The Economist on Bulgarian and Romanian immigration. Also discussion about e/immigration

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DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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Apparently the Economist welcomes them.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21591865-open-letter-citizens-bulgaria-and-romania-youre-welcome

BRITAIN?S newspapers are full of stories about your poverty, criminality and hunger for welfare. Its politicians rail against the European freedom-of-movement rules that will let you in and scramble to make it harder for you to claim benefits. Its population is more hostile than the Germans or the French: almost half of Britons believe their government should ban you from the country even if it is against the law to do so. You might just, as a result, have got the impression that you are not welcome.


But you are. On behalf of The Economist?s home country, we invite you to come and work here. Beginning on January 1st, you can go anywhere in the European Union. We hope lots of you choose Britain. Although our leaders seem to have forgotten, Britain pushed for your country to join the EU, knowing that you would one day turn up on our doorstep.






The going will be rough at first. But the history of many waves of immigration tells us that, before too long, you will be folded comfortably into British society.


More than we bargained for


It is not your fault that most of our countrymen don?t want you. Partly, the problem is the Poles. Ten years ago, when Britain was one of only three countries to open its doors to them, the government assured voters that just a few tens of thousands would come, and probably not for long. Instead more than half a million arrived. And, as well as being workers who cut cabbages and painted walls (displacing some British labourers by the simple expedient of turning up on time), they proved to be human beings who settled down and had children. We weren?t fully prepared for that.


But if our leaders were wrong a decade ago about the number of Poles and other east Europeans who would come to Britain, they are more wrong now about their effect on the country. Politicians claim they are a burden on public services already stretched thin by austerity. Nonsense: being young and able-bodied, they don?t use them much. And because they contribute more to the Treasury in taxes than they take out in benefits and services?about 35% more, according to a plausible estimate?they save our schools and hospitals from deeper cuts. They don?t depress wages much, and mostly among other immigrant workers. They make our economy bigger, lowering our debt-to-GDP ratio. If you are even remotely like them, you will be an economic boon.


Sadly, opinion polls do not lie. Few people want you here. Those of you who end up begging or stealing?and there will inevitably be some?will be featured on the front pages of our newspapers. But in an odd way, this could help you. So loathsome is the idea of Bulgarian and Romanian immigration to Britons that the reality can only seem pleasant by comparison. People will be nicely surprised when the great majority of you come to work rather than scrounge off the state.


Britain?s labour market is Europe?s most flexible. Its economy is at last growing strongly. Its people are not prejudiced in practice: the polls that show huge opposition to your arrival also suggest that most Britons would consider employing you to work on their houses. The country is used to immigrants. Particularly in London, you will discover all kinds of exotic folk, many of whom were similarly despised when they first arrived. If you are really worried about prejudice, just pretend to be Italian. Nobody will know.

I must say - I'm touched. Especially with the whole doom and gloom that surrounded the thing the positivity feels like a fresh breath of air.

So, related, I thought it might be an interesting conversation starter about emigration/immigration as a whole (so not just the UK) and people's thoughts and experiences on those. Note that the thread is not in R&P because I don't want it tied to either of those (though it may be intriguing to see it from a religious point of view) - just people's opinions.
 

JoJo

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It's nice to see something positive for once rather than all the doom and gloom. The good thing about European immigrants is they tend to assimilate very quickly, I myself am approximately 75% English heritage and the other quarter is from various Europeans who migrated to Britain in the late 19th century, but I'm no different from any other Anglo-Saxon-Celtic orginated Englishman. Let's not forget the several millions Britons living in other EU countries either, especially Spain with a large number of retired Brits chilling out there, free movement benefits everyone and I wish certain parties and newspapers wouldn't keep whipping up hysteria about it all the time >.>
 

Nickolai77

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Yeah the Romanian/Bulgarian immigration hysteria going on in the British tabloids is quite frustrating. Economically these immigrants are pretty useful because they tend to fill in gaps in the labour market by working as farm labourers, care workers and whatnot. I also believe there's been some studies looking into the "harmful" consequences of European immigration and they've all drawn a blank- very little evidence was found to suggest that European migrants were cheating off the welfare system- probably because most of them are young and healthy people who come here to work!

Btw, this topic should really be in r&p.
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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Nickolai77 said:
Btw, this topic should really be in r&p.
DoPo said:
So, related, I thought it might be an interesting conversation starter about emigration/immigration as a whole (so not just the UK) and people's thoughts and experiences on those. Note that the thread is not in R&P because I don't want it tied to either of those (though it may be intriguing to see it from a religious point of view) - just people's opinions.
Literally a third of what I wrote addresses exactly that. 2/3 if you include the fact that it's not about Bulgarians and Romanians immigration to the UK specifically. And the other 1/3 is not even about politics or anything in that nature. So no, I don't see what your point is.
 

JoJo

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Full Metal Bolshevik said:
Nice.

Immigration restrictions are Anti-Communist, people should be free to go to wherever they want.
So I presume that's why East Germany created the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain was a thing, am I right?
 

Redlin5_v1legacy

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As a Canadian I'm actually quite open to immigration. It has a bad rap in my home province right now because a lot of people seem to be coming in from Africa or the Middle East and don't assimilate like Europeans do. I believe that the rhetoric about how everyone arriving overseas is just coming to mooch off our social services and sit around not working isn't as accurate as the Right would like us to believe. Yes, there are people gaming the system but this was a country formed by immigrants and I'm not about to condemn anyone as a liability on Canadian soil unless I know them personally.

I used to work with an Indian man who held down three jobs and got his family into Canada after two years of hard sweat. Now he'll be able to create a future for his daughter here that he feels he couldn't do back in his home. I'm not for restricting immigration if it means barring or discouraging people like him from entering the country.
 

Albino Boo

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Full Metal Bolshevik said:
JoJo said:
Full Metal Bolshevik said:
Nice.

Immigration restrictions are Anti-Communist, people should be free to go to wherever they want.
So I presume that's why East Germany created the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain was a thing, am I right?
Was East Germany a classless society? Was East Germany rulled by a government?

Yeah, I thought so too.
A government that shot people who tried to leave, not the best recommendation. Building a 1000 mile long double fence with landmines and guard towers to stop your citizens leaving is not the sign of a happy population.
 

RoonMian

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albino boo said:
Full Metal Bolshevik said:
JoJo said:
Full Metal Bolshevik said:
Nice.

Immigration restrictions are Anti-Communist, people should be free to go to wherever they want.
So I presume that's why East Germany created the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain was a thing, am I right?
Was East Germany a classless society? Was East Germany rulled by a government?

Yeah, I thought so too.
A government that shot people who tried to leave, not the best recommendation. Building a 1000 mile long double fence with landmines and guard towers to stop your citizens leaving is not the sign of a happy population.
He meant that real Communism doesn't need a government. Basically he's a hardcore Star Trek fan.
 

Hazzard

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No, you misunderstand how Communism works in practise.

I personally believe that a country has a right to control who enters its borders. If the UK government wants to stop people coming in then they can stop people coming in. I don't think it's a majority of foriegners coming over that's a problem, but there's a few criminals who come over and the courts can't get rid of. Abu Qatada and a few others come to mind. I remember a story of some Polish people raping someone and they couldn't be sent to Poland for some reason when they appealed to the Europeon court. Evicting criminals from foriegn countries is something I believe a country also has a right to do.
 

Albino Boo

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Full Metal Bolshevik said:
You misunderstood my post.

You misunderstand Communism.
Ah the old mass murder isn't true communism argument. AFter 80 years of mass murderer, imprisoning anyone who disagrees and declaring your opponents insane might be regarded as true test of whether a system works or not. Communism is an bunch empty slogans to disguise the the brutal rule of a tiny minority. Communism has been tried and doesn't work and is only maintained by murder.
 

EmilShmiengura

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Wow did that January kick a fuss in the UK or what? While I'm a Romanian it may come as a shock to some that I don't want to move to England but I am happy to see that not everybody there thinks like Nigel Farage and his ilk.
 

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Sep 10, 2008
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albino boo said:
Full Metal Bolshevik said:
You misunderstood my post.

You misunderstand Communism.
Ah the old mass murder isn't true communism argument. AFter 80 years of mass murderer, imprisoning anyone who disagrees and declaring your opponents insane might be regarded as true test of whether a system works or not. Communism is an bunch empty slogans to disguise the the brutal rule of a tiny minority. Communism has been tried and doesn't work and is only maintained by murder.
If he's meaning Classic Marxism or one of the earlier ideology's, then yes you did misunderstand.

However he/she should have been more specific as which form of Communism, the term is rather muddied and tainted by both the Cold War and Stalinism.
 

Albino Boo

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Full Metal Bolshevik said:
K.
Talk to me when you read a tiny bit about what Communists defend and then compare to what USSR did and see the differences.

And it's better you don't make me go on the offensive, because Capitalism is a piece of shit of a system for the majority that causes millions of deaths every year and the US was, give or take, just as bad as the USSR with the difference that one of them is extinct and the other one is still killing people every year to this day.

If you want to continue this discussion, open a topic on R&P and I'll gladly elaborate more.

I'll stop with the Offtopic here, which, I admit was partially my fault.
How come every communist country descends into dictatorship and murder. Wild stab in the dark, the system has no checks and balances which allow the most brutal to size power. It dose not work. Ture communism is unattainable because of that reason. After decades of trying on on many continents, by many people, it doesn't work, it has never worked and never will worked.
Ed130 said:
albino boo said:
Full Metal Bolshevik said:
I fully understand what he means, classical marxist when in power wherever in the world always result to force to maintain themselves.




You misunderstood my post.

You misunderstand Communism.
Ah the old mass murder isn't true communism argument. AFter 80 years of mass murderer, imprisoning anyone who disagrees and declaring your opponents insane might be regarded as true test of whether a system works or not. Communism is an bunch empty slogans to disguise the the brutal rule of a tiny minority. Communism has been tried and doesn't work and is only maintained by murder.
If he's meaning Classic Marxism or one of the earlier ideology's, then yes you did misunderstand.

However he/she should have been more specific as which form of Communism, the term is rather muddied and tainted by both the Cold War and Stalinism.
Classical marxists wherever in the world always result to force, when in power, to maintain themselves.
 

Someone Depressing

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It's a mess in Britain right now; in massive debt, our government is stupid, and because of the mass immigration and whatnot, people are because very, very racist. It's not even funny.

I am 2/5 German, 1/5 Scottish, and 2/5 English, which some other specks of heritage thrown in to fuck with mathematicians.
It just goes to show that it's been a problem for a long time.
 

Techno Squidgy

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I'm rather ambivalent about it to be honest. I wonder if we'll see unemployment rise once they start shipping in though. There are only so many jobs, and the economy is still more or less down the shitter.