over 300,000 miles on 'em... seen many, many older cars that fit the description, though. I've seen the final years of a 327 small block with over 600,000 miles on it. Lost compression in 1994, poor thing. I challenge you to find any passenger car engine running on gasoline and built after the 70s that lasted as long... and I say running on gasoline because a few hundred thousand miles is just the break-in period for a detroit diesel.

Hope you don't mind if I snip all that?

Sure, neighbor has one down the street. Not sure it's exact dimensions and I'm not about to grab a measuring tape and walk down but it's fair sized. gotta be somewhere around 4 and a half meters long, meter and a half tall and about the same width? Wheel base will be something like 2/3 the length so 2.75-3 meters? That's a mid size.

Not sure exactly how big the Metro is but it's way smaller then that as a 4 door, let alone the hatch back version.


Yea, but without the electronics you've got to deal with tune ups and more wear and tear on the vehicle from people doing stupid shit. Not having them makes it easier to maintain, but how many people have the knowledge and inclination to do that maintenance? Willing to bet your average Joe breaks about even on cost there.


Not sure how old that 327 was, but I assume it was early to late 60s unless someone put a whole lota miles on it real fast. Willing to bet most of them gave up the ghost before 300k miles. Hell, willing a bet more then a few needed major repairs before 150k. That one's going to be way over to the right side of the bell curve

You definitely wont see to many cars built after 1994 with more the 300k miles, but uh.. no shit? A car built in the mid 90's would need to do 17k-18k miles a year to have made 300k miles. Something from the early to mid 2000's would need to do something like 40k a year. People do something like 15k a year now, and something closer to 12k a few decades ago. Most of them haven't had chance to reach that many miles in North America let alone Europe or Japan, both of whom drive even less. Not to mention North America is far harsher then most other places, doubt I need to detail what roadsalt does to a car.


Your right that they don't build engines to last forever, but why the hell would they? It would cost a fucking fortune to do and there's no demand for it. A good engine should last 200k-300k miles, 400k with care and a bit of luck. You're looking at a 20-30 year lifespan there. How the hell much more do you want? Advances for automobiles are a bit slow but still very much there.

Say that gets up to 500k-600k average, that cars going to be 40-50 years old. Fon't know about you, but you don't hear many people saying "Man I really wish I could get a brand new second generation Country Squire." and I rather doubt people in the 50's were wishing they had a Model-freaking-T to drive.


Oh and, challenge accepted. Have a Honda from the 90's that may well have more miles then you've ever driven:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/10/million-mile-car/


To lazy to hit the wayback machine looking for links, but there's a Saab something (Probbaly one of the 900s) and a Toyota Starlet both from the 80's with about the same millage.

 

[DustyDrB]

This is so true. I've always fixed things. It's an invaluable skill set to have.
I remember when my 360 controller's right analogue stick became loose. I went on a forum to get some tips about fixing it, and everyone just laughed and told me to just buy a new one? Why? I already had the tools. I just needed the knowledge. I eventually found someone who helped. And then I fixed it. For free. It was satisfying.

People are too hung up on status symbols. It's why there are eleven year olds running around with iPhones. And it's why so many people worry their iPad is obsolete once next year's model comes out (not bashing on Apple itself, but many of the fanatics. I'm typing this out on a Macbook Pro. But it's a four year old one that I'm gonna use until it dies, because it does everything I need it to do). This isn't a new thing, of course. But it's a very fast-moving thing now with the way information and trends flow today.

Also, building things yourself is highly satisfying for me. This is why I plan on becoming a PC gamer very soon. Building my own guitar was a great experience. I was all giggly when I finally plugged it into my amp and started playing. I've always enjoyed working with my hands, though. And I was also inspired by my first college roommate. He built an amp, a theramin, an acoustic guitar, and several other things. It was always fun to come back from breaks to see what new project he was working on.

 

[loc978]

Spoiler: snip

Prius, mid-size. Uh-huh. Ever stood next to one? I've compared one with a metro rather in-depth... the size difference is minimal, the Prius has more small nooks and crannies for storage, but the geo can actually carry larger items... stock, the Prius is a bit quicker off the line, but with a couple of filter changes and a $20 muffler, the Geo becomes the faster of the two (and gets better gas mileage for the part swap).

Also, you can get a car with ABS, air-conditioning, air-tight and water tight without going overboard. The issue I have with newer cars and their creature comforts pretty much comes from things beyond those few basics... though I have seen such poorly implemented in cars from the 90s... with those, I could easily envision how it could be done better. When you want to control everything electronically, though... well, I know electronics better than I do cars. Built 'em for a living for quite awhile. Cars produce vibration, no matter how smooth a ride you can design, there's still more vibration than you'll find in an unmoving building. Vibration+electronics=degradation. I understand there are maintenance plans for this, but without the electronics present, the car is much, much easier to maintain... and electronics only provide a shortcut to mechanical efficiency. It can be done better without them.

Reliability... this is where we're getting entirely theoretical. I personally haven't seen a single car built after 1994 with over 300,000 miles on 'em... seen many, many older cars that fit the description, though. I've seen the final years of a 327 small block with over 600,000 miles on it. Lost compression in 1994, poor thing. I challenge you to find any passenger car engine running on gasoline and built after the 70s that lasted as long... and I say running on gasoline because a few hundred thousand miles is just the break-in period for a detroit diesel.

Hope you don't mind if I snip all that?

Sure, neighbor has one down the street. Not sure it's exact dimensions and I'm not about to grab a measuring tape and walk down but it's fair sized. gotta be somewhere around 4 and a half meters long, meter and a half tall and about the same width? Wheel base will be something like 2/3 the length so 2.75-3 meters? That's a mid size.

Not sure exactly how big the Metro is but it's way smaller then that as a 4 door, let alone the hatch back version.


Yea, but without the electronics you've got to deal with tune ups and more wear and tear on the vehicle from people doing stupid shit. Not having them makes it easier to maintain, but how many people have the knowledge and inclination to do that maintenance? Willing to bet your average Joe breaks about even on cost there.


Not sure how old that 327 was, but I assume it was early to late 60s unless someone put a whole lota miles on it real fast. Willing to bet most of them gave up the ghost before 300k miles. Hell, willing a bet more then a few needed major repairs before 150k. That one's going to be way over to the right side of the bell curve

You definitely wont see to many cars built after 1994 with more the 300k miles, but uh.. no shit? A car built in the mid 90's would need to do 17k-18k miles a year to have made 300k miles. Something from the early to mid 2000's would need to do something like 40k a year. People do something like 15k a year now, and something closer to 12k a few decades ago. Most of them haven't had chance to reach that many miles in North America let alone Europe or Japan, both of whom drive even less. Not to mention North America is far harsher then most other places, doubt I need to detail what roadsalt does to a car.


Your right that they don't build engines to last forever, but why the hell would they? It would cost a fucking fortune to do and there's no demand for it. A good engine should last 200k-300k miles, 400k with care and a bit of luck. You're looking at a 20-30 year lifespan there. How the hell much more do you want? Advances for automobiles are a bit slow but still very much there.

Say that gets up to 500k-600k average, that cars going to be 40-50 years old. Fon't know about you, but you don't hear many people saying "Man I really wish I could get a brand new second generation Country Squire." and I rather doubt people in the 50's were wishing they had a Model-freaking-T to drive.


Oh and, challenge accepted. Have a Honda from the 90's that may well have more miles then you've ever driven:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/10/million-mile-car/


To lazy to hit the wayback machine looking for links, but there's a Saab something (Probbaly one of the 900s) and a Toyota Starlet both from the 80's with about the same millage.

All I can say on the metro vs prius front is that I have extensive first-hand experience with both, and I stand by all of my previous statements (and I'm referring to the hatchback versions). One qualifier: the Prius I have experience with is the 2009 model, and I only know one person who owns one. Metro/Sprint/Swifts, 1986-1994, many different examples in two configurations (hatchback and convertible... the sedans were worthless, they only came with the 4-cylinder engine, which was a pretty average 30ish mpg PoS).

The 327 was from 1964, and (at least in my family) 30 years and 5-600 thousand miles is a pretty common lifespan for a small-block chevy. There's a 350 still in the family from 1966 in my uncle's truck that has been rebuilt once in its life (admittedly with much lower mileage, but not showing any signs of failing soon), and the 283 in my van is a hand-me-down from 1968, also running strong still. I've always considered that to be pretty standard, and my family to be pretty average, but maybe I'm wrong in that, maybe what I think of as the average joe never really was average outside of a certain location in a certain era.

...never heard of a country squire (google search yields restaurants, I assume the car is about as well-built as a Yugo), but I know a lot of people who want to get their hands on 1960s automobiles over here. Believe it or not, it's not always a lead sled muscle car they're looking for, either. Lots of light chassis ripe for putting some newer tech into, or even just a small 90s Honda engine to crank 50mpg out of.

Ah, and road salt. Quite illegal where I live in the states (the northwest), not that I do much city driving in any case. That's actually one of the things that pissed me off about my mini when I got it. Driven in the UK in the 70s and 80s, horribly corroded by road salt when I got it. Put a lot of work into correcting that.

Like I said, I see a lot of advancement in technology for automobiles, just not in the end product... unless you count racing, but I'm talking strictly reliability and efficiency here. Good find on that Honda, by the way. I figured there'd be something like that from the 90s, I just hadn't heard of it. I suppose time will tell if anything of this era reaches that mileage, but (to use a cliche) I'll eat one of my many and various hats if it's a "hybrid" as we know 'em now.