The Downfall of Japanese Games?

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ExistentialCrisis

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Dec 29, 2008
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Disclaimer: By the time I read this, I had already watched the new ZP, read through the original post, then had to take a break to run an errand, so I'm sure there are lots of folks who have replied by now. So just for the record, I'm responding to the OP.

Your cynicism is noted and I have to say that it's a little unfair. Nintendo has every right to try and make money; I mean, that's what a company is, right? If they do things that seem like they're taking advantage of a demographic, so be it; I'm personally not surprised and never once thought better of them. Nintendo isn't anyone's child that dropped out of Ivy League to sell crack or something; treat them for what they are. : / It's okay to dislike their games, but why try to blame it on something that's expected?

I also think your hostility to Square is sort of the same way. Final Fantasy isn't the horrible monster that stole attention from those great games you listed. Final Fantasy grew up alongside these classics, not against them and they live on today: Chrono Trigger is still popular enough that it's having not one but TWO re-releases (FF Chronicles and the upcoming DS version), Xenogears lived on in its horribly mutated parallel universe version Xenosaga, and FF Tactics spawned two sequels, a flagship FF title, and a PSP re-release. Just because we aren't up to Chrono Trigger XIII is that so bad? :( Square seems to care about non-FF titles, but it's just dumb to abandon their flagship franchise to pursue what were originally pretty much side projects made by FF developers (or in FF Tactics' case, a rival to Ogre Battle).

I also think the opposite of your assessment for the DS and PSP titles; to me, they seem more like the "beating of the VERY DEAD Final Fantasy horse". I enjoyed the GBA re-releases and their classic flavor (with a few modern tweeks) and the chance to play the true-blue Final Fantasy 3 on the DS, but the PSP titles were pushing it in my book. Remember that they were part of the "anniversary" going on for the franchise, which to me comes across as at least a little pretentious.

I'd also re-assess my RPGs if I were you. Final Fantasy isn't the only franchise to have "frequently emotionally distressed" (I don't use the "e" word, some of us realize it's a music genre, not a mental state) characters in ridiculous storylines. If you ask me, it's a staple of the genre with some rare exceptions. : / In fact, aren't all video game plots kind of ridiculous in the end?

I can't comment on the PS3 since I don't have one, but I'm in the same boat where all I play are Xbox 360 and PC games these days. The last good game I played by a company that happened to be based in Japan was Tales of Vesperia; I normally cringe at anime-style games, but with its epic story, dynamic and likable characters, and frantic battle system I was addicted all the way to the end credits. I also enjoyed Megaman 9 a lot. :)

Getting to the main topic at hand...

I will say that you might be right about Japanese-originating games going downhill a bit outside of their country and I blame it on the lack of variety in the market. Nipponichi and Atlas seem to be trying, but they only seem to pick games that have a niche following or a fanciful anime aesthetic. As for mainstream Japanese games, they seem fond of experimenting and making things fancier as Nintendo and Square-Enix demonstrate. I don't hold it against them to flex graphic muscle, but I cringe when trailers and commercials are just cut-scenes and no gameplay.

However, it might be that tastes and interests change in time. You sound like you're more interested in companies that release a healthy deal of information to go with their games, or at least games that were made by companies that have a different theory to their development. I say that game design is becoming dynamic and varied as more companies join the market and now that gamers have a choice in the matter, they're feeling out what they like and don't like in a game.

TL;DR:
Japanese games aren't going down hill, gamers are just realizing they have other choices.
 

mattttherman3

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Dec 16, 2008
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Well I have to say that there is one Japanese franchise I still enjoy, anyone who makes a DB/DBZ/GT game, Just kidding, the real one is whoever makes the Tales games(not including tales of symphonia 2). Also I don't know if anyone has noticed the true crap that the wii has, wii fit for example, a game to get kids to excersise, i won't play it because it has nothing i want in it, other games like hannah montana, you might as well just rename the wii and call it Fisher Price Fun Box
 

BallPtPenTheif

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For the most part, some game developers have fooled themselves into believing that arhcaic gaming conventions are actually defining aspects of a genre. This causes a technological stagnation and a gameplay perspective that falls out of step with modern gamers.

For example, there are still games to this day who just recreate palette swapped enemies to symbolize more difficult iterations of those enemies. However, this practice was originally done in order to save memory but now its because people are lazy and they think that gamers are fine with it.
 

LucanDesmond

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Oct 19, 2008
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I understand your point ExistentialCrisis. I have to disagree with you on one big point however. Square focusing on FF too much.
ExistentialCrisis said:
I also think your hostility to Square is sort of the same way. Final Fantasy isn't the horrible monster that stole attention from those great games you listed. Final Fantasy grew up alongside these classics, not against them and they live on today: Chrono Trigger is still popular enough that it's having not one but TWO re-releases (FF Chronicles and the upcoming DS version), Xenogears lived on in its horribly mutated parallel universe version Xenosaga, and FF Tactics spawned two sequels, a flagship FF title, and a PSP re-release. Just because we aren't up to Chrono Trigger XIII is that so bad? :( Square seems to care about non-FF titles, but it's just dumb to abandon their flagship franchise to pursue what were originally pretty much side projects made by FF developers (or in FF Tactics' case, a rival to Ogre Battle).
Especially that line about Xenogears and Xenosaga. Xenosaga, if you hadn't noticed was published by Namco, not Square. The reason behind this being that the team of people that made Xenogears during their time with Square wanted to keep making Xeno games, but their bosses said no. They were told that they would be working on the next FF. They were so upset that they left Square and formed Monolith Soft. After that they began development on Xenosaga, but were forced to keep the story different enough from Xenogears because Square owned the copyrights to that story. So thats why the Xenosaga games were a) not made by Square and b) had a different (and not nearly as good) storyline.

So thats my main reference regarding the "FF take priority over ALL" argument.
 

shadow skill

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So Jrpgs are in the same situation as FPS games? Honestly both genres are effectively dead save for a few bright spots here and there. I would say that it is Squareenix rather than Jrpgs that are the problem here, unlike FPS which is truly a genre problem. The Jrpg problem started a while ago, it's my suspicion that it has alot to do with Squareenix being the biggest peddler of Jrpgs to the Western world. What we are seeing now is a power shift away from Square, and by extension Final Fantasy.

Sonic doesn't work in 3D, or at least they have not found a way to make it work yet. It would be best if Sega just put sonic to bed.
 

SecretTacoNinja

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Jul 8, 2008
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................SEGA are Japanese? The way they fucked everything up I thought they were being run by Americans.

(Apologies to Americans everywhere).

I will forever be one of the sad few staring at the horizon and waiting for Nintendo to be great again...

So in other words; I'm their *****.
 

GloatingSwine

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LucanDesmond said:
So thats why the Xenosaga games were a) not made by Square and b) had a different (and not nearly as good) storyline.
.
Except, of course, Xenogears was shit to begin with. It's leaden, plodding and as predictable as one would expect from the result of a bunch of games developers writing with one hand and rubbing copies of Neon Genesis Evangelion against their crotch with the other. The dialogue is awful (and I am reliably informed this is not simply an artefact of translation, it's that bad in Japanese as well), it's utterly reliant on vague exposition from characters you don't meet ever because they die half a world away from you and never actually affect you in any significant way, and then halfway through the game undergoes spontaneous existence failure and you're left looking at screens and screens of that direly written Evangelion fanfiction scrolling past at the unchangeable rate of one word per minute for about the next five goddamn hours interspersed with boss battles that are either punishingly difficult (Deus) or stupidly easy for the sake of a cameo (the one where the Macross 7 shows up to fight for you for one battle).
 

Simalacrum

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Apr 17, 2008
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theres still great stuff comming out of Japan, like Valkyria Chronicles (which, by the way, is made by that infamous company who consistently tries to breath new life into the long-dead blue hedgehog)
 

LucanDesmond

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Oct 19, 2008
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GloatingSwine said:
LucanDesmond said:
So thats why the Xenosaga games were a) not made by Square and b) had a different (and not nearly as good) storyline.
.
Except, of course, Xenogears was shit to begin with. It's leaden, plodding and as predictable as one would expect from the result of a bunch of games developers writing with one hand and rubbing copies of Neon Genesis Evangelion against their crotch with the other. The dialogue is awful (and I am reliably informed this is not simply an artefact of translation, it's that bad in Japanese as well), it's utterly reliant on vague exposition from characters you don't meet ever because they die half a world away from you and never actually affect you in any significant way, and then halfway through the game undergoes spontaneous existence failure and you're left looking at screens and screens of that direly written Evangelion fanfiction scrolling past at the unchangeable rate of one word per minute for about the next five goddamn hours interspersed with boss battles that are either punishingly difficult (Deus) or stupidly easy for the sake of a cameo (the one where the Macross 7 shows up to fight for you for one battle).
Wow, somebody didn't like Xenogears. Fair enough. My point in the OP however was that, I believe anyway, that Xenogears COULD have seen sequels and/or prequels if the bigwigs at Square had spent time and money on anything other than Final Fantasy. And that is something that they desperately need to do.
 

Aura Guardian

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SecretTacoNinja said:
................SEGA are Japanese? The way they fucked everything up I thought they were being run by Americans.

(Apologies to Americans everywhere).

I will forever be one of the sad few staring at the horizon and waiting for Nintendo to be great again...

So in other words; I'm their *****.
None taken. Americans tend to fuck up EVERYTHING (I recommend you watch Team American World Police). But it's mostly Square-Enix and Sony that are going downhill.
 

geldonyetich

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As a 25 year gamer, I'm left thinking anyone who classifies games by their ethnicity is inadvertently demonstrating a kind of racism. Games are games, nationality hardly matters, and whether you want a JRPG-style command box or a point and click interface is just a difference in design decision.
 

eatenbyagrue

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LucanDesmond said:
I'm sure this statement will be flamed. I don't care. This is my opinion. Square-Enix. Formerly know as Squaresoft. In their better days. They can't stop beating the VERY DEAD Final Fantasy horse to make anything that is any good these days. Square hasn't put out a great game in about ten years. The best stuff they've put out in recent years are remakes of their classics for the DS and PSP. They made a lot of mistakes with regards to prioritizing what games to make, in my opinion. Final Fantasy was ALWAYS too important to be put on hold to give any time or money to something that might end up being better. Xenogears, FF Tactics, and Chrono Trigger are all games that had great potential but got minimal attention in favor of the latest FF to have an over convoluted, ridiculous storyline played out by a cast of feminine emo boys and their slutty girlfriends. Even Kingdom Hearts, a decent series with a lot of potential hasn't seen a full console release in over 3 years now with nothing new in site (I'm not talking about hand held stuff).
I've been flamed many times for voicing this opinion, but here goes: SquareEnix needs to hire new writers and designers. They need to try something different, something other than "boy meets girl, saves world". Back in the day, they were known for breaking trends: Squaresoft made playing RPGs cool back when FFVII came out, and Enix was always that underappreciated little company that made the most awesome games, like the Dragon Warrior and Star Ocean series. I'd like for once to play a SquareEnix game where the hero isn't some generic sword wielding prettyboy who could be mistaken for the leading lady.

TL;DR: SquareEnix has fallen into a rut, needs way out
 

stevenrkorea

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geldonyetich said:
As a 25 year gamer, I'm left thinking anyone who classifies games by their ethnicity is inadvertently demonstrating a kind of racism. Games are games, nationality hardly matters, and whether you want a JRPG-style command box or a point and click interface is just a difference in design decision.
Different countries have different cultures. Games, or any creation for that matter, will always reflect the cultures in which they were created given they are products of their cultures. Thus, nationality clearly matters in the creation of a game.

That being said, it's about time Japanese games died.
 
May 17, 2007
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I hear ya, man, and I agree with everything you said except:

LucanDesmond said:
Square hasn't put out a great game in about ten years.
The World Ends With You is awesome. Aside from the protagonist being a whiny teenager at the start (he gets better), you'd hardly think it was a Square game!