The Dialogue Wheel

[blackrave]

Hm?
I'm sure BG and NWN had more dialogue options than 6

(btw I edited my post with some more ideas about this whilst you're posting.)

I'm not saying that the old RPGs didn't have the ability to use more dialogue options than 6, but those popped up like 10 times in the entire game. The default number of options tended to be 3-5 which you would use for 90% of the game.

And the post-wheel games sort of keeps up that tradition. In Mass Effect they normally had 3 options, often had 5 but every now and then you'd reach a stage where the 6th option would then take you to a further 5 options of dialogue, so you had 10 total.

That logic is a slippery slope, because we can can follow it even further
Hey 90% of the game is killing and looting, lets remove dialogues all together
(I'm looking at you FOT:BoS)

Mechanics needs to be robust enough to allow such instances when there are more dialogue options necessary

 

[ryo02]

dialogue wheels are fine so long as they tell you clearly what the character will say that's not all ways the case though.

so I want to be a little bit angry with this guy let him know he's a prick (because he was being a prick) the dialogue wheel seems to have this option so I select it then the game decides I wanted to be racist NOOOO DAMN IT GAME (a mass effect game I don't recall which one or what part.

 

[BrotherRool]

That logic is a slippery slope, because we can can follow it even further
Hey 90% of the game is killing and looting, lets remove dialogues all together
(I'm looking at you FOT:BoS)

Mechanics needs to be robust enough to allow such instances when there are more dialogue options necessary

The Mass Effect wheel system allows for that, it allows for 10 options total which is as much as they need for any situation. It's not really a slippery slope to design you game to operate smoothly for 90% and a little janky for 10% as opposed to making the whole thing slightly unsuited for 90% of the dialogue and completely smooth in that 105 of scenarios.

 

[blackrave]

That logic is a slippery slope, because we can can follow it even further
Hey 90% of the game is killing and looting, lets remove dialogues all together
(I'm looking at you FOT:BoS)

Mechanics needs to be robust enough to allow such instances when there are more dialogue options necessary

The Mass Effect wheel system allows for that, it allows for 10 options total which is as much as they need for any situation. It's not really a slippery slope to design you game to operate smoothly for 90% and a little janky for 10% as opposed to making the whole thing slightly unsuited for 90% of the dialogue and completely smooth in that 105 of scenarios.

???
How my proposed system is not smooth?
Need 6 options? remove upper and lower options (that would be basically what we had in ME)
Need 4 options? remove all diagonal options (one from Deus Ex HR)
Need 2 options? leave only left and right ones
Need 1 option? Really? REALLY??? 1 option isn't really an option. Just continue dialogue, dammit!
But if needed you could add 2/3 more options in same amount of space.
Soooooo, how is it worse?

 

[BrotherRool]

???
How my proposed system is not smooth?
Need 6 options? remove upper and lower options (that would be basically what we had in ME)
Need 4 options? remove all diagonal options (one from Deus Ex HR)
Need 2 options? leave only left and right ones
Need 1 option? Really? REALLY??? 1 option isn't really an option. Just continue dialogue, dammit!
But if needed you could add 2/3 more options in same amount of space.
Soooooo, how is it worse?

Oh I thought your idea was to have 8 options all the time. If you mean just rearrange the wheel so you can stick more options on in an emergency then that's fine (although I think the system of 'more' and then another 5 options is probably just as good without the programming).

If you mean have 8 options all the time though, considering how rare the situation is, I think you're just making it more fiddly to select the option you want normally (because it takes up a smaller % of the wheel)

 

[blackrave]

???
How my proposed system is not smooth?
Need 6 options? remove upper and lower options (that would be basically what we had in ME)
Need 4 options? remove all diagonal options (one from Deus Ex HR)
Need 2 options? leave only left and right ones
Need 1 option? Really? REALLY??? 1 option isn't really an option. Just continue dialogue, dammit!
But if needed you could add 2/3 more options in same amount of space.
Soooooo, how is it worse?

Oh I thought your idea was to have 8 options all the time. If you mean just rearrange the wheel so you can stick more options on in an emergency then that's fine (although I think the system of 'more' and then another 5 options is probably just as good without the programming).

If you mean have 8 options all the time though, considering how rare the situation is, I think you're just making it more fiddly to select the option you want normally (because it takes up a smaller % of the wheel)

[facepalm]
1.Read my original post (I wrote clarification after 2nd point)
2.Use logic, I've heard it's super effective. What about binary choices? Do you thought that I proposed 4 "yes" and 4 "no"? Although that would be kinda funny if each time you could answer in different tones and that would result in slightly different outcomes.

 

[BrotherRool]

[facepalm]
1.Read my original post (I wrote clarification after 2nd point)
2.Use logic, I've heard it's super effective. What about binary choices? Do you thought that I proposed 4 "yes" and 4 "no"? Although that would be kinda funny if each time you could answer in different tones and that would result in slightly different outcomes.

Um I seem to be offending you a little in this conversation which wasn't my intention, but I did reread your post again and you do make it sound like you'd expect 8-9 options in lots of situations rather than just a couple of times in the game. And what I mean about having 8 options making the game more janky is that if you have a wheel divided into 8 segments, it's harder to select any one section with something like an analogue stick.

When I said oh that my solve the problem is then I thought you were suggesting the wheel divides itself up into different shaped segments depending on the number of choices, as opposed to just leaving the spot for the space blank. This would then fix that problem and this was what I thought you were talking about later, which I hadn't initially assumed.

I would also like to point out that up Paragon/down Renegade is a pretty good way of communicating the tone of replies, especially since games like KotoR/Jade Empire/Mass Effect aren't well designed for you to leave paragon/renegade paths very much. Chris Avellone has mentioned in interviews that he always tries to provide a 'nice' 'aggressive' and 'neutral' response in those sort of games (and then add other options) and I assume that's what Bioware does too. In which case, you might as well order them neatly

Dragon Age: Origins has a different design that is much less about set paths, I haven't played Dragon Age 2, but I heard they went back to a ME style design. Still if you did have a DA:O style game with a wheel I reckon you can still arrange the wheel into roughly tonal segments for an improvement to everyone

 

[blackrave]

Um I seem to be offending you a little in this conversation which wasn't my intention

Calm down, I know this is internet and everyone here is offended and insulted and harassed and so on, but you have never offended me even a bit.
That is the problem of communicating in written form. We can't be sure what tone something was meant.
So let me play an Elcor a bit
"Humorously, use logic human, I've heard it's super effective"

but I did reread your post again and you do make it sound like you'd expect 8-9 options in lots of situations rather than just a couple of times in the game.

To be honest I really would like more options, more often.
Nuances sometimes are important after all

And what I mean about having 8 options making the game more janky is that if you have a wheel divided into 8 segments, it's harder to select any one section with something like an analogue stick.

How?
Now you need to push stick left, right, left-up, left-down, right-up, right-down. If 8 segments would be used it would add up and down. How that would be more complicated?
Basically for every 45* there would be and option. And pushing stick in 45* angle is fairly simple.

When I said oh that my solve the problem is then I thought you were suggesting the wheel divides itself up into different shaped segments depending on the number of choices, as opposed to just leaving the spot for the space blank. This would then fix that problem and this was what I thought you were talking about later, which I hadn't initially assumed.

I really meant to leave unused spaces blank.
Because re-dividing wheel would add additional problems
What if there's only 5 or 7 options?
Imagine manipulating such wheel with irregular degree angles. Horrifying.

I would also like to point out that up Paragon/down Renegade is a pretty good way of communicating the tone of replies, especially since games like KotoR/Jade Empire/Mass Effect aren't well designed for you to leave paragon/renegade paths very much. Chris Avellone has mentioned in interviews that he always tries to provide a 'nice' 'aggressive' and 'neutral' response in those sort of games (and then add other options) and I assume that's what Bioware does too. In which case, you might as well order them neatly

But that is limited binary system (pseudo-2D how call it)
I personally prefer true 2D system (like in D&D- evil/good and lawful/chaotic) or even 3D system (maybe add social popularity to D&D mix- you might be lawful good, but society might consider you a jerk, or opposite- chaotic evil character, that is extremely popular among people)

P.S. I'm sorry, I promise to never pick apart your comment again in such way.

 

[BrotherRool]

And what I mean about having 8 options making the game more janky is that if you have a wheel divided into 8 segments, it's harder to select any one section with something like an analogue stick.

How?
Now you need to push stick left, right, left-up, left-down, right-up, right-down. If 8 segments would be used it would add up and down. How that would be more complicated?
Basically for every 45* there would be and option. And pushing stick in 45* angle is fairly simple.

See I sort of disagree with this. Pushing at 90° is simple, but it's the 45^° diagonal angles that I think actually might be slightly fiddly if the wheel stays the same size they normally are and with the margin of error sticks normally have.

Not in a 'gah this is really frustrating to click way' but that it slows down the process just fractionally every time you do it.

I don't really know how to prove/disprove that though.

 

[blackrave]

See I sort of disagree with this. Pushing at 90° is simple, but it's the 45^° diagonal angles that I think actually might be slightly fiddly if the wheel stays the same size they normally are and with the margin of error sticks normally have.

Not in a 'gah this is really frustrating to click way' but that it slows down the process just fractionally every time you do it.

I don't really know how to prove/disprove that though.

Are sticks THAT imprecise?
I knew it wasn't laser surgery material, but still...

 

[Fasckira]

I liked how the first Discworld point-n-click handled it; when you went to speak to someone, it showed various emotive icons to represent the feel of your comment. For example, the picture of the laughing jack in the box was typical some kind of nasty jokey comment.

It failed in regards that typically in the first Discworld game you had to exhaust all the dialogue options anyway, but it was a nice approach.

 

[BrotherRool]

Are sticks THAT imprecise?
I knew it wasn't laser surgery material, but still...

I can't decide =D I just went downstairs and tried waggling a stick and now it does seem like it should be easy enough. But I'm remember some vague feeling of frustration when selecting dialogue in Mass Effect (not like a big thing, more like when you playing a webgame that is just lagging out the teensiest bit), which I'd been putting down to selecting the areas, but it does seem ridiculous now I'm thinking about it.

Maybe it's just the annoyance of having to move something for a fraction of a second before I can click a button

I guess I could start up Mass Effect if I really wanted to find out, but I'm not quite that interested. You're probably best off discounting anything I've said =D