The Elder Scrolls, what does the Future hold?

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Private Custard

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gstaff said:
Private Custard said:
God, I'd forgotten about Fallout 3! So they have a couple of chances to show they still have what it takes. I'd get my scrotum pierced if I thought it would guarantee a gaming experience equal to Morrowind!
I can be sure to let folks know that at the office.
Uuummmm...........shit!!

But seriously, if you want a next gen FPS-RPG then just re-skin Morrowind, simple really!! Oh and don't treat us like fools, I felt slightly insulted quite frequently when playing Oblivion. Depth isn't scary, depth is the entire point of an RPG, the bigger, free-er(err!) and more complex the better.

I wait with baited breath (and a fairly terrified scrotum).
 

omnibus01

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As usual, a bunch of fanboy wish-lists... I enjoyed Morrorwind more than Oblivion, and played it a lot more [still playing a game now], but Oblivion was more successful [made more money]. It was more successful because it was a lot easier, actually, and thus it appealed to a much bigger group of gamers, and existed across 3 platforms, etc. All I'm saying here is that, contrary to what some people believe, Bethesda is in business to make money. They have chosen to do that by making games---games that sell. The small cadre of hard-core RPG gamers just don't have the financial clout to push developers to do what the gamers want. The developers and publishers will always do a game that sells, instead of a better game that fails financially or doesn't do as well. We have to understand that and live with it.

In specific---levitation would break the game in Oblivion, but so does the 100% cameleon possiblity which is nevertheless in the game. So both games have some inherent problems.

Leveling in Oblivion....Bethesda tried, but failed on this one. Maybe some kind of hybrid of the Morrowind and Oblivion systems might work.

Combat and spell attacks....far, far better in Obivion. Combat felt like a real fight, and the spells really had a zap to them. Morrorwind had a very awkward magic using system.

Radiant AI....a great try again that didn't quite pan out, but far superior to the animated robots of Morrowind that stood around or walked in a pre-determined path, etc. I suspect that the AI will be better in Fallout 3 and even better in TES V. It's one of the very fine innovations of the TES series.

The compass....well, it took a lot of fun out of exploring, but it was there because a LOT of ordinary people [not hard-core RPG players] just got lost all the time in Morrowind and stopped playing the game altogether. Not too good for sales.

Fast travel....saved time, but was not done very well. I wanted some kind of method for the travel, even an enchanted or magical item, or high-level spell, or a few magical gates.

Draw distance [graphics]....here Bethesda sacrificed playability for beauty, and just overdid it. I prefer the misty way that Morrowind did it, and less ground foliage in that game. Also there was a great variety of landscapes and that made the area feel bigger than it really was.

The list could go on for a long time, no doubt. I'd just like people to understand that the driving force behind any game in simply money[sales]. Sad, but true. Game developers want to sell as many games as possible--luckily, a good game will usually outsell a bad game, but not always [ Kaine $ Lynch have sold a million so far--go figure! ]. That means that games will probably appeal to somewhat of the lowest common denominator demographic, leaving a lot of die-hard RPG fans like myself often frustrated and irritated. But at least I understand the ecomonics of game design and publishing demands.

Sorry, if my initial tone was too sarcastic. I wasn't trying to belittle anyone or go into flame mode, but attempting to bring some harsh facts into the discussion. Thanks.
 

Private Custard

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Your tone didn't annoy me at all. In terms of sales, Oblivion was a huge success. I'm just hoping that, in the worst case scenario, a middle ground can at least be found.
 

Possum-Man

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LordKaT said:
I know TES has a legacy and a certain style of the RPG genre it wants to hold on to, but I think the series can be improved by borrowing from aspects of other RPGs and MMOs.

1) Third Person - first person is good for twitch games, but RPGs tend to require a third person POV, and I think this allows better immersion versus first person.

2) Lock on - One of the things I hate is the arcade-game feel of fights in TES3/4, in my experience the handling of fights tends to really suck (for me, at least). Locks on would allow the player to stay focused on the enemy, and possibly to more easily perform acrobatic moves to avoid being hit (great for the otherwise useless acrobatics skill).

3) Auto-Attack - Please give my left mouse button a vacation. If I'm in range and locked on, there's a good chance I want to smack something with my stick of death.

4) Tracking Spells or auto-hit spells - Having spells with linear paths is fine, but we need some spells that auto-track enemies (like fireballs in WoW), or auto-hit enemies (like spells in Final Fantasy), otherwise playing a mage ends up feeling like a really slow FPS.

5) New Sneak System - Let's face it: the stealth system in TES sucks. You're either too clumsy to sneak around or you're a fucking god and invisible to everyone around you. Sneaking is as much as skill as it is the ability to take advantage of your surroundings.

6) Enough with the omnipotent guards, already - Seriously, every time I get caught I *have* to go to prison, otherwise I'll be fighting these damn guards until I'm dead.

7) Let Cooler Heads Prevail - Why does every person in these games love me, or pull a sword on me and want to kill me? If I fight someone for a bit but then run away, the same person shouldn't automatically attack me on sight (or follow me to the ends of the earth) unless he's got some kind of frickin' psychosis.
1) Keep the option to switch between the two modes.

2) That would infuriate me beyond belief. Seriously, if you can't target and enemy, in either 1st person or 3rd, when you have a cross-hair you should be ashamed of your hand-eye co-ordination.

3) Er...no, that kind of defies the point of free-combat. I prefer being able to decide when I want to block/ attack rather than letting a potentially bad piece of code decide for me.

4) Some spells yes, but not all. I think it would be better if you could guide them slightly, by moving the cross-hair, but they shouldn't be like Stinger missiles.

5) I thought the sneak system was pretty good, it improved on Morrowinds system which was, to be honest, pretty bad.

6) Yes, they are supremely annoying.

7) Tried yielding? It tends to work unless they really hate you. I too have experience the "Love/Hate" part of Oblivion. I walked into a tavern, with only my sword and some clothing equipped, and was suddenly attacked by three men who had apparently been enjoying a quiet drink but were now out for my blood. After I'd given them all a good gut-stabbing I proceeded to talk to the barmaid who spoke to me with glossy-eyed wonder as if I was Akatosh himself. She didn't even mention the fact that I had just brutally murdered 3 of her regulars, who's exposed innards were even now leaking profusely onto her finest rug.

And this isn't the only case of society being a little odd in Oblivion. Apparently, if you so much as pick up a radish by accident, picking it up so it's on your screen not in your inventory, the shop keeper will immediately call the guards and accuse you of stealing, rather than just asking you to put it back before he calls the Fuzz. Now, in Morrowind, when you summoned a creature in a city the guards would attack it, and you. However, in Cyrodil, it's perfectly alright for every Tom, Dick and Harry to summon whatever monstrosity they like.

Don't get me wrong, Oblivion was a good game but it was actually pretty disappointing aswell. All Bethesda seemed to have done was copy and paste Morrowind, delete random pieces of the code, put in a physics engine which only affects objects with the mass of a large orange, or less, and generally shunt up the graphics in an attempt to make it seem like they'd actually done some work.

Things I'd like to see in the next Elder Scrolls:

A proper physics engine where not only do small objects clatter around and break when you cast a destructive spell but large objects, such as book cases, fences, trees etc etc actually take damage and break apart, rather than continuing to hold books(which are now mostly on the floor), keep people off your property(which looks exactly the same as it did before the spell) and provide shelter for birds(which have been scared away),when they're hit by a spell with the equivalent power of a block of C4.

More clothing which can be made if needed. Many a time have I thought "Hmm, it's probably bloody cold up in these mountains yet my Avatars toes, or other part of anatomy, seem to still be attached to his body despite the fact that he's only in a loincloth, plus he doesn't look that cold."

A better economy which actually relies on merchants travelling from town to town rather than items just magically appearing in a store inventory. The economy should also fluctuate, grow, crash and do all the other things that an economy should.

I think that Bethesda have actually gotten lazy with their Elder Scrolls games, why? because of the modding community. After seeing the success that Morrowind had with all its mods which added astronomical amounts of content, Bethesda seems to be thinking that they can just make any old Elder Scrolls game and it will be popular. Personally, if I were Bethesda I'd be saying to myself "Let's find popular mods that are similar for both Morrowind and Oblivion and try to incorporate their concepts into our new game." This would encourage the mod community to innovate and to look deeper at the game. If Bethesda did this then we could end up with one of the most awesome games of all time because it would be packed with more features than you can shake an enchanted stick at.

P.M.
 

Anniko

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Remove the scaled leveling system.
Put Mark/Recall/Almsivi's and Divine Intervention\Levitation\Jump spells back in.
Cut the crap with the high fantasy setting. ES:III had a wonderfully unique setting, giant mushrooms that people lived in.
Bring uniqueness back to beast characters.
Climb skill.
No loading when going into cities.
Stealth skill that only affects the sound you make, none of this hiding in front of a guard in a bright red robe in broad daylight.
Raytracing, it's a viable technique now and even more so when ES:V will be released.
Make lockpick/persuasion dependant on your skill again, you can go through the entire game without breaking a single lockpick.
Hidden humour.
 

Worr Monger

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I think Private Custard's first ranting post was SPOT ON.

I thought maybe I was one of the only people that believe Morrowind was far superior to Oblivion.

Oblivion's graphics were fantastic... and I loved the upgraded physics and combat system. But it lacked a LOT of what made Morrowind so appealing.

I'd like to add to his list of things such as:

1. Fix the Guild System: I like in Morrowind how they had numerous guilds that were more attuned to certain character classes, and some were enemies of the others. I enjoyed being part of House Telvanni, how it was exclusive to Mage classes only and they essentially disliked any other guilds. You shouldn't be a warrior class in Oblivion, and be able to join EVERY guild, like the Thieves, or the Mages.

2. More Spectacular Landscapes: Another thing that made Morrowind so appealing were the environments. Despite a more dated graphics engine and a more limited view distance, the areas of Vvardenfell were more diverse and interesting than most that were in Oblivion.. even the cities. As Custard pointed out, Oblivion is basically ALL forest, which got a little repetitive. What happened to the giant mushrooms? or any other more interesting type of plant life? And I personally found the City of Vivec, Sadrith Mora, and Mournhold were much more spectacular than the Capitol of Cyrodiil itself. Almost every vity of Vvardenfell looked different. Oblivion looked more like a medieval game, rather than a fantasy game.

3. Sense of Threat in the Story: Was it just me, or did the story in Morrowind feel more intense than Oblivion? The back story of the Dwarves disappearance, crazy followers of Dagoth Ur attempting to kill you, the blight storms, the intimidating area of Red Mountain. It just felt more alive... despite it being blandly executed. As pointed out earlier, the leveling system made every monster and area less intimidating.. everything was fair game.

4. No more Horses: We don't need em, especially if we can't fight on them. It's more fun exploring on foot IMHO. If I want to travel far, give me a giant bug for fast travel.

I'm sure there is more... but I'm a die-hard fan of Morrowind, and was overall disappointed with Oblivion. Most of what was improved in Oblivion were the detailed things like the combat system, the picking of locks, etc.

I'd rather see Morrowind remade exactly as it was, but with the new combat system, and small technical aspects, maybe even the graphics.... Although I wasn't a huge fan of being able to see all the way across the country, I enjoyed Morrowind's view distance.
 

gstaff

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Possum-Man said:
I think that Bethesda have actually gotten lazy with their Elder Scrolls games, why? because of the modding community. After seeing the success that Morrowind had with all its mods which added astronomical amounts of content, Bethesda seems to be thinking that they can just make any old Elder Scrolls game and it will be popular. Personally, if I were Bethesda I'd be saying to myself "Let's find popular mods that are similar for both Morrowind and Oblivion and try to incorporate their concepts into our new game." This would encourage the mod community to innovate and to look deeper at the game. If Bethesda did this then we could end up with one of the most awesome games of all time because it would be packed with more features than you can shake an enchanted stick at.
P.M.
Well, we certainly are impressed with what folks in the modding community come up with (on our blog, we feature interviews and updates as to what they're doing), and I'm sure plenty of folks here are actually inspired by what the mod community comes up with.

That said, I wouldn't say our team was "lazy" with Oblivion. As you've seen with each Elder Scrolls title, we try to change things up each time around. Oblivion wasn't just like Morrowind because we didn't like the idea of doing another Morrowind...we wanted to try something new. We hope that folks will enjoy the titles we put out, but we also know that we're not going to please everyone.
 

Worr Monger

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gstaff said:
That said, I wouldn't say our team was "lazy" with Oblivion. As you've seen with each Elder Scrolls title, we try to change things up each time around. Oblivion wasn't just like Morrowind because we didn't like the idea of doing another Morrowind...we wanted to try something new. We hope that folks will enjoy the titles we put out, but we also know that we're not going to please everyone.
I wouldn't go so far as to call the team lazy... that just wouldn't make sense with the massive detail within Oblivion. With such a large game, many aspects would be overlooked, I'm sure some things just have to be left out for the sake of releasing the game at some point.

I think the my overall disappointment with Oblivion is that it almost felt less like an RPG, and geared more toward action for the console players. I admit, Morrowind's biggest flaw would be the combat system for me, and I love Oblivion's combat. I enjoyed Oblivion, but I can't help but see it as a dumbed down version of Morrowind because of the many RPG elements in Morrowind that were left out for customizing a character.

It felt like.. no matter what kind of character you played, you could be anything... my sneaking, melee, and magic abilities were all top notch, I was unstoppable. And I could join any guild despite my class, it just didn't feel very customizable, nothing was very exclusive.

Another small disappointment for me was making all the races more humanoid-looking. Giving the Khajiit's and the Argonian's humanoid bodies just took me even more out of the fantasy. Morrowind also had a very diverse and foreign feeling within the environment, I felt like an outlander... Oblivion just.. never changed much throughout the game play.
 

Easykill

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I played Morrowind and Oblivion on Xbox, and they certainly weren't dumbing it down for my sake.
 

Worr Monger

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Easykill said:
I played Morrowind and Oblivion on Xbox, and they certainly weren't dumbing it down for my sake.
It was definitely more dumbed down compared to Morrowind. Whether they intended to do that for console players.. I don't know. It's just an assumption. I'm sure there are exceptions when it comes to the players, I would think that console players IN GENERAL... would prefer a faster paced game, which is what Oblivion feels like.

It seemed as if they were trying to make it more well rounded, and much easier for any player to pick up... grouping up the skills, focusing much more on action elements, making almost everything accessible to any class, the leveling system, etc.
 

Mr Wednesday

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This is my first escapist post, but as an avid TES fan and veteran of the old TES forums, I thought it best to wade in.

First points, Oblivion was a massively ambitious game, one that's grasp far outstretched its reach. And you know what? That is what makes Betheseda one of the best developers in the industry. A titanic effort went in Oblivion, which makes me a little sick when people accuse Beth of "selling out". Sell outs do not make games like Oblivion and Morrowind, they make sports games for EA, or lacklustre FPS sequels.

Is Oblivion a better *game* than Morrowind. Yes, absolutely, I agree whole heartedly on the vast majority of design decisions. I am perhaps what you'd call and RPG radical. I think the further we move away from turns and stats and such is a good thing. That familiar feeling f nausea wells up when I read suggestions that would make Oblivion, in my opinion, more like the awful JRPS I truly despise. Perhaps this is because I'm from the Half Life school of immersion. I don't like arbitrary "things" getting in the way of my game. Some in the RPG crowd, and from the posts, this topic, might consider me a worrying twitch freak who wants to turn TES into Halo, but nothing could be further from the truth. What really makes an RPG for me? Its not rolls or stats, its choices! The ability to make your own character. To do as you please. Then, to make that character part of a greater story in an imagined world.

So,think that I'm a fanboy by now? Well, consider this.
Oblivion is a better game, but I enjoyed Morrowind more.

Not only that, but though I agree with most of the design decisions, I disagree, rather vehemently, with their implementation. There are huge, huge issues in Oblivion. Many are balance issues, Beth just don't do balance, and then this leads to another major issue, for me, which is incentive. If levelling and getting phat loot becomes so easy, and if raiding temples, ruins and such, wich should and did make the core of TES, becomes unnecessary, people wont do it. Not only this, but there were barely any UNIQUE ITEMS. Alot of them in Morrowind were actually quest items, and you might stumble on them,(like Chrysamere) but Morrowind was full of this amazing feeling that in this next temple was something new and mysterious. If you were lucky, or had a guide(bad you), there often was. What is there in Oblibivion? Varla crystals?

The AI failed to my mind. An idea next time would be heavier scripting. I don't need NPCS with lives in my games, just the illusion of lives. I just need to think its real. This is a game after all.

And Balance too, like I said, Beth don't do it. Many enemies at higher levels have so much health, but do so little damage, that fighting them is an utter slog. It shouldn't be an endurance test.

And choices, my holy grail. Choices in Oblivion(and to be fair, Morrowind is even more guilty of this) are largely about where you begin. You choose to start as a mage then carry on, you choose to do the main quest then follow it on. What it really needs is some choice within quest arcs. Multiple endings, perhaps, although that isn't 100% necessary. Choice, but more choice! And by choice I mean important choices, not the choice between medium and heavy armor skill. Oblivion is not a substantialy worse game for lack of spears.(Unless you're a spear fanatic) It would have been nice, more customization means the character feels more your own. But please, spear freaks, be pragmatic. You don't outnumber us sword lovers, and Beth only has so much time.

Then there's the "flavour", a huge, complicated issue I'll just touch on. Oblivion lacks alot of the lore progression Morrowind had, and I loved Morrowinds libraries. Morrowind was also more exotic. I can see the issue here, and I agree to an large extent.

So, do I think Oblivion is worse than Morrowind? No, not at all. Oblivion is one of the best games of all time. Still, I enjoyed Morrowind more. Its Deus Ex territory. People hate Oblivion because it isn't Morrowind, and it isn't the hype. But it's massive and fun and charming and touching. The characterization, despite some rather dodgy arguments from Morrowind harcores, is much, much better, and that was the major issue for me before. Morrowind had its characters, sure, Vivec was cool and so was Jiub...oh, no, hang on. The much loved Jiub, that wasn't a character, he was a bit part. I rarely felt moved by Morrowinds characters, with the exception of the Tribunal ones, perhaps because they didn't physically speak much. Martin certainly isn't original or nuanced, but damn, I cared a lot more about him.

And its beautiful,truly utterly beautiful in a way no other game has ever been. Yes the graphics are good, so's are Crysis, that's pretty and realistic, but Oblivion? It is a true wonder. The forrests are carefully crafted,the ruins sombre, the skyline fanatic, the subtle shift to autumn colours as you head north, the sunsets, and the White-Gold tower! God, I can't help but be moved when I see it. This isn't graphics I'm talking about, its art.

When the expansion came, it looked like Morrowind, largely in what I feel was a tribute to many of the people in this topic that loved old Wvardenfell so much. But you know what? For me, it was a bit "meh".

Well, this has gone on a long while, and will undoubtedly make folks angry. I don't mean to, but I do have to note how history has repeated itself. The complaints being made about Oblivion echo those made about Morrowind by Daggerfall fans. Remember that. And also, think on this. Go and play Morrowind. I can't do it any more, I just can't, its no longer fun. Things change, I've changed, TES has changed, but they are, as always, truly great games.

My hope for the next TES?I want it to be a great game, but most importantly, I want it to be its own game. I don't want Oblivion again, and I certainly don't want Morrowind again.
 

Possum-Man

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gstaff said:
Well, we certainly are impressed with what folks in the modding community come up with (on our blog, we feature interviews and updates as to what they're doing), and I'm sure plenty of folks here are actually inspired by what the mod community comes up with.

That said, I wouldn't say our team was "lazy" with Oblivion. As you've seen with each Elder Scrolls title, we try to change things up each time around. Oblivion wasn't just like Morrowind because we didn't like the idea of doing another Morrowind...we wanted to try something new. We hope that folks will enjoy the titles we put out, but we also know that we're not going to please everyone.
I too am also almost constantly impressed by the majority of what the mod community comes up with and I've even done some myself.

Perhaps I was a little harsh with the word "lazy" and I probably should have been more specific about what I though was "off" with Oblivion, so here goes. Looking at Oblivion now, it doesn't seem all that different from Morrowind. It differs in big ways like graphics, physics(under-used though they may be), setting and story but not much else was truly "unique" to Oblivion. Really there needed to be more gameplay development, granted you changed the magic, stealth and combat systems, along with levelling etc but it didn't seem as developed as it could have been. I found that when I looked past all the pretty graphics and HDR Bloom-ification, Oblivion turned out to be little different from Morrowind. Honestly, tell me things, major things, that you could do in Oblivion which you couldn't do in Morrowind?

P.M.
 

Parallel Streaks

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Wow, my Thread is...popular? What's this strange feeling? Pride? Enjoyment? Food Poisoning?
Meh, well, that will be answered later, for now, I wanna cover something.

gstaff, I appreciate that the Team worked hard on Oblivion, and it had the makings of a great game, but the thing is you promised way too much. I like to call this Molyneux syndrome. You promised us Radiant AI, you delivered, you promised us good story-writing and free will, once again you delivered because Oblivion offered a wide range of alignment choices without making you stuck to one, to call back a Yahtzee quote "It either comes down to Mother Theresa or Baby-Eating", well you delivered the choice. But you left out many things, such as the fact that everything seems to force your character to be the completely willing Hero who is brave and skilled. Why not give us the option to try and escape this duty by fobbing it off on someone else? Or let your character join the Mythic Dawn, the Modding community thankfuly made up for this and gave us most of these things, but there are other issues. "Dumb NPCs", your supposedly intelligent NPC's have an annoying habit of being in the completely the wrong place at the completely the wrong time if they are on your team, if they come up against an enemy who hits them, some run away, meaning they just anger more creatures near them. "Fast-Travel" Like many people, I found it frustrating to romp across Mountains in Morrowind, but it was interesting enough to do it because of random creatures attacking you, but the Fast Travel feature seemed to remove all the effort, you may aswell lie down and have a cuppa instead of rushing off to the big battle because you can just touch a mark on your map and be propelled through space. Atleast Morrowind used "Dive Intervention" and other such spells to explain this, instead the game just seems to say "It wuz Voodoo!", I find that a Transporation system in more places would have easily fixed the problem.

Mr.Wednesday, I agree wholeheartedly with you in some areas, but in others my opinion differs. I guess it will always come down to pleasing a particular audience, and Bethesda have moved onto the more modern Gamer other than Dinosaurs like me who genuinely enjoyed maybe a monthly session of D&D, nothing overboard, just some fun. I wish there was more customisation just like you, but I think that defining your Characters background is quite satisfying, not just the Cliché three choices you find in, say, Mass Effect. Orphan, Neglected Son, Run-Away, the three backgrounds that still haunt RPG's, what happened to, say, a Rich child who was pampered and given swordsmanship lessons who is sent out by his Father to become a man on some sort of evangelical quest? Customisation is everything for me, I love to think of my Character never removing, say, a top hat, or always hiding his features, or always wearing a fine pair of silk gloves, or a cool looking scarf. I'm not saying turn TES into a Catwalk, just give us some individuality!

That was my rant for Today, come back tommorow to hear what other tosh I spout in mild annoyance!
 

Parallel Streaks

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Amen Brother, whenever I heard that screeching Caw, I cringed, and got ready a very long stick to whack it with. You're on your arse if you decide to be a short-blade class!
 

Easykill

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Cliff racers used to terrorize me. Then I tried spears. Spears are much more accurate than swords, and I walked to Balmora at level one killing everything I saw. Mudcrabs, Cliff racers, Kwama Scuttle and Foragers, even a Kwama Worker(that was a little difficult).
Level 5 I go to Vivec and use the levitate shrine to kill an Ordinater. You 30, 000 gold and the nicest medium armour in the game from one of them. At level 5. It's a piece of cake.
 

Parallel Streaks

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I humbly admit that the Levelling system could be ludicrous, like when I, ahem, accidentally went on a killing spree near the gate to Red Mountain, accidentally killed the armor-smith, and accidentally happily ran off with the Glass armor that resided on the shelves ^_^'