The Elder Scrolls modders amaze me.
- Thread starter 80Maxwell08
- Start date
Recommended Videos
[HEADING=3]Now, you better read this as it factually answers your question[/HEADING]
It's not perfect. It is buggy and the main quest is arguably short. What it is, though, is fucking enjoyable. I can do almost whatever I want, when I want; stylise my character to be how I want him to be; and have extreme fun while playing it.
DETAILS:
It doesn't require me to sit down for a hundred hours back-to-back; but doesn't punish me if I do. It doesn't require me to spend extra money to keep the fun going, but offers it as a side option. It doesn't give for competitiveness and multiplayer, but it does offer the best non-scripted single player experiences in gaming to date. It's just amazing. It doesn't force me to do anything, really, but allows me to do nearly anything I want.
TEARING APART YOUR MAIN POINT:
Now, you said it yourself - the modding community are still updating the Unofficial Oblivion Patch to this day. Point proven, if Bathesda were to release one of their games bug-free, we would have to see it shelved for another 5-10 years after their usual release date while they continued to work on it for an-indefinite ever.
When programming, it is very easy to change a single word/variable/line of code that disrupts another, hidden function elsewhere in the program. You just would never have thought that change would have had any kind of influence to something unassumingly related. It's a right pain in the arse but it happens. Even if you're program is a tiny 10mb's big (like some of mine ((Not an innuendo!))), you will have to spend HOURS running the program in debug mode, trawling through lines of code hunting for bugs, which is why all programs get updated post-release (V1.1, V2.32.43.556.6, etc.).
Now try making a 6GB open-ended program where there are a hundred thousand times more variables that you're average buggy FPS. Even a development team of 100, and a testing team of 200 and a year of time to spend couldn't iron out all of the bugs. This now nullifies one of your strongest points. the more variables in a program, the more testing it needs by a lot more.
It is impossible to make something bug-free and still make money from it, unless you're program is a simple calculator suite; or about as linear as a movie, CoD >:[, as then there are almost no variables and the program runs from one subroutine straight into another and no variables so-to-speak; of which can still be buggy after an hour of testing.
SUMMARY, NOT A TL;DR:
We enjoy it so much because it is a good game, and in terms of bugs - it's just not as bad as it could've been. Something as scripted as CoD on the other hand, should be ashamed for even a few bugs, not the shitstorm of faults MW2 was.
It's an excellently designed game that is flawlessly publicised and done in a way that it seeps with lore and ticks all expecting fans' boxes; keeping the experience fresh but not straying too far from its roots. That is why we play it.
It's not perfect. It is buggy and the main quest is arguably short. What it is, though, is fucking enjoyable. I can do almost whatever I want, when I want; stylise my character to be how I want him to be; and have extreme fun while playing it.
DETAILS:
It doesn't require me to sit down for a hundred hours back-to-back; but doesn't punish me if I do. It doesn't require me to spend extra money to keep the fun going, but offers it as a side option. It doesn't give for competitiveness and multiplayer, but it does offer the best non-scripted single player experiences in gaming to date. It's just amazing. It doesn't force me to do anything, really, but allows me to do nearly anything I want.
TEARING APART YOUR MAIN POINT:
Now, you said it yourself - the modding community are still updating the Unofficial Oblivion Patch to this day. Point proven, if Bathesda were to release one of their games bug-free, we would have to see it shelved for another 5-10 years after their usual release date while they continued to work on it for an-indefinite ever.
When programming, it is very easy to change a single word/variable/line of code that disrupts another, hidden function elsewhere in the program. You just would never have thought that change would have had any kind of influence to something unassumingly related. It's a right pain in the arse but it happens. Even if you're program is a tiny 10mb's big (like some of mine ((Not an innuendo!))), you will have to spend HOURS running the program in debug mode, trawling through lines of code hunting for bugs, which is why all programs get updated post-release (V1.1, V2.32.43.556.6, etc.).
Now try making a 6GB open-ended program where there are a hundred thousand times more variables that you're average buggy FPS. Even a development team of 100, and a testing team of 200 and a year of time to spend couldn't iron out all of the bugs. This now nullifies one of your strongest points. the more variables in a program, the more testing it needs by a lot more.
It is impossible to make something bug-free and still make money from it, unless you're program is a simple calculator suite; or about as linear as a movie, CoD >:[, as then there are almost no variables and the program runs from one subroutine straight into another and no variables so-to-speak; of which can still be buggy after an hour of testing.
SUMMARY, NOT A TL;DR:
We enjoy it so much because it is a good game, and in terms of bugs - it's just not as bad as it could've been. Something as scripted as CoD on the other hand, should be ashamed for even a few bugs, not the shitstorm of faults MW2 was.
It's an excellently designed game that is flawlessly publicised and done in a way that it seeps with lore and ticks all expecting fans' boxes; keeping the experience fresh but not straying too far from its roots. That is why we play it.
No you didn't answer my question. None of you but one single person answered my question. Because none of you even read my question right. The question was why people are so much more dedicated to modding it than any other game I've ever heard of. Granted this was answered early on by Hal10k who was probably the only person here to even read it right.Bvenged said:
I mentioned the Elder Scrolls because of Oblivion not Skyrim. I mentioned Skyrim a few times but that was never the focus.GoddyofAus said:
Exactly, and this is the problem I've always had with Bethesda games.
Their games always fail in almost everything, but the gamers themselves insist they're the greatest games ever because there's a very high amount of sidequests and a world to explore.
When I look at games like Max Payne 3 and Arkham City, and then see Bethesda's games get similar scores, a little part of me dies.
I've tried dissecting why they're so loved before and I never come up with anything. Granted the mods for oblivion actually make it into a good game, but the modding community shouldn't have to put forth that much effort just to make their games acceptable, and there's always the amazing amounts of bugs that bethesda just leaves in just because they know people will buy it and/or make their own bug fixes. Hell, PS3's version of it inevitably dies after a while!
I mean, oblivion does almost nothing well. The characters never seem human, their idle chat with other NPC's is obviously done with a random phrase generator, the animations are always boring and bad and the story is very forgettable could be much better. People around here have been complaining about the ending of Skyrim already!
The parts of the main quests become tedius and run into each other all the time, becoming a chore with each one (gates, dragons, etc.), and I could say that they lack imagination, too. I mean, medival times with kings and dragons is the most overdone thing in the world. It's a trope done by even the most basic of stories we'd been told when we were kids, but I guess that's debatable.
Making an offline WoW with less vision, half-baked main features (boring combat, boring story, fetch quests, etc.), and millions more bugs should not be encouraged, but it is anyway.
Like, when I get into the game industry, is that all I need to do? Just make a huge world for everyone to run around in, add a bunch of generic side-quests, ignore the bugs, and generally pay less attention to anything else? Is that really the kind of game that should be given high scores?
What sort of score would Oblivion have gotten if they'd actually paid attention to detail on the main things that the player has to interact with every time they play? What I mean is, what if they made actually fun combat, good AI, and cleaned up all of their bugs AS WELL AS making their huge world and sidequests?
What if the player didn't have to pretend the main quest doesn't exist and just entertain themselves on the sidequests?
That's what I wish Bethesda would do. I guess this has become sort of a rant, but there's so many major parts of game design they obviously don't care about, but in every single case, people would rather not acknowledge it!
EDIT: now that I think about it, I guess it's less a problem I have with Bethesda, and more a problem I have with people who always ignore the game's (many, many) faults and insist their games are worthy of an A+.
Their games always fail in almost everything, but the gamers themselves insist they're the greatest games ever because there's a very high amount of sidequests and a world to explore.
When I look at games like Max Payne 3 and Arkham City, and then see Bethesda's games get similar scores, a little part of me dies.
I've tried dissecting why they're so loved before and I never come up with anything. Granted the mods for oblivion actually make it into a good game, but the modding community shouldn't have to put forth that much effort just to make their games acceptable, and there's always the amazing amounts of bugs that bethesda just leaves in just because they know people will buy it and/or make their own bug fixes. Hell, PS3's version of it inevitably dies after a while!
I mean, oblivion does almost nothing well. The characters never seem human, their idle chat with other NPC's is obviously done with a random phrase generator, the animations are always boring and bad and the story is very forgettable could be much better. People around here have been complaining about the ending of Skyrim already!
The parts of the main quests become tedius and run into each other all the time, becoming a chore with each one (gates, dragons, etc.), and I could say that they lack imagination, too. I mean, medival times with kings and dragons is the most overdone thing in the world. It's a trope done by even the most basic of stories we'd been told when we were kids, but I guess that's debatable.
Making an offline WoW with less vision, half-baked main features (boring combat, boring story, fetch quests, etc.), and millions more bugs should not be encouraged, but it is anyway.
Like, when I get into the game industry, is that all I need to do? Just make a huge world for everyone to run around in, add a bunch of generic side-quests, ignore the bugs, and generally pay less attention to anything else? Is that really the kind of game that should be given high scores?
What sort of score would Oblivion have gotten if they'd actually paid attention to detail on the main things that the player has to interact with every time they play? What I mean is, what if they made actually fun combat, good AI, and cleaned up all of their bugs AS WELL AS making their huge world and sidequests?
What if the player didn't have to pretend the main quest doesn't exist and just entertain themselves on the sidequests?
That's what I wish Bethesda would do. I guess this has become sort of a rant, but there's so many major parts of game design they obviously don't care about, but in every single case, people would rather not acknowledge it!
EDIT: now that I think about it, I guess it's less a problem I have with Bethesda, and more a problem I have with people who always ignore the game's (many, many) faults and insist their games are worthy of an A+.
I'm kinda amazed they didn't use more from Arkane Studio's games since they have been doing first person combat since their beginning and they have been doing it well. Hell the deadly reflex mod basically turns Oblivion into Dark Messiah of Might and Magic in an open world.Shia-Neko-Chan said:
Because when they enjoy a game and think "you know what would make this better?" and have the tools to make it so, they do.
Its what kept Warcraft 3 alive for years, and is the driving force behind most starcraft games.
Any Blizzard game without mods, addons, etc. would be blahhh
Its what kept Warcraft 3 alive for years, and is the driving force behind most starcraft games.
Any Blizzard game without mods, addons, etc. would be blahhh
They definitely would have if they thought good gameplay/combat were necessary. It's exactly what I'm talking about, ya know? >_>80Maxwell08 said:
edit: By the way, I have Dark Messiah of Might and Magic elements. Is that any good? I keep hearing dark messiah has amazing first person combat, but I havent' had time to play it.
Well from my time with it before it does but I'm not sure how deep. I never managed to figure out what all the moves were really for but it is fun and I would definitely recommend trying it out.Shia-Neko-Chan said:
I guess that nobody told them that some things are either impossible, hard to do or there's no point in developing them. It's amazing what people are capable of if they don't listen to all those pessimits out there.80Maxwell08 said:
I'd beg to differ. Skyrim was extremely underwhelming in the graphical department for me, hence why I installed 50 individual graphics mods that ended up being about 2-3Gb in total. Almost everything in the game has been re textured, and numerous effects have been upgraded. Now, I'll give the aesthetic some props, as that is brilliant, but the graphics themselves aren't that good. The top of graphical splendor in all games I've seen has to go to BF3. The lighting is brilliant, the textures are great, and the effects are excellent too. Other games, like Revelations, also have better texture quality than Skyrim.Sjakie said:
OT: Have you ever seen a Blizzard game? Last I checked mods were still being made for SC1, and that was 10 years ago (Mods as in maps. Closer things to true modding are achieved in WC3, with new mechanics, models, textures, everything being added in, and SC2 wins even further seeing as people managed to turn it into a functioning third person shooter they decided not to release due to B.net WASD input lag). TES likely has a lot of dedicated modders due to the worlds themselves. You will be pressed to find other games like them, of which there will be few, and fewer still will have readily available easy to use modding tools. TES has a massive, open world, that you can change to just about anything if you have the patience, and modding tools that almost anyone can use with a bit of practice, and it is really the perfect formulae for modding. Why mod another game, where if you decide for something big scale you'll have loading screens throughout it, it will be effort learning how the engine works to be able to properly mod it, and where those who play it may not be interested in mods, when you can mod TES, with a massive palette for you to build on that will not give you constant loading screens changing areas in larger projects, where almost anything can be done with easy to use modding tools, and where there is a community obsessed with mods. Its just natural for modding on TES games to be popular.
"Why? What drives these people? Where does this dedication come from?" was your discussion question. I did read all of your post hence why I answered; I am a TES modder. construction set for Oblivion is still installed on my comp even though I moved to console long ago. I'm still dabbling in it. Changing dialogue, creating races, correcting interiors. etc.80Maxwell08 said:
WE are more dedicated to modding because it is approved by the developer (they make an open world game & give us the tools to shape it for ourselves & each other); we, as a gaming community, are dedicated to the game because of my stated reasons in my previous post. I answered your question; you just weren't specific enough in teh question if you weren't satisfied with my answer.
No I asked about why the modders were so dedicated you talked about why people like the game nothing more.Bvenged said:
Everyone who talks about the "combat is lackluster..." its just not even about that really. Its not an epic fight against a specific knight. If you want deep combat mechanics, there are games about deep combat mechanics.
But which of these games with amazing deep combat mechanics let me place the souls of my murder victims (from the dark brotherhood quests) into black soul gems and decorate a dark shrine to sithis with them, each next to a personal effect gathered from each target (a ring, a cabbage, etc).
Sure, its extremely creepy. But, uh, yeah can't really say more than that. TES is way more than combat mechanics.
But uh, yeah, the modders are awesome. People play this game, and they say, "boy, i want that, or that, or that..." and some people just go out and make it. Its great.
But which of these games with amazing deep combat mechanics let me place the souls of my murder victims (from the dark brotherhood quests) into black soul gems and decorate a dark shrine to sithis with them, each next to a personal effect gathered from each target (a ring, a cabbage, etc).
Sure, its extremely creepy. But, uh, yeah can't really say more than that. TES is way more than combat mechanics.
But uh, yeah, the modders are awesome. People play this game, and they say, "boy, i want that, or that, or that..." and some people just go out and make it. Its great.
Are the modders not composed of people who like the game the most, so learn the toolset and create their own content? I'm pretty damn sure my OP covers them well, including a possible answer the vaguely asked question on how anybody can remain dedicated to the modern versions of series. Ask any modder and show him my original answer, and he'll agree.80Maxwell08 said: