The Degradation of Basic Education

[OmniscientOstrich]

You presume to assume a lot. I am not just referring to comment areas. I am also continually upgrading my education, so it appears that you know not of what you speak.

Okay, one thing I will assume is that this comment was directed at me. In future, you might want to try quoting someone when adressing them on this site. Now then, even if it's not merely comment sections, you can't use the people you encounter on the Internet as an accurate reflection of the academic aptitude and diligence of modern students, especially when the core issue you have seems to solely revolve around punctuation. Secondly, I said that you come across as the type of person who seems to be so mired in nostalgia that they make sweeping generalisations about today's youth and the difficulty of their schoolwork without any experience of what they have to face, as this is something that I encounter quite often. But I did not claim that this was entirely true as I have no knowledge of you or what you do, other than what I can educe from your post. Which brings me to my next point, I find it laughable that you're calling me presumptuous your entire disposition seems predicated upon assumptions. The Internet as you said is an international community, even if all of the people you have seen were native English speakers they could still be American, British, Australian or any other country other than Canada so you have no means of judging their education system (for the record I'm English). Again, at most you can adjudge that their English skills are shoddy but you have no real means of guaging their proficiency in any other subject. If you are in fact continually uprgading your education, then I'm amazed you didn't include that information in your original post, because as it stands using posts on the Internet as an example to illustrate how the quality of your countries education has fallen makes for an incredibly poor argument.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Seems kind of ironic, posting this on a site called Zero Punctuation...

When did they change the name of the Escapist?

OT: First of all, your being a crotchety old man. No, shut up you are. You can't tell because you are the old man.

Secondly, your generation is not all roses and sunshine either there are just as many airheads but society treated them differently and they over time they have changed. The culture of this generation is different and its eventual fate as to what will become of them is unknown. You're comparing cultural and temporal apples and oranges.

Thirdly, this is the era where if you want to know something you can literally look it up in 10 seconds on the internet. There is more access to information now then ever. If people want to know, they they will learn.

Fourthly, EVOLUTION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!! You are discussing cultural changes not biological ones and you are referring to a few decades of stable population growth.

Fifthly, I've heard this complaint before. Human perception of events is about as accurate as trying to shoot a target from half way across the world while aiming in the opposite direction and holding a fish. Your selective filter in your brain is the greatest enemy to yourself that will ever exist. Find some hard numbers or that your own perception and prejudice is going to taint all your judgments especially on broad generalizations like this.

Sixthly, this is the internet, it has given birth to shorthand languages like textSpeak. That language is no more right or wrong then regular English. The internet has forms of communication and rules of writing that are different from everyday conversation. Don't say that people can't write on the internet and are therefore dumb because how people type on the internet is different from normal conversations or situations.

Seventhly, yeah your being a grammar/spelling Nazi. It's not a good argument for me to amke but you need to know that is what you're doing.

 

[ZRShinigami]

I hate writing long posts, so...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

 

[Caduceus55]

This was intended to be a general statement, but let me clarify a few points. The observations were not only gathered from the internet, but from what I have observed, or heard in conversation, in everyday life. The internet was only an example close at hand and one we are all familiar with.

The Canadian educational system is deemed to be one of the tops in the world, in regards to it's graduation success rate. That however, as in most data, is a bit misleading. As one of the respondents remarked, with the "no child left behind" mandate that is all too pervasive in the school systems here and elsewhere, the bottom line suffers. Too many children are leaving the system ill-equipped and less educated than they should have been, in order move them along the "conveyor belt of life".

Higher education is better than ever, for those who can afford it, or for those who qualify based on their testing, which creates a catch-22 scenario. Point being, subjects or skills that were once cognitive or spatial in nature and required you to retain them, are now done by a machine and no longer require you to have, or use, that particular skill.

It's a slippery slope IMO. What was designed to make our lives easier, has actually reduced a part of ourselves and will continue to do so at an exponential rate if we do not make a conscious effort to thwart it.

Some, is the "instant-gratification" as pointed out, as well as a limited attention span, while other examples are a lack of education or mere laziness. All are choices however. How many people do you know who have read less than a dozen books in their lifetime? I know several and it's sad.

 

[BabyRaptor]

Snip

Attacking someone because they dared express an opinion counter to yours is cool.

On topic, it's sheer laziness. And it's pathetic, really. Typing out whole words isn't hard, unlike your math example. Some people are genuinely bad at math. I'm one of them. But there's not an excuse for just not being assed to properly talk.

 

[The_Echo]

snip

You're a pretty cool guy in my book.

Guys, the bottom line is this: it isn't very hard at all to use proper spelling and grammar, something that most of you were taught in grade school, and probably kept up consistently until your advent into the virtual world.

I'll admit that I probably don't have the best grammar in town, but if someone calls me out on it, I certainly take the advice and learn from my mistakes.

A lot of people seem to follow the idea that 'it's the Internet, it doesn't really matter.' That's not really correct, though.

Grammar exists for a reason, and no matter how you justify it, ignoring grammar (especially the very basics) is nothing more than laziness. If nothing else, think of it this way: English is a relatively new language; it's still taking shape. It hasn't had the time to solidify like much older languages. (Yes, every language continually evolves, but I think it's safe to say English is doing so at a quicker pace.) Who in the hell is going to want their native language to look like "i wuz walkin 2 teh store n i saw sum dogs 4 sale"? It's an extreme example, sure, but it's a possibility. I don't like that possibility at all.

 

[Sariteiya]

On the topic of the Starbucks thing, I work in retail, and while I'm capable of calculating change, the computer is a hell of a lot faster than I am. If you don't want an extra wait, then don't complain about me not laying down the mad calculations. Assuming you meant calculating the amount to give back, not how to actually make change, (If I need to give you 5.76 back which coins do I return to you etc.) If they don't know that, then that's kinda sad.

In terms of education, what I've noticed is we have a school system that oddly seems to Alienate both the challenged students, but also the very intelligent students. I watched tons of frankly brilliant peers of mine get completely turned off by school because they weren't being engaged, and they were sick of the Bristol Board Poster bullshit. There's something wrong when the kid who can code his own video games is failing computer science. The only kids who seem to flourish in the school system are kids who are willing to play the game. The ones that memorize facts until exam time and then completely forget everything they ever knew. It's frustrating. We aren't instilling a thirst for learning in these kids, we're teaching them to play along to arbitrary rules until we say you can stop.

 

[Kyle 2175]

To at least some degree, at least here (Scotland) the thing with English is that it's generally not taught in a very interesting manner, and for many children and teenagers, they don't really care about anything that isn't fun. The other problem is that many of them don't read in their own time, and don't find books that interest them to help them pick up spelling and grammar in a more interesting way.

I've heard some people with quite literally the opposite attitude to yours, some people on Facebook literally get angry and insult you if you use proper spelling and grammar, or if you use any word long than "lol". Why? I have absolutely no idea, apparently intelligible writing is an affront to the reign of barely understandable "leet" and "text speak" on that site.

 

[BonsaiK]

While scouring the internet for news and information to include in my Blog, I am constantly astonished at the deplorable grammar and lack of punctuation. Especially in an era of "spellcheck" and where even your browser can point out your spelling mistakes, these are continually left unchecked. If you can't spell a word properly, don't use it, or if you want to use it, learn how to spell it.

Now I know the internet is an international community, so some of this can be attributed to those whose English is not their first language, but there is far too much evidence for this to be the case in all instances. Forming a complete sentence is fast becoming a thing of the past, except of course in areas that require it. Is it lack of knowledge, lack of guidance or simple laziness? Whatever the answer, it's rampant.

This trend also spills over into simple math equations or transactions. My extra-large coffee costs $1.59 and if I give the server a toonie (yes, I'm Canadian), I watched in utter dismay as they check, not once, but twice or three times at the register, in order to calculate my change. Again, this is not all the time, but enough to be very concerning as to the fate of this coming generation and the next to follow.

I guess I'm just old school, as I did not learn my mathematics on a calculator, nor did I hand in assignments typed and printed from a computer. I learned my times-tables, practiced my cursive writing and had red marker put on my papers where punctuation should have gone. Our reliance on computer-generated tasks has seriously degraded our fundamental skills. As evolution has shown, when a skill or talent is no longer needed, or employed, it withers and dies.

Seems kind of ironic, posting this on a site called Zero Punctuation...

Thoughts?

"Degradation" is spelled wrong in the title.

When breaking up multiple ideas in a sentence, use "and" to separate the final two ideas, and commas for the ideas prior to the last two.

"Internet" should always be capitalised.

Those living in glass houses...

 

[Zyquux]

Snip

This was in 1994.

OT: I think the biggest reason is, as others have mentioned, the way the (American, at least) school system works. As far as I can gather from the Advanced Placement classes and tests, you're not supposed to LEARN things, just memorize it. For example, I memorized enough facts and dates to pass the AP World History test, but now I don't remember anything. Another problem is the standards that schools have to meet. All schools have to have their teachers teach certain subjects by the end of the year. Even if the students don't understand, they have to move on to other topics to fit in all the subjects. I won't deny that a reliance on technology plays a big factor, though.

Go read a book sometime, people!
That leads to the issue of instant-gratification, but that's a topic for another day.

 

[electric_warrior]

Education hasn't degraded, I'm sure that most people have a perfectly good grasp of grammar when needs be. On the internet, however, perfect grammar isn't necessary so is sacrificed in the name of ease and speed.

 

[P.Tsunami]

While scouring the internet for news and information to include in my Blog, I am constantly astonished at the deplorable grammar and lack of punctuation. Especially in an era of "spellcheck" and where even your browser can point out your spelling mistakes, these are continually left unchecked. If you can't spell a word properly, don't use it, or if you want to use it, learn how to spell it.

Now I know the internet is an international community, so some of this can be attributed to those whose English is not their first language, but there is far too much evidence for this to be the case in all instances. Forming a complete sentence is fast becoming a thing of the past, except of course in areas that require it. Is it lack of knowledge, lack of guidance or simple laziness? Whatever the answer, it's rampant.

This trend also spills over into simple math equations or transactions. My extra-large coffee costs $1.59 and if I give the server a toonie (yes, I'm Canadian), I watched in utter dismay as they check, not once, but twice or three times at the register, in order to calculate my change. Again, this is not all the time, but enough to be very concerning as to the fate of this coming generation and the next to follow.

I guess I'm just old school, as I did not learn my mathematics on a calculator, nor did I hand in assignments typed and printed from a computer. I learned my times-tables, practiced my cursive writing and had red marker put on my papers where punctuation should have gone. Our reliance on computer-generated tasks has seriously degraded our fundamental skills. As evolution has shown, when a skill or talent is no longer needed, or employed, it withers and dies.

Seems kind of ironic, posting this on a site called Zero Punctuation...

Thoughts?

Thoughts? I want you to go over your own post with a fine-toothed comb for grammar errors. Hint: There are a lot of them, you big hypocrite.

Also, the site isn't called Zero Punctuation. It's called The Escapist. I'm not sure you should be first in line to whine about the quality of modern-day education.

 

[Caduceus55]

"Degradation" is spelled wrong in the title.

When breaking up multiple ideas in a sentence, use "and" to separate the final two ideas, and commas for the ideas prior to the last two.

"Internet" should always be capitalised.

Those living in glass houses...

Seriously? Yes, the spelling of degradation has been covered multiple times now. I can only assume you did not bother to read it all, just wanted to get your two cents in. The whole point of this was not to pick apart blocks of text and their structure and punctuation, but rather how a sentence or comment is conveyed, or whether in some cases, even legible.

There is a reason there are copywriters, proofreaders and editors.

Nice how you furthered the discussion though. Kudos!

 

[Caduceus55]

Thoughts? I want you to go over your own post with a fine-toothed comb for grammar errors. Hint: There are a lot of them, you big hypocrite.

Also, the site isn't called Zero Punctuation. It's called The Escapist. I'm not sure you should be first in line to whine about the quality of modern-day education.

I don't see any besides degradation, perhaps you would care to bold them for me. As for my Zero Punctuation faux pas, that again has been covered and is a navigational error, rather than an educated one.

Lot's of lazy people here, only furthering my point...

 

[P.Tsunami]

Imagine a picture of a kitten here, since the site has been crapping out and causing me to multiple post.

 

[P.Tsunami]

Thoughts? I want you to go over your own post with a fine-toothed comb for grammar errors. Hint: There are a lot of them, you big hypocrite.

Also, the site isn't called Zero Punctuation. It's called The Escapist. I'm not sure you should be first in line to whine about the quality of modern-day education.

I don't see any besides degradation, perhaps you would care to bold them for me. As for my Zero Punctuation faux pas, that again has been covered and is a navigational error, rather than an educated one.

Lot's of lazy people here, only furthering my point...

Let's get this perfectly clear. You couldn't be bothered to properly check your post for spelling and grammar. You couldn't be bothered to even properly check what site you're on. Now, you can't be bothered (or lack the ability) to clean up your post.

And we're the lazy ones? Get real.

 

[Rayne870]

This trend also spills over into simple math equations or transactions. My extra-large coffee costs $1.59 and if I give the server a toonie (yes, I'm Canadian), I watched in utter dismay as they check, not once, but twice or three times at the register, in order to calculate my change. Again, this is not all the time, but enough to be very concerning as to the fate of this coming generation and the next to follow.

When it comes to forums i consider myself lazy. i will correct spelling however i do not focus much on capitalization. with spell-check there really isn't much of an excuse for improper spelling however as it is pretty automatic, even though people like my former boss will claim that it is always wrong.

as for the coffee anecdote, if that was a Tim Horton's you were lucky they got your coffee right. I have actually received a bagel b.e.l.t. from them without the bacon! Change failures are a regular thing these days for cashiers, it's sad really.

 

[BonsaiK]

"Degradation" is spelled wrong in the title.

When breaking up multiple ideas in a sentence, use "and" to separate the final two ideas, and commas for the ideas prior to the last two.

"Internet" should always be capitalised.

Those living in glass houses...

Seriously? Yes, the spelling of degradation has been covered multiple times now. I can only assume you did not bother to read it all, just wanted to get your two cents in. The whole point of this was not to pick apart blocks of text and their structure and punctuation, but rather how a sentence or comment is conveyed, or whether in some cases, even legible.

There is a reason there are copywriters, proofreaders and editors.

Nice how you furthered the discussion though. Kudos!

There's nothing about the differences in the effectiveness of conveying ideas in your OP. There's also nothing about legibility either, which makes sense as you clearly state in the OP that you're talking about the Internet. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you meant to insert these elements and it just slipped your mind.

The answer to your question about why it's happening is obvious, and it's the same as the answer to the question "why don't all humans know how to grow their own food?". If a skill is no longer required for survival and prosperity, it will gradually be discarded by all those except the people who require it. This doesn't represent a decline of society, it represents in increase in specialisation as society becomes more knowledgeable and complex and people thus need to fill more specific roles, and is actually a signifier of society's evolution. In the days thousands of years ago when society was very simple, all of humankind's collective knowledge could probably fit inside one paperback or even be memorised by a very smart individual. Nowadays the wealth of information collectively known by humans is so extreme that it makes sense to pick and choose what is most relevant, and discard the optional knowledge (or just keep it in reference material for future use if needed). In the example of a cashier, knowing how to operate the register is therefore more important than knowing how to add.

 

[Lim3]

The site is not called zero punctuation. It wouldn't have taken much effort to look at the url address. And "degradation" is spelled wrong in the title.

Also the topic of grammar and spelling has been covered a myriad of times, e.g. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.309302-Grammar-Spelling-Nazis-should-just-get-over-themselves?page=4#12493706

On the note of numeracy and checking the numbers; it's simple. I work at a cafe and whilst I do all the math in my head I always check. You know why? When you have a huge que building up behind a customer, and you've been on your feet all day its best to double check change. People are not happy when you short change them, and your boss is not happy when you (long?) change them. Also it only takes one mistake and the till will not line up.

In case you haven't noticed the internet is crowded with children. Both literal and metaphorical. These children do not appreciate grammar, spelling or punctuation. They may grow out of this, or it may just be due to a generational culture that's the result of twitter and attempting to fit your message into one text message, rather than 2.

The general consensus on the internet of people who cannot be bothered to form a coherent sentence is to simply ignore them. If they cannot be bothered to form a sentence, or at least attempt to use actual words, then I will ignore them.

Edit:

You presume to assume a lot. I am not just referring to comment areas. I am also continually upgrading my education, so it appears that you know not of what you speak.

Please quote next time, I can't follow the discussion. And please do not double post. There is an edit button.